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This is my rant on what is frustrating me in the higher levels of TvP gameplay atm. You may call this as bias all you want but I won't rant without any theory crafting or explanation behind it, so read carefully and understand what I am saying before posting. Yes I am a Terran player.
My main concern is the late game part of TvP and the balance of how both players control their battles. Basically looking at both sides of the coin, the terran player has to micro his ass off to be as cost effective with his bio. Making sure he target fires with his vikings and spread his units to avoid storms while countering it with EMPs. If at any point that the 4-5 colosus lands a major hit on a bunch of marines it can be devastating. It seems the terran has to worry a lot more than the protoss player. I've seen countless streams of pro players just A moving then storming a bit then jumping back to macroing not caring what happens during the fight, especially zealot archon compositions. I mean there really isn't much micro needed if you are toss. You can't micro colossus aganist vikings they are going to die so the best logical thing is to just let them fire as must as possible before dieing. Only best thing is to target fire with the stalkers but thats an easy shift click away. Avoid EMPs? Naa.. just spread HTs in 2 seconds and do feedback by minimap.
As the game drags longer it seems terrans need to make less marines and more marauder to tank all this influx of damage and kite those chargelots. On another point I am so frustrated about is the warp in mechanic. When both players have a large bank and the protoss has 30+ warp gates litterally and can warp in reinforcements in 5 secs. Its almost impossible to fight a 200 max with that kind of broken mechanic no matter if I have 30 raxs of my own, I still have to walk up to the fight, that doesn't put in the fact that raxes won't always be in the same base, while the toss's entire army will always be maxed. Even grouping armies are easy for the protoss. Usually they warp in then hotkey control group them at the same time. They don't either look around for units to hotkey or to stim to run up to battle quicker in the mist of battle. So that adds into the time management part that toss has the upper hand in. You could say the same thing with zerg but its a bit different since it takes time to hatch and when you want to make different types of units so you can't just hotkey them while they are in larva mode.
I've seen traits with my protoss practice partners and other tosses on the ladder that support this. When it comes to multi-prone attacks or more multitasking they totally fall apart. Somethings that I feel I could do fast and accurately becomes a hassle for others. For example, a toss sends the majority of his army to the zerg's 3rd base which consisted the usual comp of colo, senty, zealot, stalker. While the zerg roach counter attacks to the natual. For one its an easy situation for me. I would just drop 2 forcefields at the ramp's natural and tend my main army. But for the toss player he has idle army just standing around, doesn't have all the army ready to attack the zerg's natural as soon as the 3rd drops. These reaction times I am seeing shows the 'lower' standards that protoss players have by playing this race. There are a ton more examples I've seen thur streams of semi-pro players and my experiences when I myself start doing 3-4 drops at a time while still able to macro like a god and punish tosses for being out of position.
I wouldn't be ranting this hard if it wasn't for the colossus. I just feel this unit makes the game so dam passive. Protoss can get away with a lot by just using FF and colosus range to get ahead in tech during the mid game. They rely on this a little bit too much. I would much perfer if the matchup consisted of ghost v templar battles. Atleast it would be much more interesting with the colo out of the picture. Protoss would have to actually micro more since they don't have something that can kill bio in 2 shots. This unit is like a mobile siege tank, its better than the tank imo. Atleast the tank requires thought process in how to position it, the colo is just another unit to just hotkey with your main. Doesn't require any special treatment or care. Maybe another point I could make is if the marauder didn't hard counter the stalker so hard. Its not that rewading to indivdually blinking your stalkers when the medivacs will just heal them, I'd be really happy if we removed the marauder and colo or change them both.
Lastly the immortal. Why so? It hard counters basically anything that comes out of the factory. That just leaves the terran to just having bio as their only option. Atleast in the other matchups both bio, bio/mech, pure mech are very much viable. But for TvP its basically always the same dam compositions bio/viking/medivac/ghost. You could say bio/mech is viable but imo its easily countered with zealot/archon. There are no ranged units for the tanks to fire at so they will kill their own marines. How boring. It makes the scouting for the toss not needed. You don't have to know what composition he is going because you will always assume bio. You won't be surprised with a bunch of hellions suddenly appear. While on the other hand, the terran always needs to react to the toss. Needs to react if he is going templars, then get quicker ghosts then usual, He get robo, get vikings. Its a balance that the terran has to worry about while the toss doesn't need to worry about this crap due to every tech route basically counters bio, except stargate. This unit needs to be a tanker not a damage dealer to mech. It just makes meching too weak in the early stages of the game to get to that 200 max mech army, Too cost effective for the toss. This is not to say I havn't experimented with mech myself. I have done tons of testing with a variety of mech builds and none imo are safe enough. Its just not rewarding enough to mech aganist toss atm. Either remove bonus damage to mech for the immortal and increase the damage of tanks from 35 to 40 to light so that they still can't 1 shot marines but makes it 1 less shot aganist zealots while not effecting zerglings at all. Many problems comes to mind when meching TvP. Blink/void ray/immortal. In BW mech was possible because the voidray equivalent was the scout which did crap dmg to ground so one turret would hold of like 4 scouts. There was no blink so you didn't have to worry about units attacking your backside too early so you can expand quicker than sc2 because it requires fewer tanks to protect your angles. No immortal that can soak up your tanks in 3 shots.
I believe I've made some valid arguments. Again this isn't much of a qq thread but more about the advantage and disadvantages of the races and whether this is a mechanic flaw and should be fixed. There are a ton more I would like to discuss but it would be a novel to explain them all. Please keep your posts with some counter arguments and not just some comment without having backing to it.
Thanks for reading.
 
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I'm with you dude.
I'm a Master Terran, have quite good TvT, really good TvZ but my TvP is awful. I have spent weeks upon weeks practicing just TvP, and it really comes down to one thing: You must only engage the Protoss main army if you have no other alternative, which is easier said than done.
Your post sums up nicely everything that is completely messed up with the matchup. It's a fucking joke.
I think most Terrans are struggling bigtime with TvP.
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I agree completely. Masters Terran, and as of late I've been giving it up on taking it past 3 base with Protoss. Sure, I can get the excellent engagement at least 50% of the time, but the other 50% is an instant loss and it just gets too frustrating to deal with.
I can imagine the frustration of getting killed by 2base timing attacks on the protoss end, too. Hopefully HoTS smooths TvP out a little bit. :D
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On December 01 2011 11:53 Psychobabas wrote:
I'm with you dude.
I'm a Master Terran, have quite good TvT, really good TvZ but my TvP is awful. I have spent weeks upon weeks practicing just TvP, and it really comes down to one thing: You must only engage the Protoss main army if you have no other alternative, which is easier said than done.
Your post sums up nicely everything that is completely messed up with the matchup. It's a fucking joke.
I think most Terrans are struggling bigtime with TvP.
If only there was a build with 90% winrate...
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Typically when I play TvP I never try to engage a toss army head on, as you will usually lose unless you are 100% confident that you will steamroll him. I usually use dropships to move his army around the map, and try to capitalize on that. Like for example, you double drop tosses main, and kill off his warpin units. Now he is forced to move his army home to stop the drop from killing everything. At this point if he is moving in a crappy straight line I will flank him from the side and catch the tail half of his army, and he is forced to regroup and attack into my army. This forces him to ignore the drop for longer period of time. If he doesnt ignore the drop then I usually kill the tail end of his army, and run away. As he starts cleaning up the drop in his mainbase, I drop his 3rd base at the sametime. As he goes from his main to his 3rd to defend the drop I once again use my main army to catch him out of position.
I feel that using tosses positioning is what will win you games after the midgame, and that typically approaching it thinking you can win in a head on battle is wrong. In a way its like guerilla warfare in that I try to spread him thin and capitalize on it.
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On December 01 2011 12:05 eXigent. wrote:
Typically when I play TvP I never try to engage a toss army head on, as you will usually lose unless you are 100% confident that you will steamroll him. I usually use dropships to move his army around the map, and try to capitalize on that. Like for example, you double drop tosses main, and kill off his warpin units. Now he is forced to move his army home to stop the drop from killing everything. At this point if he is moving in a crappy straight line I will flank him from the side and catch the tail half of his army, and he is forced to regroup and attack into my army. This forces him to ignore the drop for longer period of time. If he doesnt ignore the drop then I usually kill the tail end of his army, and run away. As he starts cleaning up the drop in his mainbase, I drop his 3rd base at the sametime. As he goes from his main to his 3rd to defend the drop I once again use my main army to catch him out of position.
I feel that using tosses positioning is what will win you games after the midgame, and that typically approaching it thinking you can win in a head on battle is wrong. In a way its like guerilla warfare in that I try to spread him thin and capitalize on it.
I like your post. It is exactly that, guerilla warfare.
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On December 01 2011 12:05 eXigent. wrote:
Typically when I play TvP I never try to engage a toss army head on, as you will usually lose unless you are 100% confident that you will steamroll him. I usually use dropships to move his army around the map, and try to capitalize on that. Like for example, you double drop tosses main, and kill off his warpin units. Now he is forced to move his army home to stop the drop from killing everything. At this point if he is moving in a crappy straight line I will flank him from the side and catch the tail half of his army, and he is forced to regroup and attack into my army. This forces him to ignore the drop for longer period of time. If he doesnt ignore the drop then I usually kill the tail end of his army, and run away. As he starts cleaning up the drop in his mainbase, I drop his 3rd base at the sametime. As he goes from his main to his 3rd to defend the drop I once again use my main army to catch him out of position.
I feel that using tosses positioning is what will win you games after the midgame, and that typically approaching it thinking you can win in a head on battle is wrong. In a way its like guerilla warfare in that I try to spread him thin and capitalize on it.
My entire post is based upon the protoss playing have really good positioning and making very few mistakes. This is very high top players I am playing aganist on ladder that the stuff you say never works since they sit there in 3 bases and it is hard to do drop play to do any sort of damage. yes you can maybe pick off a gas gesyer or a pylon but many of the major buildings will be tucked away and not accessible by drop play. Only like mid master levels I would see this working but at my level I hardly ever able to capatialize on this.
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You have things back to front...you need more marines and less marauders to deal with zealots lategame
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On December 01 2011 12:10 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:05 eXigent. wrote:
Typically when I play TvP I never try to engage a toss army head on, as you will usually lose unless you are 100% confident that you will steamroll him. I usually use dropships to move his army around the map, and try to capitalize on that. Like for example, you double drop tosses main, and kill off his warpin units. Now he is forced to move his army home to stop the drop from killing everything. At this point if he is moving in a crappy straight line I will flank him from the side and catch the tail half of his army, and he is forced to regroup and attack into my army. This forces him to ignore the drop for longer period of time. If he doesnt ignore the drop then I usually kill the tail end of his army, and run away. As he starts cleaning up the drop in his mainbase, I drop his 3rd base at the sametime. As he goes from his main to his 3rd to defend the drop I once again use my main army to catch him out of position.
I feel that using tosses positioning is what will win you games after the midgame, and that typically approaching it thinking you can win in a head on battle is wrong. In a way its like guerilla warfare in that I try to spread him thin and capitalize on it. My entire post is based upon the protoss playing have really good positioning and making very few mistakes. This is very high top players I am playing aganist on ladder that the stuff you say never works since they sit there in 3 bases and it is hard to do drop play to do any sort of damage. yes you can maybe pick off a gas gesyer or a pylon but many of the major buildings will be tucked away and not accessible by drop play. Only like mid master levels I would see this working but at my level I hardly ever able to capatialize on this.
I learnt how to play that way by watching top terrans in the GSL. Drop play in TvP is almost a necessity. I am confused about what you mean by not being able to drop? Either he is sitting on the map controlling it with his army, or he is sitting in his main (who does that?). What im trying to say is that his main wont have his army there so it is always open for drops. Secondly, who cares if all you can pick off is a geyser...the point is to force him to use his main army to come clean up the drop, which allows you to capitalize on his positioning as he moves home. Your main goal is to kill his warp-in units and force him to send a portion of his army. As he goes to clean the drop in his main, you drop his 3rd base. He cannot be everywhere at once, and either hes gonna lose a shit ton in his main, hes gonna lose his 3rd, or hes gonna have terrible positioning and your army is going to be able to kill a portion of his basically for free.
Post a few replays and people can better understand what you are struggling with.
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On December 01 2011 12:14 Ruscour wrote:
You have things back to front...you need more marines and less marauders to deal with zealots lategame
I agree that marines can deal with the zealots but with the number of colossus/archons and low hp of the marines with the addition of storms from my experience atleast my marauders can buffer enough for the medivacs to keep healing them. Aswell as the marauder's raidus is larger so storm would be less effect if clumped. Only about 20% of my bio will be in marines.
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On December 01 2011 12:19 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:10 gfever wrote:On December 01 2011 12:05 eXigent. wrote:
Typically when I play TvP I never try to engage a toss army head on, as you will usually lose unless you are 100% confident that you will steamroll him. I usually use dropships to move his army around the map, and try to capitalize on that. Like for example, you double drop tosses main, and kill off his warpin units. Now he is forced to move his army home to stop the drop from killing everything. At this point if he is moving in a crappy straight line I will flank him from the side and catch the tail half of his army, and he is forced to regroup and attack into my army. This forces him to ignore the drop for longer period of time. If he doesnt ignore the drop then I usually kill the tail end of his army, and run away. As he starts cleaning up the drop in his mainbase, I drop his 3rd base at the sametime. As he goes from his main to his 3rd to defend the drop I once again use my main army to catch him out of position.
I feel that using tosses positioning is what will win you games after the midgame, and that typically approaching it thinking you can win in a head on battle is wrong. In a way its like guerilla warfare in that I try to spread him thin and capitalize on it. My entire post is based upon the protoss playing have really good positioning and making very few mistakes. This is very high top players I am playing aganist on ladder that the stuff you say never works since they sit there in 3 bases and it is hard to do drop play to do any sort of damage. yes you can maybe pick off a gas gesyer or a pylon but many of the major buildings will be tucked away and not accessible by drop play. Only like mid master levels I would see this working but at my level I hardly ever able to capatialize on this. I learnt how to play that way by watching top terrans in the GSL. Drop play in TvP is almost a necessity. I am confused about what you mean by not being able to drop? Either he is sitting on the map controlling it with his army, or he is sitting in his main (who does that?). What im trying to say is that his main wont have his army there so it is always open for drops. Secondly, who cares if all you can pick off is a geyser...the point is to force him to use his main army to come clean up the drop, which allows you to capitalize on his positioning as he moves home. Your main goal is to kill his warp-in units and force him to send a portion of his army. As he goes to clean the drop in his main, you drop his 3rd base. He cannot be everywhere at once, and either hes gonna lose a shit ton in his main, hes gonna lose his 3rd, or hes gonna have terrible positioning and your army is going to be able to kill a portion of his basically for free. Post a few replays and people can better understand what you are struggling with.
We are talking about templars ready to feedback the medivacs, stalkers in position to deny and snipe the the drops. If that doesn't kill them warp ins will certainly do. With that they increasingly chrono their double forge upgrades and get 3/3 quicker even tho you started your upgrades a min earlier. Your play will be increasly effective once bases get to around 4-6 bases. But still smarted toss will have couple cannons in each base.
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On December 01 2011 12:24 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:19 eXigent. wrote:On December 01 2011 12:10 gfever wrote:On December 01 2011 12:05 eXigent. wrote:
Typically when I play TvP I never try to engage a toss army head on, as you will usually lose unless you are 100% confident that you will steamroll him. I usually use dropships to move his army around the map, and try to capitalize on that. Like for example, you double drop tosses main, and kill off his warpin units. Now he is forced to move his army home to stop the drop from killing everything. At this point if he is moving in a crappy straight line I will flank him from the side and catch the tail half of his army, and he is forced to regroup and attack into my army. This forces him to ignore the drop for longer period of time. If he doesnt ignore the drop then I usually kill the tail end of his army, and run away. As he starts cleaning up the drop in his mainbase, I drop his 3rd base at the sametime. As he goes from his main to his 3rd to defend the drop I once again use my main army to catch him out of position.
I feel that using tosses positioning is what will win you games after the midgame, and that typically approaching it thinking you can win in a head on battle is wrong. In a way its like guerilla warfare in that I try to spread him thin and capitalize on it. My entire post is based upon the protoss playing have really good positioning and making very few mistakes. This is very high top players I am playing aganist on ladder that the stuff you say never works since they sit there in 3 bases and it is hard to do drop play to do any sort of damage. yes you can maybe pick off a gas gesyer or a pylon but many of the major buildings will be tucked away and not accessible by drop play. Only like mid master levels I would see this working but at my level I hardly ever able to capatialize on this. I learnt how to play that way by watching top terrans in the GSL. Drop play in TvP is almost a necessity. I am confused about what you mean by not being able to drop? Either he is sitting on the map controlling it with his army, or he is sitting in his main (who does that?). What im trying to say is that his main wont have his army there so it is always open for drops. Secondly, who cares if all you can pick off is a geyser...the point is to force him to use his main army to come clean up the drop, which allows you to capitalize on his positioning as he moves home. Your main goal is to kill his warp-in units and force him to send a portion of his army. As he goes to clean the drop in his main, you drop his 3rd base. He cannot be everywhere at once, and either hes gonna lose a shit ton in his main, hes gonna lose his 3rd, or hes gonna have terrible positioning and your army is going to be able to kill a portion of his basically for free. Post a few replays and people can better understand what you are struggling with. We are talking about templars ready to feedback the medivacs, stalkers in position to deny and snipe the the drops. If that doesn't kill them warp ins will certainly do. With that they increasingly chrono their double forge upgrades and get 3/3 quicker even tho you started your upgrades a min earlier. Your play will be increasly effective once bases get to around 4-6 bases. But still smarted toss will have couple cannons in each base.
Sorry, I guess I wasnt as specific as I wanted to be. What im trying to say is you are doing drops starting in the midgame, as soon as you have medivacs. If he opens colossus then he's not gonna have templars sitting in his main. He *might* still have stalkers there, but the more he leaves there the smaller his army is (midgame). With good scouting you will always find a hole in his main. So from the midgame you start dropping, and using this to continually force him around the map, and possibly cause him to either delay his 3rd, or drop it and kill it before he gets there.
Constantly slowing him down this way will certainly add up as the game goes on, and might even provide a chance to engage his army headon when he is out of position.
IF you want to see how a terran can use drops effectively mid game, then watch Select vs Alicia in the GSL (a few months ago). He uses drops to absolutely crush alicia during the midgame. His style of play in that game is exactly what im talking about when it comes to forcing a protoss to move around the map.
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I can't say the matchup is imbalanced, but to me it looks like the least skilled matchup by far on both sides. There's just so little actual strategy to it, and it's just bio ball vs. death ball with some spellcasting mixed in. They need to make tanks viable in the mid game, and they need to replace colossus with storms.
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erm am I the only T that doesn't have problems TvP because I win in the midgame or earlier and if in the late game do as said above Drop Alot not an instant win but if it gets to late its leave or Harras
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On December 01 2011 11:41 gfever wrote:
I've seen traits with my protoss practice partners and other tosses on the ladder that support this. When it comes to multi-prone attacks or more multitasking they totally fall apart. Somethings that I feel I could do fast and accurately becomes a hassle for others. For example, a toss sends the majority of his army to the zerg's 3rd base which consisted the usual comp of colo, senty, zealot, stalker. While the zerg roach counter attacks to the natual. For one its an easy situation for me. I would just drop 2 forcefields at the ramp's natural and tend my main army. But for the toss player he has idle army just standing around, doesn't have all the army ready to attack the zerg's natural as soon as the 3rd drops. These reaction times I am seeing shows the 'lower' standards that protoss players have by playing this race. There are a ton more examples I've seen thur streams of semi-pro players and my experiences when I myself start doing 3-4 drops at a time while still able to macro like a god and punish tosses for being out of position.
Yes. So exploit this. But I would argue that this isn't a lack of skill on the part of the toss. Rather, it is the result of our recognition that for the most part, our army works best as one unit (I admit exceptions, especially in ZvP where I use rogue bands of zealots to snipe tech and hatcheries).
What confuses me is that you have actually identified a weakness in the toss race here. And rather than highlighting and emphasizing how you might exploit this weakness and thus make the MU easier for you, you attribute this to the bad multitasking of toss players.
If you are sneaky enough to get a drop into my base without me seeing it, and I have just used my warp-ins across the map, it doesn't matter how much multitasking skill I have. I have to chrono my gates...possibly my robo, pull probes, and delay until I can get out the units necessary to retard your attack. The exception is templar. And I've started using them defensively. But damn it feels awkward to leave 6-10 supply in army behind just to defend.
I'm cool with you expressing your frustrations with this MU as I experienced it back in January/February and switched to random. Now I play toss and I think I see both sides of the MU pretty clearly. It is tough on both sides. I'm only diamond so I am sure you are higher than me. But even watching pro toss streams, Terran are able to drop.
tl;dr Please express your frustration. But also step back and take advantage of the weaknesses that you recognize. Punish us for having trouble dealing with splitting up our army to defend. Drop multiple locations. Bait our army one direction and attack somewhere else. You already see what you need to do to make the MU easier on yourself. Do it.
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On December 01 2011 13:28 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 11:41 gfever wrote:
I've seen traits with my protoss practice partners and other tosses on the ladder that support this. When it comes to multi-prone attacks or more multitasking they totally fall apart. Somethings that I feel I could do fast and accurately becomes a hassle for others. For example, a toss sends the majority of his army to the zerg's 3rd base which consisted the usual comp of colo, senty, zealot, stalker. While the zerg roach counter attacks to the natual. For one its an easy situation for me. I would just drop 2 forcefields at the ramp's natural and tend my main army. But for the toss player he has idle army just standing around, doesn't have all the army ready to attack the zerg's natural as soon as the 3rd drops. These reaction times I am seeing shows the 'lower' standards that protoss players have by playing this race. There are a ton more examples I've seen thur streams of semi-pro players and my experiences when I myself start doing 3-4 drops at a time while still able to macro like a god and punish tosses for being out of position.
Yes. So exploit this. But I would argue that this isn't a lack of skill on the part of the toss. Rather, it is the result of our recognition that for the most part, our army works best as one unit (I admit exceptions, especially in ZvP where I use rogue bands of zealots to snipe tech and hatcheries). What confuses me is that you have actually identified a weakness in the toss race here. And rather than highlighting and emphasizing how you might exploit this weakness and thus make the MU easier for you, you attribute this to the bad multitasking of toss players. If you are sneaky enough to get a drop into my base without me seeing it, and I have just used my warp-ins across the map, it doesn't matter how much multitasking skill I have. I have to chrono my gates...possibly my robo, pull probes, and delay until I can get out the units necessary to retard your attack. The exception is templar. And I've started using them defensively. But damn it feels awkward to leave 6-10 supply in army behind just to defend. I'm cool with you expressing your frustrations with this MU as I experienced it back in January/February and switched to random. Now I play toss and I think I see both sides of the MU pretty clearly. It is tough on both sides. I'm only diamond so I am sure you are higher than me. But even watching pro toss streams, Terran are able to drop. tl;dr Please express your frustration. But also step back and take advantage of the weaknesses that you recognize. Punish us for having trouble dealing with splitting up our army to defend. Drop multiple locations. Bait our army one direction and attack somewhere else. You already see what you need to do to make the MU easier on yourself. Do it.
i am only showing the skill required to play protoss, not exactly the skill levels of protosses i am playing.. Of course the protoss players I play are able to split their armies and position them correctly to avoid drop plays easily while ready to forcefield the ramp if I attack straight on, which forces me to play the late game. Also leaving a couple units behind to defend is normal. Until it gets to a 4th base cannons will start going down to replace this with templar ready to feedback. If you rely on your opponent to make a major mistake it is not a good strategy imo. Pure perfection vs pure perfection builds are what I am basing this on.
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That's a bad way to think about games, there is no such thing as perfection. Both players are ALWAYS going to be making mistakes, and the player who makes the fewer/smaller mistakes will end up winning. It's pretty simple, really.
So, watch your replays, recognize and fix your mistakes. Win more games.
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Yeah I'm also not satisfied with the games against Toss. Eventhough I'm not total shit in that matchup and still have a decent win rate, it feels so exhausting playing against toss and sometimes you have such a high effort and just get steamrolled by a toss who nearly does nothing in fights. It really feels like I do 5 times more than my opponent and still get rolled, thats very frustrating and most of the time when losing against toss, I can't say "yeah that guy played very well" or "wow I did a stupid mistake to lose that" while in the other matchups I can.
And yeah I also feel like you need to have a more marine heavy composition against Zealot/Archon and even against Gateway Units in general the DPS is fairly high. The only Problem is that Colossi just burn your marines and thus make it impossible to have a high Marine Count, you would have to split really well. I saw Marineking have like 3 Barracks with Techlab and the other 10 had reactors, ofcourse he has outstanding unit control which very very few people have. I really think that matchup needs to get tweaked alot.
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Tbh I felt toss late game was broken when I started playing back in Sept of 2010. I'm only winning about 67% of my tvps in masters right now so take the following for what it is, but if late game is broken, it's broken. There's no use in complaining if you're still trying to win. You should put your strategies and game goals into preventing the late game. If your goal for the game is to take bases, scout, macro, deal with colossus/ht balls, keep your money low, and take bases, I think you're doing it wrong. Most of my success has been in shifting my goals for tvp. My entire build and strategy revolves around never letting protoss secure a 4th base, unless it's his only mining base and i'm on at least 2 mining bases.
tl;dr: if the late game is broken, you should do everything to can to prevent it from getting there.
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actually blizzard should do anything to make it not broken?
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I really don't agree with this blog, while I appreciate the amount of effort you put into it. Although I really don't want to put a 1,000 word essay on why I disagree. I honestly feel like T is in great shape the entire game tvp, and their lategame is much better than that of the protoss. I have seen countless Terrans agree with this idea.
You should check out lastshadow's video blogs on how to play TvP.
Can be found here : http://www.youtube.com/user/gosugamersnet/videos?query=vlog
Hopefully after watching this, you will have a better understanding of the matchup and realize just how doomed the protoss is all game, assuming you play properly.
5/5 blog good write up.
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I could have written this myself. I can't stand TvP, and I hate playing it to such an extent that it makes me want to quit the game entirely. It's immensly frustrating losing to turtle protoss over and over again. I've read lastshadow's blog and other guides on TvP, and I've attempted to incorporate it, but the late game micro is just so difficult for me and it seems so incredibly easy for the protoss. Every late game TvP ends with my army going splat basically doing no damage to his.
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On April 14 2012 08:42 trias_e wrote:
I could have written this myself. I can't stand TvP, and I hate playing it to such an extent that it makes me want to quit the game entirely. It's immensly frustrating losing to turtle protoss over and over again. I've read lastshadow's blog and other guides on TvP, and I've attempted to incorporate it, but the late game micro is just so difficult for me and it seems so incredibly easy for the protoss. Every late game TvP ends with my army going splat basically doing no damage to his.
Then why don't you do what EVERY SINGLE TERRAN DOES.
5rax, starport reactor push herpderp win game.
Or just get better control.
The best part about this push is, you do it while getting an expansion, double engi bay, and w.e else you want. And 80% of the time you just win the game without even having to worry about the late game.
And don't say "Oh only works vs noobs". I watch progamers, and just regular ladder terrans do it. And the result is always the same. Protoss dying.
So try that out imo ^
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On April 14 2012 09:31 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 08:42 trias_e wrote:
I could have written this myself. I can't stand TvP, and I hate playing it to such an extent that it makes me want to quit the game entirely. It's immensly frustrating losing to turtle protoss over and over again. I've read lastshadow's blog and other guides on TvP, and I've attempted to incorporate it, but the late game micro is just so difficult for me and it seems so incredibly easy for the protoss. Every late game TvP ends with my army going splat basically doing no damage to his. Then why don't you do what EVERY SINGLE TERRAN DOES. 5rax, starport reactor push herpderp win game. Or just get better control. The best part about this push is, you do it while getting an expansion, double engi bay, and w.e else you want. And 80% of the time you just win the game without even having to worry about the late game. And don't say "Oh only works vs noobs". I watch progamers, and just regular ladder terrans do it. And the result is always the same. Protoss dying. So try that out imo ^
Would be kind if you don't post here anymore, if you don't have any clue about the topic. Thanks!
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On April 14 2012 09:31 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 08:42 trias_e wrote:
I could have written this myself. I can't stand TvP, and I hate playing it to such an extent that it makes me want to quit the game entirely. It's immensly frustrating losing to turtle protoss over and over again. I've read lastshadow's blog and other guides on TvP, and I've attempted to incorporate it, but the late game micro is just so difficult for me and it seems so incredibly easy for the protoss. Every late game TvP ends with my army going splat basically doing no damage to his. Then why don't you do what EVERY SINGLE TERRAN DOES. 5rax, starport reactor push herpderp win game. Or just get better control. The best part about this push is, you do it while getting an expansion, double engi bay, and w.e else you want. And 80% of the time you just win the game without even having to worry about the late game. And don't say "Oh only works vs noobs". I watch progamers, and just regular ladder terrans do it. And the result is always the same. Protoss dying. So try that out imo ^
What league are you in?
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The lategame power of protoss is balanced out by the early game power of terran. What you have said essentially is the complete opposite for a protoss fighting whatever form of 1-1-1, which still wins about 80% of the games at just about every level.
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I actually just play mech TvP. TT Also Pure Air into bio, but I'm less practiced up with that.
I open with cloak banshee expo into the marine, thor, banshee, raven composition, and stick with that until I get my third. As I take my third I add on factories and add siege tanks and bfh, in a mix that responds to his composition. The raven should let you kill obs.
Also, I surround all my bases in turrets. Really, it makes a huge difference. I make at least 3 sensor towers too, to watch his army movements.
The remainder of the game is dancing around with my army to make sure I'm sieged up well, and doing BFH runbys and drops/banshee harass to keep his army at home or to make him lose econ.
There's also a neat trick when you start getting a ton of minerals where you make like 5 barracks, hotkey them separately, and use them like force fields for your mech army.
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I understand you bro,Anyways to anyone who thought that you can win with mid game push is wrong,I mean his level of opponents is very high (high master on kr server I belive) it's ten time better than master on am or eu.
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EPT
