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Balancing Late-game SC2: Limiting Gas

Blogs > cablesc
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cablesc
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1540 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 13:57:28
June 03 2012 11:41 GMT
#1
+ Show Spoiler [Too Long Not Gonna Read] +
Creating maps where there is only 1 gas geyser at the 3rd/4th base locations would slow down the formation of the "Deathball" composition, which could address late-game racial imbalances without affecting early/mid-game balance.
+ Show Spoiler [Other resource tweaks to consider] +

Instead 1 Gas for each 3rd/4th/5th base you can also consider:

1 High Yield Gas, 8 Mineral Patches = 75% gas, 100% minerals of a normal base.

1 High Yield Gas, 6 Mineral Patches = 75% gas, 75% minerals of a normal base.

1 Normal Gas, 8 Mineral Patches = 50% gas, 100% minerals of a normal base.

1 Normal Gas, 6 Mineral Patches = 50% gas, 75% minerals of a normal base.

Etc.




Late-game balance is a very sensitive subject in SC2 these days (as is any kind of balance discussions). Maybe this is an idea that has already been gone over in a myriad other threads. And I'm sure a lot of people are annoyed by people starting threads with balance suggestions, but I figured it wouldn't be that big a deal to post a blog on the subject.

The SC2 map-making community has done a tremendous job of tweaking the competitive balance of the game simply by adjusting the map pool. Starting with building larger maps (back in the Steppes of War days), to removing gold bases, IMO the map-making community has had just as dramatic an effect on competitive balance in SC2 as the changes made by Blizzard.

So with all the discussion about the balance of late-game TvP (and to a lesser extent late-game TvZ) I wonder if there is a map-making change that could be done to address the issue. My idea is:

What if we had maps where the main/natural had two gases like we have now but the potential 3rd and 4th expansions only had 1 gas geyser? The standard number of 8 mineral patches would remain the same for all bases.

+ Show Spoiler [Other resource tweaks to consider] +

Instead 1 Gas for each 3rd/4th/5th base you can also consider:

1 High Yield Gas, 8 Mineral Patches = 75% gas, 100% minerals of a normal base.

1 High Yield Gas, 6 Mineral Patches = 75% gas, 75% minerals of a normal base.

1 Normal Gas, 8 Mineral Patches = 50% gas, 100% minerals of a normal base.

1 Normal Gas, 6 Mineral Patches = 50% gas, 75% minerals of a normal base.

Etc.


This type of resource tweaking is similar to the "Fewer Resourced per Base" (FRB) movement, but it's not nearly as dramatic a change. The early/mid-game and one/two base play would be largely unchanged because the main and natural would the same amount of resources as we have now. Only Zerg can get to 3 bases early, and even then they wouldn't need to take 6 gases that early. But the reduction in gas in the late-game would slow down the formation of the "Deathball" and allow less gas intensive Terran armies to go toe-to-toe against Protoss and Zerg.

On 4 player maps, players could expand to the other starting positions instead of the standard 3rd and 4th bases to give themselves the extra gas, but it would be harder to defend so that trade-off exists. On 2 player maps, I'm thinking every expansion outside of the main and natural would only have 1 gas, expect maybe a faraway expansion that would replicate the dynamic from 4 player maps with the other starting positions.

Other changes can be made as required. Maybe this level of gas availability requires 3rd and 4th bases be easier to defend. Those kinds of changes can be made based on feedback for this style of map-making.

My thoughts on how it would affect each matchup:

TvP: This is the main impetus for this change. Right now late-game PvT just seems to have one formula: if Toss turtles up on 3 bases without Terran doing a lot of damage early, Toss will build up a deathball that's extremely cost efficient and crushes though the Terran army with the help of insta-reinforcing Zealots and Archons.

With this change a 3 base Toss goes from 6 gases to 5 which limits how fast they can build up their key splash units (Collossi and HT's). Terran on the other hand doesn't need nearly as much gas to build up their MMMVG composition, so the reduction in gas wouldn't affect them as much.

The less gas intensive Terran armies could fight toe to toe against Protoss and make the late-game much more balanced and back and forth.

TvZ: While not as controversial as the current TvP debate, TvZ also has heated discussions about late-game balance. Ever since the snipe nerf, a lot of Terrans from different levels have complained about late-game TvZ. The recent buff to Queens and overlord speed has only increased the chatter that Terrans need some help.

There are gas-intensive units on both sides of the matchup, so my thought is that there would be pros and cons for each. Zerg would have less of their key late-game units (Infestors, Broodlords and Ultras), but at the same time Terrans would find it harder to deal with tech switches due to less gas for Mauraders/Vikings. The Zerg does have the Queen to be a mineral sink which would augment the power of their army with transfuses.

Terran would have less Tanks and Mech play would be really hurt. But Marine-based compositions would be a lot stronger since Marines make the perfect mineral-sink and the Zerg would have less Infestors and Banelings. In this less gas scenario, due to the power of the mineral-only Marine, Terran probably ends up with more pros than cons, and maybe that is enough to give Terrans a boost in the late-game.

PvZ: Both Protoss and Zerg require a lot of gas in the late-game. Zergs need Boodlord, Infestor, and Corrupters. Protoss needs Stalkers, Collossi, HT/Archons and Mothership. My thinking is that both sides would be hurt as much as each other so a lower gas map would not dramatically affect the balance of this matchup.



For the mirror matchups there would not be any issues about balance, but less gas would create changes in style, so I thought it would be worth addressing.

PvP: No changes. PvP almost never goes to 3 bases anyway. And even if it did, this would just mean smaller collossi vs collossi fights.

ZvZ: ZvZ's don't always go to 3 bases so those games wouldn't change. In 3 or more base scenarios, less gas means less infestors and maybe more spines (mineral sink), which could lead to longer macro games. Hard to say. But I don't think that less gas would hurt ZvZ stylistically.

TvT: This is the mirror with the biggest change. Mech TvT would definitely take a hit in a lower gas scenario. Mech TvT isn't the standard composition (we see Marine Tank the majority of the time) but there are definitely top Terrans who still have success with Mech (Alive and MKP come to mind). Losing Mech in TvT and TvZ would be a distinct possibility and I'm sure some people would be saddened by the loss (see Artosis), but that's the trade-off for the other benefits of the lower gas change. Also maybe this is where the next step of map-making would step in. Maybe making the 3rd or 4th easier to defend would compensate for having less gas.

I readily admit that this "1 gas at the 3rd/4th" idea is just theorycrafting. And maybe there are some huge holes in my logic that I haven't thought of. But I think it's worth discussing. Instead of just balance whining on the boards and flaming Blizzard, maybe we should be looking to our map-making community to see if some map changes can address game imbalance. This is just an idea to spur discussion.


***
Slayers Forever! Rip. :( - Not the eSports organizer, that's CableStarcraft.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
June 03 2012 12:08 GMT
#2
I think its a idea which is worth looking in it. But only one gas at the 3rd would be very bad for zerg even in the midgame. I would prefer one gas at the 4th.
TL+ Member
iTzSnypah
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1738 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 12:19:07
June 03 2012 12:17 GMT
#3
I'm not sure I like this. I play terran and it seems lategame I have TONS of gas (except when playing mech). What I'm thinking would happen is TvP and TvZ would skew into Terrans favor as infestor/bl, zealot/archon is standard compositions against Terran and require a lot of gas. And then Marines would get nerfed as Blizzard likes to listen to non-terrans.

Maybe 1 high yield gas at 3/4/5/6 would work however, as the gas income difference wouldn't be too great however less workers would be needed to saturate bases making lategame armies larger.
Team Liquid needs more Terrans.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 12:26:14
June 03 2012 12:20 GMT
#4
This just brings back memories of "(Wiki)Nostalgia" in Brood War... Too many terran marines, not enough gas: D

Basically, I think that terran would benefit too much.. They already have mules which give higher mineral income, faster. Personally, I don't think late game TvZ is that bad. It just depends on production facilities and macro skills, because like iI said, zerg needs gas to kill the mineral heavy unit comp of terran.

TvP it would help a lot.. but I think it's just poor race design on protoss. I hate ZvP just as much as TvP because toss is just too cost effective. And you can almost never avoid their army, because its a hug e200/200 deathball that if you try to army trade against, most times you just will never kill the army anyway.

from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
June 03 2012 12:59 GMT
#5
Maps with mineral only expansions wouldnt hurt
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
June 03 2012 13:08 GMT
#6
I think this idea is already in full swing with the 6m1hyg maps that people have created.

The grand-daddy thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
June 03 2012 13:17 GMT
#7
Late-game TvZ slightly favors Z, but when it gets farther into the late game and more and more bases are taken, it swings wildly back into T's favor. Being able to have massive armies with only a handful of SCVs thanks to mules makes it extremely difficult for Z to deal with unless they're already at a significant advantage. I think Z would get hurt in the long run by this more than the T would.

I also imagine that P would be hit pretty hard by this since they require so much more gas than Z does. Zealots aren't really a viable mineral sink, but lings are still important throughout the game.
Hello
cablesc
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1540 Posts
June 03 2012 13:30 GMT
#8
There are ways to tweak the resource formula for 3rd/4th/5th bases:

1 High Yield Gas, 8 Mineral Patches = 75% gas, 100% minerals of a normal base.

1 High Yield Gas, 6 Mineral Patches = 75% gas, 75% minerals of a normal base.

1 Normal Gas, 8 Mineral Patches = 50% gas, 100% minerals of a normal base.

1 Normal Gas, 6 Mineral Patches = 50% gas, 75% minerals of a normal base.

I think one of these could be the sweet spot to make the game closer to balanced in the late-game.
Slayers Forever! Rip. :( - Not the eSports organizer, that's CableStarcraft.
achristes
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Norway653 Posts
June 03 2012 14:43 GMT
#9
Ok, from a Z standpoint this is messed up. ZvP wouldn't be that affected because both P and Z requires a lot of gas, but would potentially screw protosses even more because they need splash/upgrades to deal with masses of roaches/lings. If this happened maybe no one would even need to get blords anymore because toss can't afford enough splash units to kill your army.

In ZvZ I wouldn't care at all since I all-in just about every ZvZ.

ZvT would be terran favoured beyond belief. By removing gas from zerg you are indirectly buffing marines (which is a unit that can win you the game even after the 1 hour mark) by taking away zergs ability to make infestors, banelings and ultralisks (don't start, ultras are pretty good if you get good fungals). I don't really know how to explain my thoughts, so I'll just say that marines would be so fucking good lategame.


I personally think it's a stupid idea, because of how much benefit terrans get from it (and they aren't exactly being pushed over in tournys either). It could work, but if this is done wrong good terrans will be unbeatable.
youtube.com/spooderm4n | twitch.tv/spooderm4n | Random videos and games I feel like uploading
sharky246
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1197 Posts
June 03 2012 15:00 GMT
#10
On June 03 2012 21:20 Th1rdEye wrote:
This just brings back memories of "(Wiki)Nostalgia" in Brood War... Too many terran marines, not enough gas: D

Basically, I think that terran would benefit too much.. They already have mules which give higher mineral income, faster. Personally, I don't think late game TvZ is that bad. It just depends on production facilities and macro skills, because like iI said, zerg needs gas to kill the mineral heavy unit comp of terran.

TvP it would help a lot.. but I think it's just poor race design on protoss. I hate ZvP just as much as TvP because toss is just too cost effective. And you can almost never avoid their army, because its a hug e200/200 deathball that if you try to army trade against, most times you just will never kill the army anyway.


And this design flaw is why i hate sc2 sooooo much. And it is especially true for tvp.
On January 03 2011 13:14 IdrA wrote: being high on the ladder doesnt get you any closer to your goal. Avoiding practice to protect your rating is absurd. If you want to be good go play 40 games a day and stop thinking about becoming a pro.
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
June 03 2012 15:36 GMT
#11
Not a fan of this particularly. Terran has viable mineral intensive builds in every matchup, where alternatively protoss and zerg are exceptionally reliant on their gas to keep up. Though protoss units are the most gas intensive in cost, zerg would be at a complete loss in ZvT with less gas.

6 gases are barely enough to keep up with a 2 basing terran once medivac production hits. Even if the 5th gas gave slightly more gas, the lack of the 3 workers mining the 6th gas would make muta/infestor play really really difficult to pull off.
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
hummingbird23
Profile Joined September 2011
Norway359 Posts
June 03 2012 15:58 GMT
#12
This is a heavy nerf to Zerg and Protoss. All the counters to the heavy firepower that Terran has require heavy gas investments. Not being satisfied with the fact that zerg require infestors and blings to counter mineral-only marines and Protoss require T3 templar and colossi to deal with the insane firepower of stimmed bioballs, you propose a sweeping change to let Terran keep their current playstyles and make them even more effective? How are protoss supposed to hold 2 base stim medivac timings without heavy forcefield usage and/or T3?
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 18:13:50
June 03 2012 18:13 GMT
#13
Misspost.
Moderator
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
June 03 2012 19:08 GMT
#14
This would break the game and turn into 2 base allin every game.

What Terrans must do is keep spamming tier one units while expanding faster instead of taking their 5th and 6th gasses, with the goal of replacing scvs with Orbitals in the late game.
I am Terranfying.
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
June 03 2012 19:27 GMT
#15
I think this would buttfuck protoss honestly.

As a terran I can basically get away with four gas total all the way to the 25 minute mark if I want, just because I don't need it for anything but ghosts and medivacs, and I don't ideally have to replace either. Stalkers need to be, colossi need to be, templar i guess are comparable to ghosts in need for replacement, immortals, sentries...it just sounds so shit for protoss.

Also, frankly I dont think the actual lategame is understood or really developed enough for anyone to be worrying about needing to find ways to "balance" it better. Most super-lategame ends up turning into a low econ-midgame again, and SOMETIMES has a little bit of experimentation now in the late-before-super-late game where people are starting to develop newer interesting super armies. Too early to worry about imo.
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
June 03 2012 21:17 GMT
#16
This is a great idea and would only affect the highest level of play which I think is great
Jaedong :3
achristes
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Norway653 Posts
June 03 2012 21:58 GMT
#17
On June 04 2012 06:17 ReketSomething wrote:
This is a great idea and would only affect the highest level of play which I think is great

?
How can this NOT affect us lowly little non-GM peasants?
youtube.com/spooderm4n | twitch.tv/spooderm4n | Random videos and games I feel like uploading
cablesc
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1540 Posts
June 03 2012 23:19 GMT
#18
Like I said, there are different ways that you could adjust the resources and map features to refine the balance. Such as making the third have less gas but make it easier to defend (like Terminus) so that it's the 4th base that's the key base to deny.

Or maybe having 1 high yield gas at each 3rd+ base so it's actually a bit more gas efficient for zerg in the mid-game (similar to how the high yield gas was taken earlier on Crevasse).

My main point is that Blizzard seems reluctant to change some of the late-game imbalances in SC2, so maybe we can look to changes in the map pool to address the situation.
Slayers Forever! Rip. :( - Not the eSports organizer, that's CableStarcraft.
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