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A lot of discussion have been firing up around TI4 grand finale quality, most of it coming from Twitch chat and reddit; two of the most uncivilised places to have a discussion. Here are some thoughts regarding TI4 as a whole:
Not all the finals will inspire a thousand songs
It's painful to admit, but this final is objectively a less entertaining final than last year's one... and probably TI2 one aswell. But this by no means this was a bad final, even if I can't tell what exactly is needed to put a final in the "bad" category.
This was close of how a final is usually played in any sports or even, any competition. Not all of the super-bowl matches were great, not all of the Champions League finals were great, same can be said by NBA or a Tennis final.
The metagame IMHO is not even close to be a problem. Lycan is maybe the only one since his ban-rate was just stupid.
Something that I can't understand is when teams call this 'the push meta'. I don't know if I'm watching another game, but even if push was successfull, is not the leasing metagame. I think is not correct to use one team as example of a successfull strategy, since this strategy is all about an almost perfect execution.
And that's looks more like the meta: execution. It's sounds simplistic and lacking some deep, but I think is you recall lots of matches under this patch you will remember teams like EG, some flashes by Fnatic and some 'rektz' by iG and DK.
One last thing: tournaments metagames are always kind of funny to see.
Format hurts hype as much as teams playing on stage
I will say it: yes we would loved to see Na'vi, C9, Fnatic and obviously Liquid making it through the playoffs. Reality is that some of them were not ready for the big deal, but wait...
Considering that we had at one point 10 teams qualified (VG, EG, DK, C9, iG, Navi, Titan, Liquid, LGD and Newbee if I recall correctly) I think Valve could have done something more traditional and allow all of these teams at least 1 shot in the main event... BUT I guess Key Arena schedule had another plan. More in deep, I think that there's nothing you can do about the finals being not-as-awesome as the TI3 finals, but I think you can make the Main Event a little bit less elitist and entertain more people sacrificing very little.
Last TI felt a little bit closer to me
Ok I did not attend at the event, so people can smash me saying I'm drawing conclusions even if I was not there. But for example, Kaci was on camera around 120 minutes last international, uneless I'm terrible mistaken, I would be surprised if she was more than 90 minutes in camera. By this I want to make a point considering the lack of community content during the stream, I felt like considering the playoffs at the hotel I saw almost only the panel and the games. Is not like I want to be an ass but I think that mora camera time in random stuff around the Key arena or Hotel could had gone super cool. This is not considering other websites interviews or clips on youtube.
In general, I'm really happy with this International and I know Valve will find ways to fix what they can fix, and mantain the cool things. In terms of metagame, I think the tournament was awesome, with the exception of the finals. We saw a lot of cool stuff working and not working, some big plays like Universe Chronospheres, Chuan Arrows or the SingSing Laguna Blade dodge with Ember Spirit. It was a great International overall but probably not the greatest ever.
Still, looking for the next year TI and a whole new season of competitive dota!
See you later lovely TL community!
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Double Elimination = Bad for Hype.
Seirously, i don't get it... Yeah, it's "fair"... But no "real" Sport gives a shit about this.
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On July 23 2014 16:03 Velr wrote:
Double Elimination = Bad for Hype.
Seirously, i don't get it... Yeah, it's "fair"... But no "real" Sport gives a shit about this.
I'd argue this is completely false. There's nothing more hypeable than a losers bracket run.
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Yeah, but everything before the loser bracket is boring.
Loser Bracket Run = Single Elimination Tournament.
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I don't know if the bracket would have worked with an extra two teams, but it does seem a shame that both liquid and titan who tried so hard in the first round should be kicked out so unceremoniously in the bubble.
Give everyone a shot at the main stage. If there are time constraints I can't see why the main event can't be single elim.
More main stage action, more booth viewage, more team intro vids (with less depressing Xfactor style dota-pro sob stories plz volvo) = hype.
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As a whole TI4 was done pretty nicely, even though the finals were disappointing, all the other games were very entertaining, well most of them anyways.
What this TI failed to do, at least for me and my friends that we were watching together, is capture the atmosphere in Key Arena. I know this is kind of hard to do if you're not personally there, but it didnt feel, I guess the right word would be, empty, or as you say it, closer to home, compared to previous years (bar TI1 ofc). I'm 100% sure that for the people who attended there the event was beyond their wildest dreams, but for the people watching at home it felt kind of .. empty that's the best word I got right now. Personally, I thought the panel was overdone, and for something that took 90% of the downtime it was flat and not that interesting, in fact I think it was pretty boring. I think this space could have been filled up with more interviews with players, coaches, team owners, Valve staff or random fans that were there. They could have even made a cosplay competition where we can vote the best costume, or anything along the lines of fun and not related to the games.
So for next TI I'd like Valve to try and capture the spectacle for the viewers at home and Gaben to cosplay any hero of his choice, probably Pudge would fit him well :D
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> farm/slow games - "omfg too slow"
> fast strats/push - "omfg too fast"
> valve brings girls for free bjs while watching ti - "omfg dick too moist"
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User was warned for this post
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I absolutely agree the scale of the live event was not leveraged well, in multiple ways. For one thing, even though we all know there are many opportunities to do so, the cameras never showed the crowd during a match. The overall quality of the panels and the interviews were also not up to par. These things were executed in a way that simply did not reflect the fact that they were hosting a historic tournament with a huge live audience. Both Kaci and James were frequently creating awkwardness instead of hype. The panel did not seem to always be on top of when the match was starting, which is the most important thing - and since they are speaking to the stadium and not just home audience it is part of keeping the hype going even after game 1.
I really don't think James should come back, I heard he has already said he probably won't. I'd like to see Jess replace Kaci. I think the production crew should be expanded to the point they can provide more consistent highlights, and also be more ready to jump to split screen when you have multiple fights going on at once.
The point of Newbee's fan momentum having broken is a good one. Even if they kept everything about the competitive brackets the same (which I think would be fine) I don't think they had to run the winners bracket until Saturday if they didn't want to, which would seem better from a spectator perspective.
It's questionable whether making group stage BO2 would be better from a spectator perspective or not. A lot of the competitors would like to see it. It would have upped the week 1 games to 240+ which is crazy but workable from an administrative viewpoint. The idea that was floated to break it into two pools and have BO2 isn't good imo, as it will inevitably lead to unbalanced pools.
The money is a big deal. There is no guarantee any of the bottom eight teams get enough out of this to keep playing until next year, and without keeping competition consistent from 9-16 it's hard to guarantee overall competition will be as good next year as it was this year. Hopefully sponsors and team orgs help cover the gap but with that amount of money on the line there's no reason to not push some of it further down the brackets. The idea that #8 deserves 10x as much as #9 is baffling to me, and the idea that 15-16 don't deserve to get paid at all when they had to bust their asses and compete just to get to that spot is also just wrong.
Valve also needs to be thinking *right now* about how to repeat the fundraising success of this year. I think they should double the starting pool and use that extra money to move viable money all the way through the bottom of the bracket. Then they should have a lot of MUCH BETTER stretch goals. The second round of stretch goals was mostly garbage. Gotta have this shit sorted out and keep the hype going.
Basically it's not acceptable for the pool to shrink immediately next year, even as spectacular as this year's was. The pool has to grow and the event has to be done on the next level of professionality. The hype train has to keep going through the event. How TI5 goes is going to be extremely important to the future of the sport. Thankfully some of the most difficult issues - inconsistent caster/panel pool - will sort themselves out over time as pro players with big personalities retire. The rest is up to Valve.
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@vler @articraven
Hard to tell isn't it? The UP/LB format comes from the need of more matches and some kind of 'fairness' to allow teams that performed well to have a second chance to prove themselves.... or at least I think it is.
@hoepie
In general you think the same way I do, one cheap way to hype the people is giving them what they want, see TL or other popular team in the mainstage. For that you need to make the cut a little lower.
@freakydroid
Dude, you got my point completely, I think the same way as you! Last TI was better in terms of community content.
@n0ise
lol
@fhdh
I belive you are overthinking it but most of your points are right to me. Format of both the stream and the tournament kind of damaged the final product in terms of 'feeling like being there'.
TY for your answers
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I don't really understand what the gripe is about the format. I love it. The round robin stage had tons of action. Literally every time had a legit shot to qualify. Eventual winners Newbee almost didn't even make it out. LGD barely managed to sneak in and upset one of the favorites, iG. Liquid, whom many already chalked up as a 16-14th place finisher, almost managed to make it to the main event. There was a lot of excitement and tension; I for one tried to watch every single match in the tournament.
As for the finals, I think people are more upset that a team they did no research on won the finals. Well boo fucking hoo. Do some research next time. Sylar is a baller carry player; I've been a big fan of VG for a while. They definitely had talent, and I was expecting them to make a run similar to what they did this TI. The only doubts I had can be attributed to their faulty play in the month leading up to TI4. Similarly, I'm surprised (but in a way I'm not) that people didn't realize Newbee was the best team coming into TI4. 2 Days after SL9 finals, Newbee plays DK, crushes them, and has been on a rampage ever since then. Anyone who spends an hour a week following the professional DotA scene would know these things. And I don't understand why people get upset when the finals don't turn out the way they want. The last Superbowl sucked. The Broncos got blown out. Superbowls in the past have sucked, and they will suck in the future. Boo fucking hoo. Sometimes a team gets outplayed, and they get completely steamrolled. That's just the way it goes sometimes. I just don't understand why people can't be happy that a team gave such a superior and dominant showing all through the main event, stand up, and applaud it.
It just annoys me how many whiners there are. TI4 isn't hurting DotA and e-sports. The whiners are.
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The issue with TI4 is very simple, it's surprising valve even considered letting it happen.
The bracket(s) did not have a logical progression towards the finals.
IE:
bubble bracket: first series of each day was ridiculously intense, single elimination. Second two series have less and less at stake each
Final bracket: Who on earth ever thought it was a good idea to play out the entire winners bracket before the losers bracket. That absolutely KILLS the growing tension in the tournaments. day one you see teams play all the way up to getting into the finals, then the next day drops back down to being for 7th/8th.
The problem this creates twofold, its hard to follow a team's progression through the relatively confusing up and down nature of the multiple brackets. In a normal bracket each match has higher stakes, more hype, and more desperation from each team than the last. The stakes are linearly getting higher through the tournament. In TI4 the stakes shot up and down, leaving viewers relatively unable to "get in the mood".
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The post TI realization that this won't happen again for another year just hit me.
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As a whole I didn't enjoyed this TI much. Last year and the year before it was bascially sleep->watch TI->sleep, this time I just didn't care 
The format was bad, well it was worse than last year (one finalist set in day 1, why). The games on average weren't that great. The crowd wasn't that great. The atmosphere watching from home wasn't great. The panel wasn't that great. Valve made more money tho. Give me my TI2 and 3 back I guess ?
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I think the format was the biggest issue.
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Just have a Single elimiation bracket.
That way you can have all the 16 teams on Key Arena.
You can use this year RR for seeding. 1st place chooses his opponent from the last spots.
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@morton
Yeh the brackets were kind of weird, even if they were not rocket science the idea is "he lose, he goes home OR get a second chance" in all of the BO3 matches... it's just feels more natural
@MrCon
I think you are overkilling it, but you are right about the crowd and some other issues. I've readed people was complaining about the secret shot, I don't really know, but it was kind of weak. Still, I disagree on games, I think we had more better games than last years, but the finals were a big blow.
@Comeh
Simple words, simple problem, difficult answer... I guess they can 'normalize' the format
@tmg26
Don't know what you mean by RR (some kind of ranking?) I think qualifiers are cool. And I think they will actually think about single-brackets, but they need to release the info about it A LOT before TI5 so teams can adapt that... or even some tournaments can take that format.
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I thought the format was great. It was designed to get the best teams to the finals. Double Elimination is fair. Navi just didn't play well and didn't deserve it. THe finals did suck but VG clearly was playing better than everyone but NewBee and deserved it. As far as the community camera stuff. That is cool and all. They could have done a few player pieces, showed what was going on around the arena. Overall the event was good I thought.
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On July 25 2014 23:33 HeeroFX wrote:
I thought the format was great. It was designed to get the best teams to the finals. Double Elimination is fair. Navi just didn't play well and didn't deserve it. THe finals did suck but VG clearly was playing better than everyone but NewBee and deserved it. As far as the community camera stuff. That is cool and all. They could have done a few player pieces, showed what was going on around the arena. Overall the event was good I thought.
The format was fine, though I think the upper bracket finals should definitely have been played on the second day instead.
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On July 24 2014 02:56 n0ise wrote:
> farm/slow games - "omfg too slow"
> fast strats/push - "omfg too fast"
> valve brings girls for free bjs while watching ti - "omfg dick too moist"
...
User was warned for this post
I dunno why he got warned, he pretty much got the point (well, maybe I know why :D)... Do whatever you want, people will always find "good" reasons to complain.
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I liked Ti4... up until the point where VG had 1-0 advantage versus C9 in Bo3 as well as LGD vs DK.
Wonky fucking format made for viewers and not for competition. If you make a double elimination, you can expect 2 teams to run into each other twice, at that point one team should be able to beat the other regardless of the previous match or place in the bracket.
Double elimination > not fair, but hey there's viewers
Single elimination > fair, but hey there's no viewers (less viewers)
Many don't agree with me and many totally disagree with me but I'd put group stage into single elimination any day. 4 groups for 4, 2 advance into single elim. witch would be exactly 31 match overall in the tournament.
No advantages, no disadvantages, you win you live, you lose you go home and find something else to do for a living.
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I totally agree to Morton, Bubble bracket was kinda meaningless aside from the first day and playing out the winner's bracket final two days before the final was really bad for the flow. The lumi as commentator cast wasnt the best idea either and I really dont get how ESL managed to get up to 4 pro-players or ex-proplayers in the analyst desk and valve often failed to get a single one.
I think showing the standings more often would have been better as well, I had to look it up a lot on liquipedia.
I really like double elimination from a viewer's perspective, but I dont like that wb advantage, especially not in bo3s.
@meta: I think there are two points to consider. One is that thanks to the popularity of pushing lineups pretty much every one position hard carry that doesnt come online within the first 20 minutes didnt have any impact, aside from naga. Whether that's a good thing is up to you to decide.
The second point is that most games in ti felt like stomps, even between evenly matched teams. I would really like to see a bit of rebalancing of things like tower gold or rosh exp to make the game less one-sided.
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The best format so far, designed to produce the finals betwean the best teams. I hope it won't be changed. The games throughout the event were so good. Keep with good work Valve!
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EPT
