|
On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla.
erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that
|
On September 16 2014 05:25 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 20:57 Trumpet wrote:... I understand the argument you're trying to make, but after the last couple weeks of game journalism ethics witch hunting, are you really citing the Official Xbox Magazine saying Xbox Live totally doesn't have a sexism problem? You realize the piece you read is effectively an ad, not some independent investigative journalism thing, right? Also from 2005, although focusing on WoW instead of XBL: The majority of players interviewed experienced sexism on a regular basis,
and this sexism often interfered with their normal game play, in terms of being
followed or harassed for a long period of time, or even in some cases excluded or
discriminated against in group settings. Studying sexism in virtual worlds was
thought to be relevant in virtual worlds by the majority of those interviewed, if for no
other reason than “sexism in any culture or subculture is revealing about the
phenomenon itself.”
Source There totally was a sexism problem (and I assume still is) – I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I don't even think this article meant to imply otherwise. One in ten games encountering such horrible comments that they couldn't print them is WAY too often, and it must be total hell dealing with that every time you sign on in a game. I didn't mean to say there wasn't sexism back then. If anything my point was that it's ALWAYS been there, and it's not just a recent response to some kind of demographic transition. I've heard stories from girls in various games about how awful it was (Edit: and, again, I assume it still is) – occasional harassment, frequent disbelief, all-too-common awkward come-ons and joking marriage proposals. Xbox Live at the time was infamous for having awful people anyway – being a girl just made you a target. Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 02:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
You realize it's a complete fabrication that anyone who reviewed depression quest slept with zoe quinn right? The single article she's mentioned in isn't a review and was written before their alleged affair. Why do people keep bringing up "reviewers sleeping with devs" for this game rate debacle? It never happened in the first place lol Correct. As I understand it she wasn't even accused of getting with anyone besides Nathan Grayson, who only ever wrote about her once when he quoted her in an article, and that was before they dated. Everything the internet has thrown at her as been completely unwarranted and awful, and it's really none of our business who she's sleeping with because there are precisely zero ethical issues.
If there was any legitimate concerns over ethics the vitriol would be directed all at Grayson, not Anita and Zoe anyway. But it isn't isn't and there has been absolutely no breaches of journalistic ethics in this case anyway.
|
On September 16 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that
I'm pretty sure he did catch that, and that's why he left out things like awkward come-ons and marriage proposals, because teenage/early 20s guys don't tend to use those things as a way to rile up other guys in multiplayer games, they instead call them gay homo fags and insinuate that they are struggling to hold their controller and play the game at the same time as hosting a massive gay bukkake orgy, or make fun of them for being virgins who are only playing because they can't get laid, or some other mostly male specific insult. Now, what is true is that flames from guys to guys tend to be highly based in sexual preference 'humor' and is pretty much the source of the somewhat separate debate about how we treat LGBT people in the gaming community, but to say men don't ever receive any sort of 'harassment' pointed specifically at their gender seems incorrect. As a portion of just general insulting, is it a lower occurrence? Almost certainly, but you're the one who said 'never.'
|
On September 16 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that
my point exactly. It's not just neutral flames, but harassment because of gender. Only because it sounds more familiar doesn't make it less important/offending/whatever. It's a double standard.
|
On September 16 2014 07:27 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that my point exactly. It's not just neutral flames, but harassment because of gender. Only because it sounds more familiar doesn't make it less important/offending/whatever. It's a double standard.
The context of our society makes it different. It's the same reason why calling a black person the N-word is far different than a black person making fun of you for being white or calling you a cracker. If you can't understand that, then you have no grasp on the context of gender relations and power at all.
|
On September 16 2014 14:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 07:27 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that my point exactly. It's not just neutral flames, but harassment because of gender. Only because it sounds more familiar doesn't make it less important/offending/whatever. It's a double standard. The context of our society makes it different. It's the same reason why calling a black person the N-word is far different than a black person making fun of you for being white or calling you a cracker. If you can't understand that, then you have no grasp on the context of gender relations and power at all.
But what if a hispanic person calls a pacific islander a nigger? Is that okay? I just need to clear these things up.
|
|
|
On September 16 2014 14:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 07:27 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that my point exactly. It's not just neutral flames, but harassment because of gender. Only because it sounds more familiar doesn't make it less important/offending/whatever. It's a double standard. The context of our society makes it different. It's the same reason why calling a black person the N-word is far different than a black person making fun of you for being white or calling you a cracker. If you can't understand that, then you have no grasp on the context of gender relations and power at all.
Now racism is the same as sexual harassment? I'm confused. You use Judith Butler arguments as if these were universally true or could be used on the internet culture at all. I'm not sure YOU have a grasp of gender relations and power at all.
On September 16 2014 15:38 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:
endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. I would agree with you that there are some people, mostly found on tumblr, that take their labels too far. However, cis- and trans- are important prefixes. Without the word "transgender", how do you refer to to a transgender person? Speaking only of transwomen here, what would you call them if that term didn't exist? - "woman with a penis" - "crossdresser" - "transvestite" - "transsexual" - "shemale" or "tranny" I would be offended if anyone was to say those to me. Transsexual is the most neutral one, but I haven't had genital surgery so it's inaccurate, and the term is also used alongside the last two in "adult video". Similarly, how would you refer to a person with two X chromosomes woman in a crowd of transgender women? "That woman over there is the only one in the crowd with neither a penis or surgically-created canal between their legs". Or, if you accept "trans" as a legitimate prefix, "the not-trans woman" doesn't really work either. And no one takes a blood test of everyone before they would say "he" or "she", so choosing your words based on their biological sex is meaningless and inaccurate. No one's asking you to remember exactly what agender demiqueer dragonkin means, but I think that refusing to use "cis" or "trans" is just stupid.
It was phrased incorrectly by me. Happens. I wanted to stress out how much I loathe gender related phrasings in mails/texts/abstracts. There's a huge discussion about that in Germany. As if that mattered for anyone or if that would help to soothe the fight of opposing sexes. It's bullshit and mostly nobody can understand but "feminists".
|
On September 16 2014 16:35 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 14:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 16 2014 07:27 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that my point exactly. It's not just neutral flames, but harassment because of gender. Only because it sounds more familiar doesn't make it less important/offending/whatever. It's a double standard. The context of our society makes it different. It's the same reason why calling a black person the N-word is far different than a black person making fun of you for being white or calling you a cracker. If you can't understand that, then you have no grasp on the context of gender relations and power at all. Now racism is the same as sexual harassment? I'm confused. You use Judith Butler arguments as if these were universally true or could be used on the internet culture at all. I'm not sure YOU have a grasp of gender relations and power at all. Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 15:38 Onekobold wrote:On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:
endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. I would agree with you that there are some people, mostly found on tumblr, that take their labels too far. However, cis- and trans- are important prefixes. Without the word "transgender", how do you refer to to a transgender person? Speaking only of transwomen here, what would you call them if that term didn't exist? - "woman with a penis" - "crossdresser" - "transvestite" - "transsexual" - "shemale" or "tranny" I would be offended if anyone was to say those to me. Transsexual is the most neutral one, but I haven't had genital surgery so it's inaccurate, and the term is also used alongside the last two in "adult video". Similarly, how would you refer to a person with two X chromosomes woman in a crowd of transgender women? "That woman over there is the only one in the crowd with neither a penis or surgically-created canal between their legs". Or, if you accept "trans" as a legitimate prefix, "the not-trans woman" doesn't really work either. And no one takes a blood test of everyone before they would say "he" or "she", so choosing your words based on their biological sex is meaningless and inaccurate. No one's asking you to remember exactly what agender demiqueer dragonkin means, but I think that refusing to use "cis" or "trans" is just stupid. It was phrased incorrectly by me. Happens. I wanted to stress out how much I loathe gender related phrasings in mails/texts/abstracts. There's a huge discussion about that in Germany. As if that mattered for anyone or if that would help to soothe the fight of opposing sexes. It's bullshit and mostly nobody can understand but "feminists".
No, I'm saying male on female sexual harassment takes place in a particular context - one in which women are threatened by threats and harassment in a way men aren't. Just because the subject of the joke is the same doesn't it mean it does or should have the same impact. You don't see why a female gamer might respond differently to rape jokes or threats?
|
On September 16 2014 07:16 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:On September 16 2014 06:21 GeckoXp wrote:On September 16 2014 05:07 ComaDose wrote:
[...]stat when the opposite is never. [...] That's kind of a double standard. I can't even count how often I was told to suck someone's dick, question about my sexual orientation and whatnot. Only because it seems more acceptable that males engage males with these flames, doesn't make them any less of a sexual assault. Not that'd I'd personally complain about that, I'd just shrug it off. Aside from that, all the eGender related topics bore me. People actively seeking fights online just for the fight's sake ("to be right") just have too much time. There are far worse real problems related to gender than game design, "serious esport journalism" (huge lol here), or any human vs. troll conduct debates or the endless idiocy surrounding "the correct" phrasing of cis-/trans-/pan- blabla. erm the dots before said "harassed about their gender" im not sure if you caught that I'm pretty sure he did catch that, and that's why he left out things like awkward come-ons and marriage proposals, because teenage/early 20s guys don't tend to use those things as a way to rile up other guys in multiplayer games, they instead call them gay homo fags and insinuate that they are struggling to hold their controller and play the game at the same time as hosting a massive gay bukkake orgy, or make fun of them for being virgins who are only playing because they can't get laid, or some other mostly male specific insult. Now, what is true is that flames from guys to guys tend to be highly based in sexual preference 'humor' and is pretty much the source of the somewhat separate debate about how we treat LGBT people in the gaming community, but to say men don't ever receive any sort of 'harassment' pointed specifically at their gender seems incorrect. As a portion of just general insulting, is it a lower occurrence? Almost certainly, but you're the one who said 'never.'
I'm not sure calling someone gay is bashing on them about their gender. I understand the argument that men are typically more defensive about their sexuality and homophobic making it a more "targeted" insult. But there is a big difference about getting insulted because you are a woman and getting insulted like you are a man. No one is going to say "oh look its a dude, why don't you get back in the lumber mill, you're only good for sucking my cock". The entire preface that being gay is a bad thing is constructed by men in the first place. I'm saying women get flack for being a woman while men do not get flack for being men. Its not "harassment based on gender" @GeckoXp
Edit: because people are not making fun of people for being men.
i guess i shouldn't say "never" i guess i could imagine a female dominated game that would have its own set of trolls that do insult men just for being men, and it would be equally wrong to do that. I can't think of one though, but I would wager it would be less than 1% of the volume seen in the reverse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
