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Recently I've been delving into English grammar a lot and just thinking about what I say and how to rationalise things said by others. So far, I've found it fascinating to come at the analysis of a language from a native speaker's perspective. One interesting thought I've had for a while is past tense questions for present tense issues.
For example, I've found myself saying things like, "Did you want a biscuit?" or something when I'm grabbing a biscuit and asking someone else if they want one. It's happening right now, yet I sometimes seem to use "did" instead of "do".
The only thoughts I have come up with (assuming my English isn't horribly incorrect) are that a) It is a less direct way of asking someone for their intention or thought, e.g. if I say, "What did you want to do today?", that seems less direct and somewhat less confrontational than "What do you want to do today?" So perhaps it is a method of increasing politeness of some sort.
My other thought is b) Perhaps since an intention or an idea was formed in the past, the desire or thought is still referred to in the past tense because that was its origin. For example, returning to the biscuit example, the other party could have looked at me when I grabbed a biscuit, giving me a signal via body language that they desired a biscuit and hence the origin of their desire preceded my asking of their desire.
I'm not sure, but I feel like both explanations may somewhat be correct, but who knows, maybe they're both wrong!
In fact, I just caught myself texting my brother, typing "I'm leaving at 2 if you wanted a lift", which I feel like is me trying to be less direct, rather than referring to his intention in the past.
Also, a final example that might be in support of a) is that I found myself to use it the most when I used to work at a supermarket (but I might have just noticed this more then because I was actively thinking about this when I was working there) and perhaps that was me subconsciously shifting my register to a more polite and less direct way of communicating with customers.
Thoughts? :D
This has been insanely fun for me just to think about for ages and the opportunity to discuss it with anyone other than my brain and me would be welcomed.
  
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"Did" implies past tense towards the thought/action.
In the biscuit example, it'd be utilized as if you've already thought about obtaining the biscuit, or have already obtained it, thus you ask in the past tense. The other option in using "did" is whether they might have considered a biscuit, so you're asking in the past tense as well.
In aspects of asking about activities for the day, using "did" suggests that you believe they've thought about potential activities. Asking in the present doesn't necessarily mean they haven't previously thought about it, but is more common given that it's taking place in the present.
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I think that using past tense in this case may only be correct if you are taking the last biscuit. For example, I might say something like, "Oh sorry, did you want a biscuit?"
If you are simply offering someone a biscuit, then asking in past tense makes no sense. Their desire for biscuits in the past has nothing to do with wanting one at the present moment.
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On October 12 2012 00:34 Marimokkori wrote:
I think that using past tense in this case may only be correct if you are taking the last biscuit. For example, I might say something like, "Oh sorry, did you want a biscuit?"
If you are simply offering someone a biscuit, then asking in past tense makes no sense. Their desire for biscuits in the past has nothing to do with wanting one at the present moment.
I can't come up with anything concrete right now, but I feel like if the original desire is in a close enough time period, it should still be referred to in the past.
To return to biscuit scenarios, say I ask anyone if they want a biscuit out of the blue (i.e. there has been no prompting and we assume that they have not thought about having a biscuit today), I would say something like, "Does anyone want a biscuit?". This is obviously present tense because I have literally just sprung this on them and their minds are only formulating thoughts on the issue from then on.
My friend in the group that I asked says, "No, I'm fine." So I proceed to walk away, grab one, and then return to the group. As I eat the biscuit, I notice that same friend eyeing it off and I ask, "Mate, did you want a biscuit?", to which he replies, "Yes." However, it feels that "do you want a biscuit" is equally correct or maybe more, depending on the circumstances.
Upon further thought, this example is a bit off my original point because it refers to an actual event in the past where he refused the biscuit while lying (he had the intention of eating a biscuit, but was shy or whatever and so he said no).
I may as well just pull an example from real life; at the aforementioned supermarket that I used to work at, I would sometimes say something like "did you want a receipt for that?", rather than "do you want a receipt for that?" as the former feels less direct, but neither feel incorrect. The thing that makes me feel like this could be about intentions is that I would never say, "did you have a discount card?", I would always say, "do you have a discount card?". The key here is that it feels okay to use "did" when asking about the receipt because I'm enquiring about their intention to get a receipt, whereas when I enquire about their possession of something physical (their discount card), I feel like I have to present tense and basically never past tense. The same clear cut distinction just doesn't seem to exist when referring to intentions.
I realise what I've said is largely/wholly subjective, but that's all I can really come up with right now. I may have made some mistakes since it's 2am, but I think it's all g.
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I love this kinda stuff. English is so wonky...
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The past tense in these cases seem to imply that getting a biscuit or a receipt is no longer possible.
Do you want a biscuit? - There are some available.
Did you want a biscuit? - They have already been eaten.
Do you want a receipt? - One is printing for you.
Did you want a receipt? - I already threw it away.
These are the connotations I attach to past/present questions such as these. Pretty much everyone around me has similar connotations. It could be a regional thing, seeing that we are from different countries. Using past tense to offer biscuits and receipts that are readily available makes no sense to me. It feels awkward just thinking about it.
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What's even funnier is this. Try asking people negative questions-->Did you not see that?. Even if they didn't see that, they will respond with ''No''. Altough they should respond with yes. Atleast in Dutch this is very frequently done wrong. Usually it doesn't matter because you can tell by body language what the other meant, but it still is confusing sometimes. I just say,
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On October 12 2012 01:25 Recognizable wrote:
What's even funnier is this. Try asking people negative questions-->Did you not see that?. Even if they didn't see that, they will respond with ''No''. Altough they should respond with yes. Atleast in Dutch this is very frequently done wrong. Usually it doesn't matter because you can tell by body language what the other meant, but it still is confusing sometimes. I just say,
This is more of a regional thing from my experience.
USA --> Didn't you go to the movie? No --> I did not go to the movie.
KOR --> Didn't you go to the movie? Yes --> That's right, I did not go.
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haha OP I try to figure our the reasons for wording things in certain ways. What a fun way to daydream!
I think "did" instead of the present "do" is simply less confident. It sort of distances you from the question. Somehow you're less related in the "did". I don't even understand. Maybe it takes us further from reality and more to the cerebral and imaginative?? For the "did you want a ride" I think that makes sense.. it implies that you would not be surprised if your brother had planned on getting a ride from you.
The answer to "did you not" cannot be "yes I did not" its "no i did not." Its confusing if you don't finish your sentence though.
Ya know what really grinds my gears? Hot is a bloody synonym for spicey food but just as often food is hot in temperature meaning i have to say "temperature" to distinguish! what a flaw!
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Hong Kong9162 Posts
Colloquially, the 'did you want' something construction is almost a shortening of 'did you still want' something.
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English grammar is easy. If it doesn't sound right, then it isn't!
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On October 12 2012 01:42 itsjustatank wrote:
Colloquially, the 'did you want' something construction is almost a shortening of 'did you still want' something.
This is the most correct thing being said.
The whole "absence of a biscuit" thing only applies literally. Obviously the past tense means something that has happened, but the deeper connotation is what I think the OP is getting at. If it is literally the last biscuit, it works. But if its "did you still want a biscuit" it also works.
Those kinds of things make me so happy I'm a native English speaker.
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That's how it is in German, actually.
"Wolltest du (auch) 'nen Keks?" -- "Did you (also) want a biscuit?"
It kinda suggests that the other person may have also formed the thought of grabbing a biscuit at the same time you did, before you actually did (thus in the past). A usual concurrent thing to do with saying it would be to extend the box of biscuits to the other person. However, this form is also used as a sort of taunt when you actually grabbed the last one, hehe.
Of course, the present tense also works, though it seems more direct or forced (while you're in the act of grabbing one):
"Willst du (auch) 'nen Keks?" -- "Do you (also) want a biscuit?"
Fun stuff. 
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Awesome, thanks for all the replies, guys. This has basically reinforced what I have thought and has added a bit more for me to think about.
@Recognizable, I may be off on this, but I seem to remember reading something like in English we answer questions in terms of what our response will be, i.e. I will start off with "No" if my response is using a negative verb and "Yes" if my response is positive. I've noticed this a lot more during my study of Japanese and Korean, where you answer questions with confirmation or negation. So, if you asked someone, "Didn't you see that?", and they did not see it, they would say "Yes" because they are confirming that they did not see it.
I don't have any examples off the top of my head right now, but I do remember going through it in my head a while ago and coming up with examples where, in English, you could respond with "No, I didn't see it" or you could equally validly respond with "Yes" in the confirmation/negation way.
@Proseat, that's really cool that you have basically the same innate feelings and reactions to the equivalent structure in German. The close relation between English and German kind of makes me want to try to attempt some German as it could offer another insight into how English works.
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What? Isn't it "would you like a biscuit?" I find "did" a bit too casual for these particular settings.
"Wolltest du auch einen von diesen lekkeren Keksen?" funktioniert, aber ich dachte dass so wass sagst du nicht wenn du mit Freunden bist. Normaleweise ist es, "Hey, schnapp dir 'ne Kekse" oder so wass... na ja,
Anyway, I would think that such conversation would usually be held in polite company, so the more informal colloquialisms would fall a bit short. *shrugs*
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On October 12 2012 01:28 Marimokkori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 01:25 Recognizable wrote:
What's even funnier is this. Try asking people negative questions-->Did you not see that?. Even if they didn't see that, they will respond with ''No''. Altough they should respond with yes. Atleast in Dutch this is very frequently done wrong. Usually it doesn't matter because you can tell by body language what the other meant, but it still is confusing sometimes. I just say, This is more of a regional thing from my experience. USA --> Didn't you go to the movie? No --> I did not go to the movie. KOR --> Didn't you go to the movie? Yes --> That's right, I did not go.
Yeah there's nothing really wrong with either. That's what I love about English, it's so versatile. Do not like my native language (Mandarin), it's a pain to learn.
Keep up the Aussie English buddy, I love that stuff. Some of my best friends are Australian so it's only getting easier for me to relate. It's because of them that my English hasn't deteriorated over the years unlike most of the Singaporeans I've met.
@Sounds right = probably right grammar, you have no idea how Singlish used to sound right to me :D
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On October 12 2012 15:13 Serpest wrote:
What? Isn't it "would you like a biscuit?" I find "did" a bit too casual for these particular settings.
"Wolltest du auch einen von diesen lekkeren Keksen?" funktioniert, aber ich dachte dass so wass sagst du nicht wenn du mit Freunden bist. Normaleweise ist es, "Hey, schnapp dir 'ne Kekse" oder so wass... na ja,
Anyway, I would think that such conversation would usually be held in polite company, so the more informal colloquialisms would fall a bit short. *shrugs*
This is an assumption on my part, but maybe try replacing "biscuit" with "cookie" and see how it feels since you appear to be from the US. I get the feeling you might be thinking of biscuit in the sort of stereotypical tea-type scenarios (with upper class or formal connotations), when in Australia, we use the word "biscuit" instead of "cookie".
So it's completely normal to have a pack of chocolate chip biscuits from the shop (not chocolate chip cookies) or whatever, we just don't really say cookie unless we've been particularly influenced by American culture or sometimes if the product explicitly has "cookie" in the title (but I personally haven't had that as a common experience).
On a note about the word "biscuit", my brain gets all twisted when I hear Americans using biscuit when talking about some small bread roll, a biscuit it always a sweet and mostly hard baked treat in my mind. When I heard "biscuits and gravy", I flipped out; imagine someone saying they're going to have cookies and gravy, that's just so weird to me, haha. Also, "steak and biscuit", wtf lol.
I understand that that will sound perfectly normal to Americans, but it boggles my mind as an Australian.
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On October 12 2012 01:37 meteorskunk wrote:For the "did you want a ride" I think that makes sense.. it implies that you would not be surprised if your brother had planned on getting a ride from you.
Boom, that's exactly the feeling I had when sending the text.
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On October 12 2012 15:13 Serpest wrote:
What? Isn't it "would you like a biscuit?" I find "did" a bit too casual for these particular settings.
"Wolltest du auch einen von diesen lekkeren Keksen?" funktioniert, aber ich dachte dass so wass sagst du nicht wenn du mit Freunden bist. Normaleweise ist es, "Hey, schnapp dir 'ne Kekse" oder so wass... na ja,
Anyway, I would think that such conversation would usually be held in polite company, so the more informal colloquialisms would fall a bit short. *shrugs*
"Would you like a biscuit?" sounds very formal, but is certainly correct.
For the examples I gave above I had a rather casual setting in mind: You and friends lounging on a coach, watching TV or whatever, and there is a box of biscuits/cookies on the table that the host is making a grab for.
"Wolltest du auch einen von diesen leckeren Keksen?" (Would you also fancy/like one of these delicious biscuits/cookies?) sounds a bit contrived, like something you'd hear on a children's program, hehe.
"Hey, schnapp dir nen Keks!" (Hey, go grab a biscuit/cookie!) is very informal but also very direct. I'd say it's more common in the described setting to go with one of the examples mentioned in my earlier post.
Learning German, are you?
On October 12 2012 10:30 Suc wrote:
@Proseat, that's really cool that you have basically the same innate feelings and reactions to the equivalent structure in German. The close relation between English and German kind of makes me want to try to attempt some German as it could offer another insight into how English works.
Yeah, although I must say that when I once caught myself saying "Did you also want a biscuit?" akin to the German form, I remember looking this up. The present tense form was given as the only correct one. That was many years ago. Perhaps things have evolved?
And yes, there are many similarities between English and German. So if you're seriously interested in learning German, go for it. I'm pretty sure there's also one or two Goethe Institutes in Australia that are funded by Germany to promote our language and culture abroad. They'd be able to help you along.
EDIT:
http://www.goethe.de/sydney
http://www.goethe.de/melbourne
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Hi, I didn't find a topic where to post. Could someone check my grammar and point mistakes? I started writing some book. I have a lot of thoughts but its not easy putting them on paper and English is not my first language.
A piece from my paper:
Small steps were getting closer and closer. Jimbo turned off his anti-gravity belt and slowly glided down. As he turned off welding tool the light was dimming and you could see his dirty face.
Not a pretty sight - half of the head was burned. One eye was green another one blue - a mark of worker, green eye was specially modified and had different vision modes. In Jimbos case it could see weld lines even through strongest light There were marks of scars on his cheeks. Could be the doctor did his job poorly, or wounds were so deep that it was not possible to fix him. Even the smile he had today did not give him much charm. Most of people would turn their heads other way when they saw Jimbo, but not Timmy.
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EPT
