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In a short conversation today with an unnamed individual X who has lived in the US for nearly two decades now, with a greencard, and is planning on applying for citizenship in the very near term, I mentioned that I am thinking about trying to get a job in military intelligence (probably in AF/Navy). The person in question is a Chinese citizen atm, as am I (I also plan on applying for US citizenship in the very short term). Person X brought up the question of "what then if the US and China had a war?" My answer was quick and obvious - "Then I'll find a way to fuck them [China] over." The response to this statement was one of feeling highly insulted, i.e. insinuating it would be traitorous to do so, etc.
Now keep in mind this is from the scenario where the both of us are US citizens. This person considers that it would be traitorous to act against China in the interests of the US, that the proper course of action would be to support China.
I am seriously thinking about trying to make sure this person does not succeed in getting US citizenship. Only if I am interviewed because said person someday is trying to get a security clearance. I know that this person is extremely two-faced, and will likely lie to the best of person X's ability if ever asked about such issues. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but the principle of citizenship is one that I do not take lightly, and I do not believe such a person should be allowed to be a naturalized citizen of the US.
Poll: Am I mostly....Right on this principle (20) 44% Taking it way too seriously (18) 40% Wrong on this principle (7) 16% 45 total votes Your vote: Am I mostly.... (Vote): Right on this principle
(Vote): Wrong on this principle
(Vote): Taking it way too seriously
Clarification:
On January 19 2012 09:11 EtherealDeath wrote:
To clarify, what I found to be strange is that person X considered the fact that I would almost certainly be supporting the US (I mean hell if I'm even in military intel....) to be unacceptable not in the sense that it seems like blind devotion, but in that I am not helping China.
In other words, the problem as person X sees it is not that I would be helping the US, the problem is that I wouldn't automatically be helping China rather than the US.
So, while I can understand the whole not black and white argument, and certainly you don't have to support your nation if you feel the nation's actions are wrong, my problem with person X is that they would automatically be supporting another nation which hypothetically is at war with the US - their natural reaction, prior to knowing the circumstances, is to support the opposition wtf?
 
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Person X clearly doesn't understand or value "citizenship."
That said, trying to screw this guy over is petty and probably won't work anyway.
And... I don't think most Americans understand or value citizenship anyway. The social contract binding person is absolutely necessary in order for us to maintain the thin veneer that is "civilization."
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I agree that this guys principles are questionable at best.
Don't do anything silly though, trying to sabotage someones citizenship because you have a ethical disagreement doesn't sound like a good idea.
O yeah, and good luck getting your citizenship, I hope it goes smoothly for you 
OK after thinking a little more it is really preposterous to be a citizen of one country and then say it would be "Treasonous" to fail to support another.
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United States5162 Posts
I don't think you should be trying to become a citizen of a country that you openly admit you would commit treason against given the circumstance, but I probably wouldn't do this myself unless I knew that person was going to be in the military or some other position of power.
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On January 19 2012 07:38 Myles wrote:
I don't think you should be trying to become a citizen of a country that you openly admit you would commit treason against given the circumstance, but I probably wouldn't do this myself unless I knew that person was going to be in the military or some other position of power.
Well I'm fairly certain neither of those two scenarios will come to pass, so I guess no point getting worked up over it.
On January 19 2012 07:37 PassiveAce wrote:I agree that this guys principles are questionable at best. Don't do anything silly though, trying to sabotage someones citizenship because you have a ethical disagreement doesn't sound like a good idea. O yeah, and good luck getting your citizenship, I hope it goes smoothly for you OK after thinking a little more it is really preposterous to be a citizen of one country and then say it would be "Treasonous" to fail to support another.
Wait what, I'm kind of confused by your wording there. It sounds like you are saying that it would be natural to support in a war to support the current enemy of the country you are a citizen of?
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excuse me for the poor wording.
What I am trying to say is that it would be ridiculous for Mr. X to say it would be "treasonous" to support the US in a time of war with China, If he were a citizen of the United States.
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Yea that's what I thought you meant, makes more sense.
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On January 19 2012 07:32 krndandaman wrote:
I think both of you are extremes.
I'm surprised you guys even came up with an answer that quick.
I was born and raised in the states but the rest of my extended family lives in South Korea and I have very close ties there with friends/family.
My friend asked a similar question and in all honesty, I do not know which side I would choose if I had to.
this is the right answer
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People don't apply for citizenship because of patriotism but for jobs.
Also, why would it be logical to support a country in war time simply because you are the citizen of that country? Couldn't you factor that, perhaps, what the leaders of your country is trying to do is wrong and that a lot of context is missing by simply asking a "Country X vs. Country Y" question?
I'm glad I was never a German or Japanese citizen in WWII where my neighbors would be all patriotic and telling me "Let's support our country in this war time!"
Otherwise, I'd feel kind of awkward...
EDIT: I'm not saying it wouldn't be treason. I'm just saying a piece of paper shouldn't choose your opinions for you.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 19 2012 08:15 The_Pacifist wrote:
People don't apply for citizenship because of patriotism but for jobs.
Also, why would it be logical to support a country in war time simply because you are the citizen of that country? Couldn't you factor that, perhaps, what the leaders of your country is trying to do is wrong and that a lot of context is missing by simply asking a "Country X vs. Country Y" question?
I'm glad I was never a German or Japanese citizen in WWII where my neighbors would be all patriotic and telling me "Let's support our country in this war time!"
Otherwise, I'd feel kind of awkward...
EDIT: I'm not saying it wouldn't be treason. I'm just saying a piece of paper shouldn't choose your opinions for you.
No, you're glad you weren't German or Japanese in WWII because you probably would have been sent to an internment camp.
As far as the rest of your point, I disagree, but there's not much we can say to change each others mind in this one me thinks.
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Well this is sort of the two sides of the same coin. The question I would ask is, why do you have to feel this sort of extreme loyalty to a nation. I am biased because I have moved around a lot and I don't believe in any after life or anything, so the idea of willingly risking your single life no re. just for the nations sake is weird to me(it's lines drawn in dirt and there's lots of places with great people and great cultures to appreciate).
Now I can understand fighting if something is at stake, but your question is merely a " war happens, which side do you choose?". Why they are fighting doesn't matter? just pick a country? This is how particularly pointless/bad wars get started in the first place. Because I think both of you just assumed in this hypothetical war the other side is in the wrong.
I can also understand how this gets ingrained into people though. I'm sure if I spent my whole life in one country it's possible I'd feel that sort of dedication to side with it no matter what.
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Its totally fine to have differing opinions on this subject. However IMO it is really really childish/wrong to go ahead and attempt to sabotage someone, or mess things up for them. In the end, just worry about your own life and your own beliefs, and let that person do whatever he wants. If the time ever comes when you are both forced to make a decision, he will make his, and you will make yours. What happens to him after that is his problem.
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On January 19 2012 07:32 krndandaman wrote:
I think both of you are extremes.
I'm surprised you guys even came up with an answer that quick.
I was born and raised in the states but the rest of my extended family lives in South Korea and I have very close ties there with friends/family.
My friend asked a similar question and in all honesty, I do not know which side I would choose if I had to.
I'm very sorry I auto-voted "right on the principle" before reading this post. I despise nationalism so OP seemed to be in the right, but now looking at it now the issue definitely isn't that black and white.
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I think it's silly to care so much about it.
Wars aren't things that are created by every day citizens, they are created by elites for elite interests. They don't benefit ordinary citizens. Nationalism in this sense is partly just a form of manipulation to get ordinary citizens to act in a way that benefits elites. While this is simplifying things to an extent, it is more or less accurate in the context of this example.
Why should one have to pick a 'side' and swear 'loyalty' to a specific cadre of elites? It's a false choice. Why not just be opposed to war, period, regardless of instigator or setting?
To be clear, sabotaging your acquaintance's attempt to become a citizen is petty, and, when replicated across society, leads to a paranoid, dangerous, 1984-esque big brother type world. It's essentially declaring that you serve your specific cadre of elites to the point where you will betray another human being to serve their interests, without batting an eyelid.
Not cool
I'm not sure if you were raised in China and went through the Chinese education system or not, but one of China's most famous authors, Lu Xun, makes a similar argument in a madman's diary (狂人日记). Although the CCP canonized his writings as a means of authenticating their own rule in the first half of the 20th century, the type of society he talks about applies equally to today.
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To clarify, what I found to be strange is that person X considered the fact that I would almost certainly be supporting the US (I mean hell if I'm even in military intel....) to be unacceptable not in the sense that it seems like blind devotion, but in that I am not helping China.
In other words, the problem as person X sees it is not that I would be helping the US, the problem is that I wouldn't automatically be helping China rather than the US.
So, while I can understand the whole not black and white argument, and certainly you don't have to support your nation if you feel the nation's actions are wrong, my problem with person X is that they would automatically be supporting another nation which hypothetically is at war with the US - their natural reaction, prior to knowing the circumstances, is to support the opposition wtf?
I also wouldn't call this person an acquaintance in any way. I like to keep interaction to a minimum due to bad history, but that's not relevant to this blog.
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On January 19 2012 09:11 EtherealDeath wrote:
To clarify, what I found to be strange is that person X considered the fact that I would almost certainly be supporting the US (I mean hell if I'm even in military intel....) to be unacceptable not in the sense that it seems like blind devotion, but in that I am not helping China.
In other words, the problem as person X sees it is not that I would be helping the US, the problem is that I wouldn't automatically be helping China rather than the US.
So, while I can understand the whole not black and white argument, and certainly you don't have to support your nation if you feel the nation's actions are wrong, my problem with person X is that they would automatically be supporting another nation which hypothetically is at war with the US.
I also wouldn't call this person an acquaintance in any way. I like to keep interaction to a minimum due to bad history, but that's not relevant to this blog.
To me it doesnt exactly matter-- you are viewing him as friend or enemy based on his allegiance to elites, rather than on his relationship to you. While you say you aren't unquestioningly obedient or against a specific government, you aren't that different than him in that allegiance is determining your actions, rather than basic human notions of decency or whatever.
To be fair, you're allowed to act however you want, not judging you, it's just my opinion that it leads to a more paranoid/unstable/unequal society.
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On January 19 2012 09:12 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 09:11 EtherealDeath wrote:
To clarify, what I found to be strange is that person X considered the fact that I would almost certainly be supporting the US (I mean hell if I'm even in military intel....) to be unacceptable not in the sense that it seems like blind devotion, but in that I am not helping China.
In other words, the problem as person X sees it is not that I would be helping the US, the problem is that I wouldn't automatically be helping China rather than the US.
So, while I can understand the whole not black and white argument, and certainly you don't have to support your nation if you feel the nation's actions are wrong, my problem with person X is that they would automatically be supporting another nation which hypothetically is at war with the US.
I also wouldn't call this person an acquaintance in any way. I like to keep interaction to a minimum due to bad history, but that's not relevant to this blog. To me it doesnt exactly matter-- you are viewing him as friend or enemy based on his allegiance to elites, rather than on his relationship to you. While you say you aren't unquestioningly obedient or against a specific government, you aren't that different than him in that allegiance is determining your actions, rather than basic human notions of decency or whatever.
No, I'm not making a view of friend or enemy on this. I would be perfectly fine with being an acquaintance of a person who held such views, as long as they are otherwise a good person. I just don't believe they should become citizens of a country if their initial allegiance - before taking into account circumstances - is not to said country.
A country is more than just the elites anyways. Sure the "elities" tend to initiate or start wars, but sometimes shit is forced on you as far as can be reasonably seen if you want to maintain the standard of living in your country. To be sure, the US has been more pre-emptive than defensive of late, but I'm speaking in terms of principles that hold before applying the existing circumstances surrounding each case, rather than the special circumstances themselves.
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On January 19 2012 09:15 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 09:12 caradoc wrote:On January 19 2012 09:11 EtherealDeath wrote:
To clarify, what I found to be strange is that person X considered the fact that I would almost certainly be supporting the US (I mean hell if I'm even in military intel....) to be unacceptable not in the sense that it seems like blind devotion, but in that I am not helping China.
In other words, the problem as person X sees it is not that I would be helping the US, the problem is that I wouldn't automatically be helping China rather than the US.
So, while I can understand the whole not black and white argument, and certainly you don't have to support your nation if you feel the nation's actions are wrong, my problem with person X is that they would automatically be supporting another nation which hypothetically is at war with the US.
I also wouldn't call this person an acquaintance in any way. I like to keep interaction to a minimum due to bad history, but that's not relevant to this blog. To me it doesnt exactly matter-- you are viewing him as friend or enemy based on his allegiance to elites, rather than on his relationship to you. While you say you aren't unquestioningly obedient or against a specific government, you aren't that different than him in that allegiance is determining your actions, rather than basic human notions of decency or whatever. No, I'm not making a view of friend or enemy on this. I would be perfectly fine with being an acquaintance of a person who held such views, as long as they are otherwise a good person. I just don't believe they should become citizens of a country if their initial allegiance - before taking into account circumstances - is not to said country.
Well, you did say you are seriously considering sabotaging his citizenship... not exactly the actions of a friend.
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EPT
