Forenote: You may not agree with what I have to say, but it's the truth. If you don't like it, don't post here.
Alright, so I am one of the few hundred thousand, or few million, non-monolingual Americans residing in America at the moment.
I can speak, read, and write a few thousand words in Mandarin Chinese. However, my spoken Chinese skills are the most deficient.
I didn't get where I am now, with my credentials, by simply sitting around in Chinese bars all day and asking "How do I say ____ in Chinese?"
I sat down, with a book, for at least one hour each day, transcribing characters into simplified script, and more recently, traditional script. Now, I can read most any generic news articles from Taiwan or China as long as the material in them is not overtly specific (economics, psychology, etc.).
I have taken proficiency tests in Chinese as well. The HSK for instance. Think the TOEFL of Chinese for a moment, and I have passed it. Therefore, if I wanted to, I could study at a university in mainland China.
But if it's one thing that I find oh-so-irking, it would have to be the American that is disillusioned into thinking that they speak German / Korean / Japanese / Insert language here just because they spent a year or two wherever while they were in the military. I kind of have a reputation where I come from, people know I speak Chinese because people talk big about me here. At times I find it annoying, really. People think I'm god because I'm a Caucasian that speaks Chinese, but Chinese people that speak English get zero praise, wtf? Moving on, some guy talks to me about it at the university here, and then another guy says he speaks Japanese fluently I guess because of the flawed thought process many Americans possess which influences them to think that Japanese and Chinese are similar (They both come from two completely different language classes, thousands of years ago. Aside from the fact that Japanese uses its own unique character set along with a large portion of Chinese characters. Grammatically, it has much more in common with Korean, or even Turkish.)
And finally, to the dialogue that ensued. "I was in Osaka for three years. Almost got married. I speak Japanese fluently." "Can you read Katakana Hiragana or Kanji?" "BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA DESU!" "No, bro I don't speak Japanese, I was asking you if you could READ it, you know, Katakana, Hiragana?" "I got no clue what you're talkin' about." "Have you taken the JLPT or the DLPT?" "I got no clue what you're talkin' about. I took classes at the education center on base."
--The Next Day--
"I speak Japanese fluently." "How do you say 'nuclear reactor' in Japanese?" "I don't know." "..."
Owned?
How to properly demonstrate language fluency:
A degree in a foreign language doesn't mean shit to me, because I had a classmate in his senior year that couldn't read the Chinese character for "Beer" correctly, and it's such a painfully common word in Chinese.
Take proficiency tests. I cannot say this enough. When the U.S. Government is considering hiring their applicants, the applicants must take the DLPT (Defense Language Proficiency Test) for the language they want to translate for. Said applicants need demonstrable fluency in said foreign language, and usually it is all of these other little non-government proficiency tests which get government certified translators in the door with their first gigs.
/rant. this is just something that annoys the fuck out of me.
Actually I don't know what's a nuclear reactor is in Chinese either hahaha we just use the English term ><
Going to find out in case an angry white guy asks me
Then again I've NEVER came across a foreigner who can get the bloody tones right and they ALWAYS sound like shit, with the sole exception for a some dudes I saw on TV. Not even this "polyglot" on youtube.
In case that sounded like I'm flaming you for that last one. I was just ranting. hahaha. Please do focus hard on the tones. Same/Similar things for Japanese I'd assume.
Then again I've NEVER came across a foreigner who can get the bloody tones right and they ALWAYS sound like shit, with the sole for a some dudes I saw on TV. Not even this "polyglot" on youtube.
In case that sounded like I'm flaming you for that last one. I was just ranting. hahaha. Please do focus hard on the tones. Same/Similar things for Japanese I'd assume.
Sometimes I try to cast in chinese. For me it's pretty shitty:
Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
I went through that crazy dictionary phase for French and Spanish. It's much better now though it has not by any means ended yet. The only way is to keep going at it. Chinese uses a lot more figurative stuff and people have been writing like that since I was is primary school and I was always in awe of them. You can ask me anything a dictionary can't explain. Or you could try the WordReference forums.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
I went through that crazy dictionary phase for French and Spanish. It's much better now though it has not by any means ended yet. The only way is to keep going at it. Chinese uses a lot more figurative stuff and people have been writing like that since I was is primary school and I was always in awe of them. You can ask me anything a dictionary can't explain. Or you could try the WordReference forums.
Oh I know xD. What I mean is that, when we started learning our first language for instance, we didn't start with ROTK. So I'm looking for a good progression of books, so I can practice increasing my reading speed without getting used to stopping so often for dictionary.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
My inspiration came from the idea of meeting my girlfriend's parents one day.
I did, and then I realized they were terrible people. LOL.
Um, if you want certifications, I would recommend you buy "New Practical Chinese Reader" Volumes 1-6 (Volumes five and six have instructions only in Chinese, and I believe Volume 6 is only available in China, where I bought volumes 4, 5, and 6 because it would be a lot cheaper than getting it from Amazon). If you finish book three, then you basically know enough to pass HSK level 3, which is the lowest acceptable level to study in Chinese universities. The test was painfully easy when I took it almost two years ago. I felt like I was walking in to traps.
However, if you want something more practical, I would recommend you buy Integrated Chinese Volumes 1-3. And remember, you have to study for at least an hour a day, 4+ days a week. I've actually had interaction with native speakers for less than 10% of my entire studies. Sure, I study, and all of my friends are Chinese.
But of course, I still have pronunciation problems. I feel like I need classes for that.
For me, studying Chinese wasn't really about learning Chinese, it was more about filling a void in my life. I had nothing else to do with my spare time, and for the most part, I had no internet so I spent my spare time doing my second-most enjoyed pass-time: studying foreign languages. Now I have something to be proud of on my resume.
I didn't like American sports growing up, the last time I took part in any sport was elementary baseball, I grew up as a gamer. So, in some ways, you can say I connect more with Chinese people my age than I do with American people my age.
As for higher-level literature, I think you could find authors like 魯迅，巴金， and 龍應台 as well as their works online with google. These are basically Hemingway-esque authors for China, and the former of the two authors, I feel, are propaganda icons for the modern day PRC.
On August 04 2012 23:40 JieXian wrote: People would brag about their basketball skills or their BW skills or their guitar skills or their knowledge in something and turn out to be complete trash People are just being people.
Actually I don't know what's a nuclear reactor is in Chinese either hahaha we just use the English term >< Going to find out in case an angry white guy asks me
Then again I've NEVER came across a foreigner who can get the bloody tones right and they ALWAYS sound like shit, with the sole exception for a some dudes I saw on TV. Not even this "polyglot" on youtube.
In case that sounded like I'm flaming you for that last one. I was just ranting. hahaha. Please do focus hard on the tones. Same/Similar things for Japanese I'd assume.
You know, I agree with what you say. I am trying to learn both Korean and Chinese due to my study interests and while I am able to say a few words in Chinese due to my time there, I am by no means any good. Although the mainland Chinese people I know keep praising me for my pronounciation, I can not hear the subtle difference between different tones. I'd pronounce "four" as "death" and not realise it.
Problem here lies in the absense of the tonal language in the West. Then again, the problem I encountered with Mandarin was the local dialect. I stayed in Xiamen, which is a Hokkien-minority region aswell as having similar pronounciation as Taiwanese people. This means that anyone from outside the city finds it hard to understand the Mandarin I try to speak, as the way of expressing is different.
What bothers me more, is that Chinese people in general do not have the capacity to get the context of a sentence well, even if a word is mispronounced. If you say the wrong word in the West, 99% of the time people will still know what you say. But from my experience, if you fuck up the pronounciation of the word in China, they just don't see the whole part of the sentence.
On August 05 2012 00:21 Aelonius wrote: You know, I agree with what you say. I am trying to learn both Korean and Chinese due to my study interests and while I am able to say a few words in Chinese due to my time there, I am by no means any good. Although the mainland Chinese people I know keep praising me for my pronounciation, I can not hear the subtle difference between different tones. I'd pronounce "four" as "death" and not realise it.
Problem here lies in the absense of the tonal language in the West. Then again, the problem I encountered with Mandarin was the local dialect. I stayed in Xiamen, which is a Hokkien-minority region aswell as having similar pronounciation as Taiwanese people. This means that anyone from outside the city finds it hard to understand the Mandarin I try to speak, as the way of expressing is different.
What bothers me more, is that Chinese people in general do not have the capacity to get the context of a sentence well, even if a word is mispronounced. If you say the wrong word in the West, 99% of the time people will still know what you say. But from my experience, if you fuck up the pronounciation of the word in China, they just don't see the whole part of the sentence.
In the beginning, I interacted with people who mostly came from Fuzhou, so the accent I have is pretty similar. When I was in Taiwan, I tried speaking with a Taiwanese accent, but people still said I emphasized the mainland accent @_@.
"Four" and "Death" have the same exact pronunciation. Just think AK-死7, and you got the idea ^_^.
On August 05 2012 00:38 zalz wrote: You sound like a very pleasant person to be around.
Sarcasm?
Back to the topic, I was just outside smoking a cigarette and I heard a neighbor speaking on her cell phone while walking back to her apartment. Chinese.
So then I asked her, "What city do you come from?" in Chinese two or three times before she understood. Like I said, my spoken Chinese is the worst of my three categories.
On August 05 2012 00:38 zalz wrote: You sound like a very pleasant person to be around.
Sarcasm?
Back to the topic, I was just outside smoking a cigarette and I heard a neighbor speaking on her cell phone while walking back to her apartment. Chinese.
So then I asked her, "What city do you come from?" in Chinese two or three times before she understood. Like I said, my spoken Chinese is the worst of my three categories.
I beat myself up when it comes to this stuff.
So what's your point? Isn't it "enough" for most people to be able to communicate abroad with foreign people? I think that's the most important thing. If they are able to get along in everyday life, they can claim to speak a language. It's not a yes/no ability. This sounds more like an attempt to be noticed as good speaker by anyone you encouter rather than a rant about people. Besides, not everyone shares the same passion that you might or might not have, that doesn't make them dumb or less sophisticated. Some even don't have the opportunity to spend hours on this - just by the way.
On August 05 2012 00:38 zalz wrote: You sound like a very pleasant person to be around.
Sarcasm?
Back to the topic, I was just outside smoking a cigarette and I heard a neighbor speaking on her cell phone while walking back to her apartment. Chinese.
So then I asked her, "What city do you come from?" in Chinese two or three times before she understood. Like I said, my spoken Chinese is the worst of my three categories.
I beat myself up when it comes to this stuff.
So what's your point? Isn't it "enough" for most people to be able to communicate abroad with foreign people? I think that's the most important thing. If they are able to get along in everyday life, they can claim to speak a language. It's not a yes/no ability. This sounds more like an attempt to be noticed as good speaker by anyone you encouter rather than a rant about people. Besides, not everyone shares the same passion that you might or might not have, that doesn't make them dumb or less sophisticated. Some even don't have the opportunity to spend hours on this - just by the way.
He's saying that he's unsatisfied with his proficiency of Chinese.
An important ingredient for a good student. Or any achiever for that matter - think guitarists, athletes etc.
If you read his OP those people obviously can't get along daily life.
On August 05 2012 00:28 Enders116 wrote: "Four" and "Death" have the same exact pronunciation. Just think AK-死7, and you got the idea ^_^.
HELL NO
this was what I was talking about with the tone problem.
just in case you weren't joking - even if you were you were downplaying the importance of tones.... it's as important as any syllable in English.
EDit: I listened to 10 secs and stopped. I don't want to sound harsh but I have to ask, do you notice that you made the mistakes at the first "hello everyone" phrase itself?
And ask your Chinese friends to correct you and keep reminding them to do it. They might consider it rude so you need to assure them about what's important.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
I went through that crazy dictionary phase for French and Spanish. It's much better now though it has not by any means ended yet. The only way is to keep going at it. Chinese uses a lot more figurative stuff and people have been writing like that since I was is primary school and I was always in awe of them. You can ask me anything a dictionary can't explain. Or you could try the WordReference forums.
Oh I know xD. What I mean is that, when we started learning our first language for instance, we didn't start with ROTK. So I'm looking for a good progression of books, so I can practice increasing my reading speed without getting used to stopping so often for dictionary.
Just in case, you're using an online dictionary right :D ?
IMO increasing reading speed should be the LEAST of your worries. Get your vocab and grammar up and most of all focus on the tones. Sorry for repeating that again and again but that's what I have to say to everyone.
No idea what's ROTK. I highly recommend Pimsleur Mandarin.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
My inspiration came from the idea of meeting my girlfriend's parents one day.
I did, and then I realized they were terrible people. LOL.
Um, if you want certifications, I would recommend you buy "New Practical Chinese Reader" Volumes 1-6 (Volumes five and six have instructions only in Chinese, and I believe Volume 6 is only available in China, where I bought volumes 4, 5, and 6 because it would be a lot cheaper than getting it from Amazon). If you finish book three, then you basically know enough to pass HSK level 3, which is the lowest acceptable level to study in Chinese universities. The test was painfully easy when I took it almost two years ago. I felt like I was walking in to traps.
However, if you want something more practical, I would recommend you buy Integrated Chinese Volumes 1-3. And remember, you have to study for at least an hour a day, 4+ days a week. I've actually had interaction with native speakers for less than 10% of my entire studies. Sure, I study, and all of my friends are Chinese.
But of course, I still have pronunciation problems. I feel like I need classes for that.
For me, studying Chinese wasn't really about learning Chinese, it was more about filling a void in my life. I had nothing else to do with my spare time, and for the most part, I had no internet so I spent my spare time doing my second-most enjoyed pass-time: studying foreign languages. Now I have something to be proud of on my resume.
I didn't like American sports growing up, the last time I took part in any sport was elementary baseball, I grew up as a gamer. So, in some ways, you can say I connect more with Chinese people my age than I do with American people my age.
As for higher-level literature, I think you could find authors like 魯迅，巴金， and 龍應台 as well as their works online with google. These are basically Hemingway-esque authors for China, and the former of the two authors, I feel, are propaganda icons for the modern day PRC.
Oh yea I'm ready for the time dedication. I've been averaging about 2 hours a day, slowly ramping it up, now at 3 hours/day for the last week (each day).
On August 05 2012 00:54 Gecko[Xp] wrote: So what's your point? Isn't it "enough" for most people to be able to communicate abroad with foreign people? I think that's the most important thing. If they are able to get along in everyday life, they can claim to speak a language. It's not a yes/no ability. This sounds more like an attempt to be noticed as good speaker by anyone you encouter rather than a rant about people. Besides, not everyone shares the same passion that you might or might not have, that doesn't make them dumb or less sophisticated. Some even don't have the opportunity to spend hours on this - just by the way.
My issue is people that toss the word "fluent" around and mince words when they say "I am fluent in ____." Like the place where I met that guy who said he could speak Japanese fluently. There are no Japanese people in my hometown. Like only a handful. For a white-trash suburb with a population of 50,000. The only university there was a 2 year college with a student body of like 2,000 bible-bangers, and almost no Asians in site.
According to my proficiency, I am "fluent" in Chinese, but if you look at the OP I posted, you'll see that no where did I use this word to describe myself. That's because I can't understand televised news reports, televised documentaries, or anything televised that has extremely high level vocabulary. And this makes perfect sense, because you have all the time in the world to read a newspaper and make sense of what it says while news reporters on TV talk quickly and flash to many different scenes on TV.
As JieXian said, my chinese is terrible. I've met people who I thought were native speakers of English on instant messaging clients and whenever we met face to face, they would insist that I speak Chinese to them because they don't want to speak English to me because they're afraid they'll make grammar errors. Likewise, I've had the same thing happen to me, people thought I was a native speaker of Chinese online, but then they see my white face and they're like, "OMG This white guy speaks Chinese."
And Jiexian, when I said AK-死7, it was a joke. I saw that was a person's screenname on CS 1.6 when I was at a wang ba in China.
JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
On August 05 2012 01:27 Enders116 wrote: As JieXian said, my chinese is terrible. I've met people who I thought were native speakers of English on instant messaging clients and whenever we met face to face, they would insist that I speak Chinese to them because they don't want to speak English to me because they're afraid they'll make grammar errors. Likewise, I've had the same thing happen to me, people thought I was a native speaker of Chinese online, but then they see my white face and they're like, "OMG This white guy speaks Chinese."
And Jiexian, when I said AK-死7, it was a joke. I saw that was a person's screenname on CS 1.6 when I was at a wang ba in China.
Anywho, I gotta go for now.
it's far from terrible. Your vocab and grammar seemed good. Just keep working on the tones and asking for help and for corrections.
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
EPT
