Protoss notebook pt.3: approaching Korean ladder

Netherlands12045 Posts

January 05 2012 22:04 GMT

Recently i have been playing a lot. At least 20 games a day if i am not in top 8 master on NA (currently rank 5 in my division). And by 20 i mostly count wins... so make it 30 40 =_=..

There are nothing much to talk about except the fact that i feel more comfortable since i break the 'wall'. The "wall" is something i prefer to call the invisible barrier that each starcraft player will have to face at least once. It is something determined by your nature talent and background education therefore you simply cant change it just in matter of hours. In fact, many pros has been facing their wall for months, even years and some for their entire life.

So what does it take to break a wall? Lot of effort and a good mind set i would say. Effort should come from the result of you wanting to be better than yourself. Not to beat the neighbor kids in a video game but to overcome one self. If you ever feel the thirst of victory down your throat every time you about to lose a game and GG out, if you ever feel the thought run through your head at that moment: i WISH i would have done X, You should be close to where i was. Take a look at BW pro scene for example. Behind all those S-class star such as Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Stork etc... are a bunch of A class, B class, C class that never make their face to the public. Hyuk is one of them and he has a 44% win rate for his entire career (which is, btw, VERY low). These players are constantly facing their own wall daily everyday with 10, 12 hours of practice and still have not gain any positive result. That is effort.

No this is Effort.....
But effort alone is not enough. Having effort is like having a ton of gas stockpiled up and if you dont know how to spend them properly, things will get screwed up and you will simply lose the game of 'LIFE'. This is where 'mind set' come in. Mind set is not a method, its not the transportation device that could take you to Olympia, no. It is a way of thinking, a way to generate thoughts correctly which then you could use those good thoughts into practice. Have you ever watch day9 daily and asked yourself a question: "How does he come up with this stuff?". A much better question would be: "How do I come up with these stuff?". Well the answer is the way the brain work for each person is different. For example, for me, when somebody asked me a question, despite if he serious or not and no matter how absurd the question is, i will try to dig in my memory, my bank of knowledge to find a good, reasonable and logical to response. Meanwhile same question most people just think of it as a joke and ignore or simply dont even think about it. And this is what happen in a daily basis.

Q: What do you think about zombie?

A: I think zombie should not be able to exist simply bc they eat brain therefore they will eat each other brains and without a brain there is nothing there to command the muscle which is required for them to move blah blah blah...

Its not about how correct your answer is, its about the effort of you trying to find answer to a tiniest question that you met in life. Brain stimulation is something you needed to reach a certain level of problem solving skill in starcraft. Constantly asking questions in game such as: What is he doing? How do i KNOW what is he doing? What should i do in response once i find out what he is doing and what should i do if i simply cannot find out? Trust me, it helps for every level. I think this is how you get smarter irl but im no science major so ...

Alright, now you have on your left hand effort and right hand is your mindset. Proceed to train in a mass quantity while guaranteeing the quality.

______________________________

Now let talk about my game plays in all 3 match up :D

PvP: I have started losing a quite a few games using forge phoenix lately but mostly bc i was playing greedy. I think it is good to 'tank' your ladder points to gather information about a build that only me and some no name korean use on ladder. The most problematic part about PvP right now is there is no 'tier' between players level. If you are GM doesnt mean your PvP is better than a high master... no. You cant read anything bc the random factor of them doing something completely bullshit that even themselves cant understand is wayyyy too high. Have you ever seen a guy just 4 gate until 10 mins mark and A move up a ramp? Its just completely confusing and chaotic.

Sure build such as robo blink build is stable but it rely on base trading to win games which i am completely not a fan of. I mean i just proxy my support bay somewhere else on the map and BOOM, colossi with range... You cant blink now can you? HA! (see replay attached)

I blame artosis to popularize such bullshit meta game. 'who ever expand first lose'... he clearly love the 4 gate feeling. In fact, i have recently watch a ton of korean Protoss stream and what they do is that once they get into that phase, they just pump out more immortal and split them out between nature and main to expand quite comfortably. Noticed how immortal do exponentially better the more you get them vs Blink stalkers. Unless you have a perfect game sense and execution (your obs gona get snipe and such), i think you should always play defensively with heavy immortal + 2 obs -> expand.
PvZ: my mid game opening is currently stuck. 90% of my stargates play got destroyed which make me question the viability of stargate play in this match up. Better yet i question the possibility that VR is not the right choice?

Think about it like this: what if you skip the VR and get 5 phoenix asap? The chance of you killing a hatchery with your VR is almost 0 anyway, any zerg has an evo in their build now a day so putting up 10 spores to save their 3rd is not that big of a deal. With 5 phoenixes, however, you could get a ton of scouting done. Same overlord damage and deny scouting ability. More drones kill + easier to snipe queen. The only bad part about this is to defend vs a roach rush which i believe could be held with FF and cannon while you cancel your phoenix and start a VR. More over phoenix give you an open path to counter mid game muta switch from zerg which most VR user cant do bc they are worried about hydra timing. I have not try this yet but in my head it work out perfectly. The damage dealt by lifting drones and queen should be more than enough so you could take a later 3rd.

Another thing about PvZ currently is the muta trend. A lot of people have problem with muta lings in general and i think i understand why. Lets take a look at Protoss mid game tech path: Robo, twilight and stargate. Only 2 out of these 3 could counter muta and they must be built with robo for general scouting/detection. What does this mean? Well you either gona go star-robo or twilight-robo in mid game PvZ. Noticed how if star-robo is a 'timing rush' kinda path, twilight-robo provides you with much better upgrades in general (+2 in forge require twilight) to enter a late game. In other words, twilight-robo is a much better stable tech path for a macro game in general.

This

is way better than this

Now once we agree that phoenixes are bullshit solution to muta ling, lets talk about how to counter muta ling with twilight robo. Personally i find observer is the key to this entire dynamic. I often get at least 3 obs out if i know my enemy is using muta bs strat. The key is not only to park the obs outside of your base to see the muta coming but also to scout what is he spending his minerals on: expand, spine or lings or gas switch. Each one of those 4 come separately and have a VERY different counter to each and everyone of them.
- If you see spines, this indicate that he is hoping for you to execute an all-in so he could do a simple base trade with spine support. What is going on inside the zerg head is that he gona wait you to attack the spines, fly muta lings in and snipe all of your nexus and come back by the time all the spines were dead. Best counter to this is just to expand with HT spread out with cannons to counter mutas. In case they force a base trade while you expanding and over extended yourself, make sure to make DT at a proxy location to preserve in case you kill his lair/hive. The chance of zergs having more than 2 overseer in game is very unlikely at any point any time and it is when DT become the most efficient.
- If you see lings, its gona be a timing attack. Make sure you wall off and holding a respectable amount of sentries to FF the lings while focusing down the mutas. If you have no sentries, make some archons, they help vs the lings too.
- Always have an obs patrol all the possible expansion and near by a cliff so you could shift blink up and snipe hatches. If you see him mass expo in this match up, you have to dance around while taking expansion yourself and macro up. Its important to do the traditional PvZ dance which force him to play more defensively than what he should have. Abuse the mobility of blink stalkers to the fullest and harass everywhere once his muta ball got smaller or out of position. Dont forget to get obs speed, it is more crucial the bigger the map is.
- Muta users also like to scare you off with the initial mutas and switch off to smthing dumb such as hydra or infestor. Its important to identify this by seeing his muta ball is not increasing in size and he is producing something other than ling and spines. Good way to counter this is just to rely on your cannons and blink stalkers to counter muta harass while concentrating all of your fire power (storm, colossi, zealot etc) at the front, ready for a huge attack. Expand when he expand, macro up like a baw. Keep all of your obs alive and replace them to know what he is making -> counter them correctly.(even though most of the time he just gona hold down the R key)
- ONE key point to all of the above is to keep your forge(s) alive and constantly running. If you lose 1, replace it Immediately without hesitation. +3 blink stalkers is currently the core of every of my PvZ atm. Late game they are just so mobile and cheap, easy to replace. Trading blink stalkers to zerg mining bases should be my favorite thing to do recently xD. But yeah, keep your forge(s) alive and running, it is the key and is the main reason why you go twilight tech path from beginning.
PvT: sadly not much Terran are patient enough to play this match up straight up anymore. They proxy rax, they 1/1/1, they FAKE 1/1/1 into expand into 2/2/2 into 3/3/3 =_=... al sort of good jazz. But i dont blame them, i often win vs a normal standard bio user.

The trick to play vs bio is mostly to get 1 tech path and immediately switch once terran scout them. In case they dont scout them, show it to them yourself and switch. I remember so many times terran made like 8 10 viking just to kill my 1 colossi while my charge archons tearing through his medivac less bio. (note to self: save more chrono for +1 +1 and cut probes)

Mech TvP is hard to deal with. It is simply just way too cost efficient if used properly. Banshee, tanks, marines, scv... they are the best units in the game in general. Sometime i just look at a Terran army and think to myself: you could afford that much gas? They literally have cloak banshee harass 3 of my bases to force more observer which simply mean less colossi and immortal to counter marines tank. I like the part where terran players learn how to bunker up when they push with tanks. they made like 10 of them before they slow push into their nature... It shit like these i have to bull dog them BW style with warp prism =_=...

A key to counter containment is early self-proxy, You basicly make a pylon where you would normally hide in a PvP but on your side of the map. Therefore if any sort of containment happen, you could warp stuff in from the other side and perform a surrounding attack vs the tank wall of death.

====================

So i bought a korean account :D
Korean players are cute :3
4-0 placements, i still got match with silver so i decided to cheese my last placement.
2 gate proxy vs Zerg and the guy held it off pretty much perfectly. Turns out he is Gold =_=...

If in NA, thing go like this:

Bronze: no nothing
silver: know smthing
gold: start using hotkeys
plat: trying to be good
diamond: slight hint of build order
master: learning macro

In korea, its like this:

Bronze: know to use hotkeys
Silver: know the very basic RTS fundamental such as spending resources and expanding
gold: know solid build order
Plat: know how to transition inside a build order
Diamond: learning for better decision making.

What does this mean? well basicly Korean is not an imba race. They are grown up in a strong RTS background therefore their fundamental are much stronger then most sever. Imagine you are competing in a baking contest in US for example. A teenager could simply make a cake bc he saw his mom do it time to time when he grew up but an asian teenager cant bc we grew up eating rice. We still can learn, but we are fundamentally 1 step behind.

Currently im still 100% w/r after placement on my KR acc and i just beat top 8 diamond (i am top 8 plat atm). Hoping that i will get promoted to master soon

. Low master will do.

I love korean where the higher level you get, the more often people typed GG after they lose. It is such and important sign of a person respecting the other player and admit their defeat. It is so important to tell yourself it is not the other player fault that you lose the game and pay him respect and admire. By doing that you could reflect upon yourself therefore realize and fix your mistake much much better. This is why korean favor mannerism so much and was being really harsh on the Naniwa incident. Im glad that naniwa learned his lesson and keep on improving

Forgot to mention, the ping (TW sever) is wonderful playing from Ontario, Canada. Its like really minor latency compare to NA sever. Ofc if you play zerg you will have some trouble in ZvZ with lings vs banelings but hey... I play protoss

.

+++++++++++++++++++

How do i ladder on NA:

There are phases in a ladder day:
The previous day wins streak:
result of a furious night plowing through nerds field harvesting their ladder points.

The early day 'warm up':
ahhhh losing to dumb stuff =_=... mostly my fault for not playing well. Missing FF, bad control, false confident carrying over from previous day

And the end of thee day come back to gain 50% w/r:
nothing much to say, my mmr drop so i just get bad players and win :-/... This is a perfect chance trying out strat that you have never try before. DT rush, 1 base VR etc... all the good all-in builds

. Fail some but no big deal :D Its important that you learn something from doing it though.

I find out 4 gates prism is incredible strong vs Terran. In case you feel the aggression, you could always cancel the prism and build defensive units. Your push should come way before 1/1/1 cloak and you have a robo anyway. The best part is you stay on 1 gas so it could be mistaken for a 1 gate expand.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
+ Show Spoiler +

Decorating this blog is almost a full time job :-/
If you look at my part 2, it has not even half as much views as the first part. Simply bc i dont have time to decorate it... =_=

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This week replays:
Self proxy demonstration In PvT to break tanks bunker wall.
http://drop.sc/85264

Why i hate artosis PvP style
http://drop.sc/85265

Replay me playing vs a top diamond Z on KR sever. + Show Spoiler +

He used muta btw, good to learn.

http://drop.sc/85268

Hmm, idk what else i could add into this blog. Seem like a lot of people enjoy reading it so i will try to make it weekly :D.
Peace,
NB.

P/s: this is you right now:
+ Show Spoiler +

or+ Show Spoiler +

nanaoei

3358 Posts

January 06 2012 00:20 GMT

well, i was planning on posting a reply after the effort bit, then scrolled down,
down some more, until the very last spoiler. i did read all though, haha
it is all good and nice.

when i'm asked 'absurd' starcraft questions, i do react as though what they just asked was ridiculous in some way.
i guess truthfully, it is a waste of time to explain a greater/general idea that has a purpose, to a player who is very set on their own ideas and methods. even when i watch games, my judgment of the game can be very simple.
'if only so and so happened...'

many players are satisfied with their play,
so this is what i would refer to as a wall, simply because they don't want to perfect themselves, or feel the need to do so.

i expect a lot from players who are constantly using math, logic, and (good&bad) experiences to apply to their play.
--moreso math lately, because it is such a fresh game, and i like this part about starcraft in which every little thing matters.

i don't know about 3/3/3 in P v T : P but it sounds dirty if it really happens and works.

Ulfsark

United States958 Posts

January 06 2012 00:41 GMT

I actually learned something from this and I am a pretty experienced player.

Whenever I play vs mutas all I can think abut it "oh fuck oh fuck mutas need storm" etc etc

I never thought to scout and figure out where their minerals are going.

thanks!

Netherlands12045 Posts

January 06 2012 01:04 GMT

On January 06 2012 09:20 nanaoei wrote:
well, i was planning on posting a reply after the effort bit, then scrolled down,
down some more, until the very last spoiler. i did read all though, haha
it is all good and nice.

when i'm asked 'absurd' starcraft questions, i do react as though what they just asked was ridiculous in some way.
i guess truthfully, it is a waste of time to explain a greater/general idea that has a purpose, to a player who is very set on their own ideas and methods. even when i watch games, my judgment of the game can be very simple.
'if only so and so happened...'

many players are satisfied with their play,
so this is what i would refer to as a wall, simply because they don't want to perfect themselves, or feel the need to do so.

i expect a lot from players who are constantly using math, logic, and (good&bad) experiences to apply to their play.
--moreso math lately, because it is such a fresh game, and i like this part about starcraft in which every little thing matters.

i don't know about 3/3/3 in P v T : P but it sounds dirty if it really happens and works.

hmm good point. Its hard for me to put myself in a casual player perspective since i has always been so competitive in gaming :D.
It is true though, that i have never wanted to get better in games like counter strike or TF2... so it might apply to your point. I guess you have to 'love' the game enough to want to get better at it? hmm...

but yeah, if you watch the PvT replay i posted, you could see the Terran went 2 rax 2 fact(techlab) 2 port(techlabs) and pump out tanks banshee marines constantly. What is so great about the build is that this is the only build i have seen terran actually spent all of their gas in contrast of bio play where they usually end up with 3k gas and no minerals. I think terran mech is clearly underdeveloped simply banshee is really hard to use on high level PvT effectively.

laLAlA[uC]

Canada963 Posts

January 06 2012 01:06 GMT

Why are your blogs always some of the most entertaining

Netherlands12045 Posts

January 06 2012 01:30 GMT

On January 06 2012 10:06 laLAlA[uC] wrote:
Why are your blogs always some of the most entertaining

watch the replays, they are much better :D

Clazziquai10

Singapore1949 Posts

January 06 2012 03:15 GMT

I'm one of those guys who's feeling like that right now.

Love your sense of humour btw, keep it up!!!

peidongyang

Canada2084 Posts

January 06 2012 03:47 GMT

if you're top 8 in NA then you shouldn't have too much problem making masters, at least top 8 diamond in kr.

it kinda lags a bit too much tho i kr (ffs lag, blink lags, really a pain in the arse)

Netherlands12045 Posts

January 06 2012 05:01 GMT

On January 06 2012 12:47 peidongyang wrote:
if you're top 8 in NA then you shouldn't have too much problem making masters, at least top 8 diamond in kr.

it kinda lags a bit too much tho i kr (ffs lag, blink lags, really a pain in the arse)

where are you in canada? I just played a 4v4 and its not that bad really (8 people inside a game usually cause ton of lag)