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I'm writing this because since the 9/11 Memoriam thread that was created a few days ago. It's sparked major interest in myself about the whole ordeal. Mainly because back when this originally happened, I was very ignorant and simply didn't care about what happened. Even though I had a obscure family member involved, I didn't know them, and I simply didn't care. I was young and foolish.
Over the past year I've grown a lot more sympathetic and I find myself affected by things that usually wouldn't of affected me. 9/11 is one of those things. Maybe it's just because of my previous ignorance towards it that it's coming back to haunt me. I'm not sure why this has happened really, but I've become a better person.
Anyways as for my original blog topic. I've recently been looking at photos and videos of what happened on that tragic day. The main thing thats been interesting me is those, who committed suicide that day.
"The Jumpers" They were faced with the worst and last decisions of their lives. It was either death by agonizing fire, or a quick and painless death if they jumped out their windows. This choice started to make me think...
"Two Minutes of Hell, and you're in Heaven."
What would you of done in that situation?
I personally probably would have jumped, the fall wouldn't be nearly as bad as being burnt alive...
Then this rose another question.
Well wait, that would be considered suicide then. By my religious views, suicide is the worst thing anyone can do.
Would "God" really punish a person and send them to hell for choosing that option that over 200 people chose that day?
Technically it is suicide, no matter how you look at it. Even though it was the lesser of two evils. It's still suicide.
Now look, I don't follow any specific religion, so by those standards I'm going to hell anyways. However I follow my own guide lines and I live by them the best I can. I've created my own sins which I try to avoid. But by other religion standards, suicide is a very bad thing as well.
I want to know what other people think of what I've said. Religious and non-religious.
I personally would hate a God that would send some one to hell for that. It makes me sick thinking about it.
*Please try to keep any of that conspiracy bullshit out of this blog.*
 
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That is a really rough concept right there...
I don't think God would send you to hell if you did that. If it was me, I would jump and then pray during the few seconds that I fell. That is really depressing, though, and I really wish I had more of an argument or something other than "well, imo...".
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ofc i would jump!
there are no such things as heaven and hell :D !
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It's not suicide. You jump to prevent yourself from buring to death, not to kill yourself. Suicide is defined as the intentional taking of one's own life. As the jumpers didn't jump to kill themselves, but rather to escape death, the intent isn't there.
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I'd have jumped, definitely. I'm not real religious, but do believe in a God. I just hate the Catholic church (and any organized religion for that matter). In my mind, God will forgive you most things, this included.
But by definition, it's definitely suicide. It's not with the same intent as cutting your wrists or something, but you're still deliberately killing yourself with full knowledge. I'm almost tempted to ask a religious person what would happen to these people, except I think the answer would make me mad.
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Calgary25993 Posts
Yes it is suicide. It's making a conscious decision to kill yourself.
I wouldn't have jumped because I probably wouldn't have known how bad the fires were and would hold on hoping someone was coming to rescue me.
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To answer to the best of my abilities: no, God would not punish you for that. This is assuming, however, that you do accept Jesus as Savior. Notice, however, I did not say Christian; I don't even know what exactly defines a christian, but you can follow whatever belief you want to follow as long as Jesus is involved as center. After that, no sin will be so great that you're going to hell (my friend argued there's one possible exception that you completely denounce Jesus as Savior).
Yes, suicide is possibly one of the greatest sins one can commit. Still, God should not and does not waver once he takes you in as his own; there is no "points" system for sinning to destroy your chances of going to heaven.
^ That's the best I can answer within religion. It's been a while since I've shared my beliefs, but this is how I've been taught and what I'd learned over the years of my spiritually inquisitive life. My views conflict against the somewhat traditional "How much good" vs "How much bad" you've done in your life type of view.
EDIT: There's your answer, Hawk :o
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hahha, its similiar to my view =p. Im sure theres a lot of hard core christians who will disagree with us, so it seems like theres no one right answer there.
i still cant get that video outta my head.
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I think the difference is that in one situation you desire to die, whereas in the other situation you're going to die anyways but want a bit of mercy.
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On September 14 2007 21:51 chicken` wrote:
ofc i would jump!
there are no such things as heaven and hell :D !
What if the person jumping was a Jew? No heaven or hell for them, eh!
:D
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
hum, I can share a few thoughts but I have no good opinion on the theological dilemma (which I strongly suspect has been addressed extensively in the different religions it may present one):
i) most die of smoke inhalation in fires, i.e. become unconscious before getting massive burns; some I guess might know this and make a conscious decision to breath in smoke in higher air layers of a room etc...
ii) the jumpers usually are those in direct contact with flames and with access so they do have a better choice of going.
iii) the keyword is "choice" and while your alive there is still always hope, so I guess even if you are flying down the building side, there may still be those that hope.
iv) also at least some jumpers probably didn't make a conscious decision but rather followed their instincts.
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IF you jump you could get lucky and survive the fall (i mean i keep hearing stories about people who survive a freefall jump out of a plane or accidently fell out of a appartmentbuilding) whereas if you stay you were sure to die by either suffocation or death by burning.
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ummm...theres not a person on this planet that could survive a 100+ story fall
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On September 15 2007 01:59 Hawk wrote:
ummm...theres not a person on this planet that could survive a 100+ story fall
Unless there was the biggest cushion in the world waiting for them at the bottom.
But wait...even then, would the initial impact be too great to survive, even against the softest material on earth?
And I know people can die before even hitting anything. A teacher I once had told me about death during the trip down.
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People have chosen suicide in almost every culture since God knows when. From the days where citizens of cities would kill themselves rather than being murdered by invading hordes / legions. Even to the point of murdering their own wives/children's so that they wouldn't be subjugated to torture.
I believe theres different levels of suicide. Being split into three catagories. First being that the suicide was entirely guilt related. A person killing themselves to bring guilt / suffering to another individual. Which in my book is the worst level of suicide. The next suicide is due to mental illness / defect. And the third is suicide being the lesser of two evils. Choosing a concious decision to end your life to further the trancision to the afterlife rather than being subjugated to another form of evil.
So if God chooses to persecute all suicides, then thats a God I would not want to believe in.
Anyways, this is just my opinion, in no way does it get skewed by religious views, seeing that I have none.
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It would be almost impossible to willingly allow yourself to be burnt to death. Torture by fire will make a person do anything to alleviate the pain. People who say they would never renounce their god, kill themselves, or any number of things, have never faced extreme torture like those people who jumped did.
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On September 15 2007 02:40 Lycaeus wrote:
People have chosen suicide in almost every culture since God knows when. From the days where citizens of cities would kill themselves rather than being murdered by invading hordes / legions. Even to the point of murdering their own wives/children's so that they wouldn't be subjugated to torture.
I believe theres different levels of suicide. Being split into three catagories. First being that the suicide was entirely guilt related. A person killing themselves to bring guilt / suffering to another individual. Which in my book is the worst level of suicide. The next suicide is due to mental illness / defect. And the third is suicide being the lesser of two evils. Choosing a concious decision to end your life to further the trancision to the afterlife rather than being subjugated to another form of evil.
So if God chooses to persecute all suicides, then thats a God I would not want to believe in.
Anyways, this is just my opinion, in no way does it get skewed by religious views, seeing that I have none.
You forgot about the 4th, most obvious one. People who dont want to live anymore aka emo bitches who cant deal with their problems.
And i agree with sr18 in this situation, because you are jumping to avoid burning/sure death, not to kill yourself. I'm sure all of those people woke up expecting to see the day through. And it IS possible to live, so as long as the jumped without INTENT to die, even if thats what they were EXPECTING.
Link of person who survived 12,000 ft skydiving w/ failed parachute http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=435377&in_page_id=1&in_page_id=1&expand=true
Another account commented in the article :
"When a novice, my son had an accident many years ago when his parachute and reserve both failed - he survived a 2,000ft fall - he had a bruised shoulder. He went on to make many many more jumps and became an instructor."
And wikihow on how to survive a long fall:
http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Long-Fall
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Even though suicide is looked upon a bad way in Catholicism or Christianity, I would have jumped and just died a quick, painful death. But it is so sad that you have to make a decision, because either way you are to die :\
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I don't understand this. I think the people who jumped had an option correct? No outside force was pushing them out, they did this on their own free will. So that's considered suicide...Ok for those who did have the option to jump but didn't and burned to death, would they be considered a suicide too?
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I talked about this with my family shortly after the events.
I think that the people who jumped really had that choice (which you may survive by some miracle), or death. The longest freefall survival was in ww2 i think, 2 planes collided about 35k feet up and one woman survived somehow so.. there is always some hope I suppose.
I prefer to look at it this way rather than someone just killing themself to avoid pain.
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On September 15 2007 07:17 Headlines wrote:
I don't understand this. I think the people who jumped had an option correct? No outside force was pushing them out, they did this on their own free will. So that's considered suicide...Ok for those who did have the option to jump but didn't and burned to death, would they be considered a suicide too?
They didn't take their own life. They did everything they could to avoid inevitable death (the flames burning them). I'm pretty sure you have a better chance of surviving a few hundred foot fall than being burned in jet fuel for an hour and then having millions of tons of building collapse on top of you. And yes, by your logic, standing in the fire would have been suicide because they chose to be burned alive instead of escaping the flames.
No one stood in the fire in order to die, just like no one jumped in order to die. They did what they did with the intention of maximizing survival chance (in their opinion) and reducing immediate pain.
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It said in the bible that nothing can seperate you from the love of God, so I guess God would accept you, I mean if you think about it...
Burning in flames for 2 minutes isnt considered suicide really, you can't help it!
Throwing yourself is though, but yeah its a hard question.
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On September 15 2007 12:40 il0seonpurpose wrote:
It said in the bible that nothing can seperate you from the love of God, so I guess God would accept you, I mean if you think about it...
Burning in flames for 2 minutes isnt considered suicide really, you can't help it!
Throwing yourself is though, but yeah its a hard question.
It's considered suicide if its the 100% way to die and you choose it over the 99.99999999999% chance to die
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On September 15 2007 12:52 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2007 12:40 il0seonpurpose wrote:
It said in the bible that nothing can seperate you from the love of God, so I guess God would accept you, I mean if you think about it...
Burning in flames for 2 minutes isnt considered suicide really, you can't help it!
Throwing yourself is though, but yeah its a hard question. It's considered suicide if its the 100% way to die and you choose it over the 99.99999999999% chance to die
In that case the people that jumped did not commit suicide, as people have survived longer falls.
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i loled at this thread
the action in question (the jump) does not matter. what matter is the mind set in which that occurs.
i will not write half a page of explanations instead i'll leave you to contemplate an example: a guy puts a gun to his head, pulls the trigger but does not die. from the fact that he (could have) survived and by your logic the guy would go to heaven.
cheers.
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EPT
