On November 06 2011 18:39 PH wrote: I don't entirely agree with the OP's post, but I do agree with its sentiment. SC2 is a terrible successor to BW.
I'm always surprised when people don't agree with this statement. It's very hard to find people who will say "BW is great and all, but SC2 is simply better." At least in my experience.
Noone who watches and plays brood war at a decent level will say that SC2 is the better game. Most people are just not good enough to play BW, and don't want to put in the time to learn, therefore they will never know that feeling of actually doing something that takes skill in this incredibly difficult game.
I'm sure your post will get 1 starred by all the SC2 kids, but man, I feel just like you do. I try over and over and over to give SC2 a chance to take BW's place, but it just can't. It's not nostalgia like you said. It's just that amazing of a game, and it's so hard that improving in it is such a great feeling that people who only play SC2 will never understand. I really WANT to like SC2, but it's just no where near amazing as BW. Here's hoping that one day they will fix the game, or that SC3 will be a worthy successor.
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
Ok...if you want BW HD just play SC2BW. Seriously...SC2 is a SEQUEL. That's what it should be.
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
Ok...if you want BW HD just play SC2BW. Seriously...SC2 is a SEQUEL. That's what it should be.
Sc2Bw isn't broodwar it still using the SC2 engine to run on it . Looking at halo aniversary for combat evolved , Now if only I got some technology to run new layer graphics over the game engine and yet having the mechanics of the old . SC2 is a sequel and I have legitimate expectation as a consumer for the game to be as good as it's predecessor and it isn't .
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
Ok...if you want BW HD just play SC2BW. Seriously...SC2 is a SEQUEL. That's what it should be.
Technically, it is a sequel. A lot of people (including me) just think that it is not as good as the first one.
Personally, SC2 is to BW as Matrix Reloaded is to The Matrix.
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
... You have to understand the design decisions between Dota 2 and SC 2 are completely different. One is a sequel, the other is a remake. The only actual similarity is the "2" in the title of these games. Blizzard never lied to you when they said SC2 is a sequel, not a remake of Brood War. If you want to play Brood War, play Brood War. If you want to play Brood War HD, there's the Brood War mod for SC2 for that too.
My metaphor of "back seat driver" refers to your claim that you know better than Blizzard in terms of game design, not in terms of how much you've played the game. Maybe this view is just because you didn't bother to put enough specific examples in your OP. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing specific examples of how you would re-design SC2 and reason through why your changes are better than Blizzard's current implementation.
Making SC2 an exact copy of Brood War would be a terrible financial decision by Blizzard. It's completely unfeasible. I feel Blizzard has done a solid job at both freshening the game for a new generation of gamers to boost sales, and still be mostly successful in making a competitive RTS game. The number of players as well as the numbers of tournaments attest to that fact.
If you look at a lot of the complaints in your thread, they're completely ridiculous. People whipping out their "I played Brood War" card as if it's the only license they need to bash SC2. I've played Brood War since 2001, followed the professional scene since 2003 up until the day SC2 beta came out. I can see how BW and SC2 are both great games. They both ARE great games if you carefully analyze their design. There's no need for this fanatic hatred of SC2.
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
... You have to understand the design decisions between Dota 2 and SC 2 are completely different. One is a sequel, the other is a remake. The only actual similarity is the "2" in the title of these games. Blizzard never lied to you when they said SC2 is a sequel, not a remake of Brood War. If you want to play Brood War, play Brood War. If you want to play Brood War HD, there's the Brood War mod for SC2 for that too.
My metaphor of "back seat driver" refers to your claim that you know better than Blizzard in terms of game design, not in terms of how much you've played the game. Maybe this view is just because you didn't bother to put enough specific examples in your OP. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing specific examples of how you would re-design SC2 and reason through why your changes are better than Blizzard's current implementation.
Making SC2 an exact copy of Brood War would be a terrible financial decision by Blizzard. It's completely unfeasible. I feel Blizzard has done a solid job at both freshening the game for a new generation of gamers to boost sales, and still be mostly successful in making a competitive RTS game. The number of players as well as the numbers of tournaments attest to that fact.
If you look at a lot of the complaints in your thread, they're completely ridiculous. People whipping out their "I played Brood War" card as if it's the only license they need to bash SC2. I've played Brood War since 2001, followed the professional scene since 2003 up until the day SC2 beta came out. I can see how BW and SC2 are both great games. They both ARE great games if you carefully analyze their design. There's no need for this fanatic hatred of SC2.
Have I stated that I claim I am better in game design than Blizzard ? now you are are putting words in to my mouth , If blizzards is already bent on making esports they would have kept the same level of mechanical difficulty in to the game and they failed to do so . When they change the game to be more accessible to casuals the game already isn't starcraft . How successful is this rts you are taking about besides it being great in Non asian Countries , Has sc2 captured many of the hearts of players besides it being it in the u.s.a and other foreign country . Do we have local lan sc2 tourney in korea ? the heart of starcraft ? Do i see my local player sc2 malaysia chobo worship like a god here ? .
Nope sc2 isn't really doing well like what you stated Successful and yet making it competitive . How competitive it is when you can't even run sc2 with basic lan support system .It's a total joke , Initially I do agree with sc2 design their unit was exciting at first but blizzard with their mentality of catering the game for the casual and balancing out for the pro's made the game not in anway predictable as it is in broodwar . Given the halo combat evolved examble , In game design for sc2 i would have done the same thing running a much better high textured edition of bw units over the old bw and yet retain the bw mechanics .
So you claim you are a fan of professional scene from young time huh ? i played the game when it was first released in 1998 and till now I still do it . So what does that mean a thing , It gives me validation that I am familiar with bw concept and design and it also add credibility that I have expectation as a gamer , consumer , fan that the game isn't going the way it is supposed to be . How do you expect pro's to be totally dominating the game when you balanced patch unit every time a single person whines that they can't handle a unit in multiplayer . Did the blizzard who released broodwar did that everytime some body whines over a unit ?
Numbers are a test to the fact ? Just wait till other flashy multiplayer games comes about and people will be talking about that game and sc2 would be nothing but just old news and to tell you one thing good about that broodwar would be still talked about despite it being an old game . You call these criticism fanatics , besides you are just stone walling over the most important aspect of discussion , why does blizzard need to cater to the casual when they are talking about esports .
For example the ak47 in cs 1.6 can kill you from a distance with a double tap and that's imbalance isn't it ? If the current blizzard right now was managing over a cs 2.0 they would have nerf it because casual can't stand the thought of dying from a distance in a matter of a seconds . Same like the example I have given over the reaper it was a good a harassment unit until people started whining about it .
Before all these we are doing for esports sentiments that started from blizzard mouths like these days, Cs 1.6 and broodwar is the fan favourite game for it being in wcg tournament . What's so "esport" when pro's cant even give a feed back to the developer of the game and is asked to play broodwar instead of accepting the evaluation from the pro gamer . How's this bringing any greater development for the game when you have such a attitude to the players who are playing their game .
I can't believe the attitude sc2 fan's are having over their game , accepting what blizzards has to say as final and not challenging them over a simple feature such as Lan system . It's as if they want to believe the esports hype blizzard is about to give them and overlook basics feature that should be available to them .
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
... You have to understand the design decisions between Dota 2 and SC 2 are completely different. One is a sequel, the other is a remake. The only actual similarity is the "2" in the title of these games. Blizzard never lied to you when they said SC2 is a sequel, not a remake of Brood War. If you want to play Brood War, play Brood War. If you want to play Brood War HD, there's the Brood War mod for SC2 for that too.
My metaphor of "back seat driver" refers to your claim that you know better than Blizzard in terms of game design, not in terms of how much you've played the game. Maybe this view is just because you didn't bother to put enough specific examples in your OP. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing specific examples of how you would re-design SC2 and reason through why your changes are better than Blizzard's current implementation.
Making SC2 an exact copy of Brood War would be a terrible financial decision by Blizzard. It's completely unfeasible. I feel Blizzard has done a solid job at both freshening the game for a new generation of gamers to boost sales, and still be mostly successful in making a competitive RTS game. The number of players as well as the numbers of tournaments attest to that fact.
If you look at a lot of the complaints in your thread, they're completely ridiculous. People whipping out their "I played Brood War" card as if it's the only license they need to bash SC2. I've played Brood War since 2001, followed the professional scene since 2003 up until the day SC2 beta came out. I can see how BW and SC2 are both great games. They both ARE great games if you carefully analyze their design. There's no need for this fanatic hatred of SC2.
Have I stated that I claim I am better in game design than Blizzard ? now you are are putting words in to my mouth , If blizzards is already bent on making esports they would have kept the same level of mechanical difficulty in to the game and they failed to do so . When they change the game to be more accessible to casuals the game already isn't starcraft . How successful is this rts you are taking about besides it being great in Non asian Countries , Has sc2 captured many of the hearts of players besides it being it in the u.s.a and other foreign country . Do we have local lan sc2 tourney in korea ? the heart of starcraft ? Do i see my local player sc2 malaysia chobo worship like a god here ? .
Nope sc2 isn't really doing well like what you stated Successful and yet making it competitive . How competitive it is when you can't even run sc2 with basic lan support system .It's a total joke , Initially I do agree with sc2 design their unit was exciting at first but blizzard with their mentality of catering the game for the casual and balancing out for the pro's made the game not in anway predictable as it is in broodwar . Given the halo combat evolved examble , In game design for sc2 i would have done the same thing running a much better high textured edition of bw units over the old bw and yet retain the bw mechanics .
So you claim you are a fan of professional scene from young time huh ? i played the game when it was first released in 1998 and till now I still do it . So what does that mean a thing , It gives me validation that I am familiar with bw concept and design and it also add credibility that I have expectation as a gamer , consumer , fan that the game isn't going the way it is supposed to be . How do you expect pro's to be totally dominating the game when you balanced patch unit every time a single person whines that they can't handle a unit in multiplayer . Did the blizzard who released broodwar did that everytime some body whines over a unit ?
Numbers are a test to the fact ? Just wait till other flashy multiplayer games comes about and people will be talking about that game and sc2 would be nothing but just old news and to tell you one thing good about that broodwar would be still talked about despite it being an old game . You call these criticism fanatics , besides you are just stone walling over the most important aspect of discussion , why does blizzard need to cater to the casual when they are talking about esports .
For example the ak47 in cs 1.6 can kill you from a distance with a double tap and that's imbalance isn't it ? If the current blizzard right now was managing over a cs 2.0 they would have nerf it because casual can't stand the thought of dying from a distance in a matter of a seconds . Same like the example I have given over the reaper it was a good a harassment unit until people started whining about it .
Before all these we are doing for esports sentiments that started from blizzard mouths like these days, Cs 1.6 and broodwar is the fan favourite game for it being in wcg tournament . What's so "esport" when pro's cant even give a feed back to the developer of the game and is asked to play broodwar instead of accepting the evaluation from the pro gamer . How's this bringing any greater development for the game when you have such a attitude to the players who are playing their game .
I can't believe the attitude sc2 fan's are having over their game , accepting what blizzards has to say as final and not challenging them over a simple feature such as Lan system . It's as if they want to believe the esports hype blizzard is about to give them and overlook basics feature that should be available to them .
You claim that I'm putting words in your mouth by saying you think you know better than Blizzard... and the rest of your post goes on about how terrible Blizzard is and what you think they should be doing. Something is amiss here.
Let's go over everything slowly. First, you seem to be obsessed over equating LAN support with the success of a game as an e-sport. Where is the proof that there's a direct linear correlation between these two things? It's true that the lack of LAN support means everyone has to play at a higher latency and there's the occasional issue with Battle.Net, but have you seen the amount of tournaments going on in the past year? There are a shitload of tournaments going on. Maybe it isn't as big in Malaysia because less people there can afford a good enough computer to run the game. I don't know. But millions of dollars in prize money have been given out in tournaments, and I'd say that's fairly successful.
Whether or not that success will carry through in the future remains to be seen, but the same thing can be said about Brood War. When you were watching BoxeR competing dressed in some space marine outfit back in 2001 were you 100% sure that the game would continue to be a massive e-sport in 2008? 2009? Brood War always had a small dedicated foreign fan base, but it's not nearly as large as you're making it out to be. You're arguing from hindsight like you saw everything coming from a million miles away.
Second, I don't see exactly what your complaint about balance and patching is with SC2. Starcraft 1 had over a decade to develop its gameplay into what it is today. But it also had a much slower start. Lost Temple was played for several years as the go-to map before people realized how retarded the cliffs were. Is that a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion? In Starcraft 2 sure Blizzard is patching rapidly, but the amount of people playing the game and the knowledge gathered from Brood War makes the metagame develop much faster in Starcraft 2. Do we really need to see blue flame hellions with 10 bonus to light for two years just to make absolutely sure it wasn't extremely overpowered? You're just taking an example out of its context and placing it into an irrelevant historical time frame. Blizzard's patches have for the most part kept the game pretty balanced at the highest levels, and your complaint is that they should instead ignore everyone to pursue some vague notion of "higher balance" by withholding their patching. Doesn't work that way.
And you calling Brood War's development "predictable" is just LOL, are you sure you've followed the scene at all? Because if it was so predictable then I have no idea why it took all the way until Bisu to invent the Bisu build, or why people were still changing the way the game was played a decade after. Brood War was great because it was so unpredictably balanced, not because everyone saw everything coming from miles away.
Finally, I listed my Brood War credentials just because if I don't I'll just be automatically labelled as "one of those SC2 fans" since apparently rational thinking goes out the window when the defense of Brood War is required. I don't see why you should think you know better than I do just because you've been playing the game longer, since from your arguments it's clear you haven't thought very deeply about Starcraft 2 or how games are designed in general at all. Why don't you tell me about what specifically is wrong with Starcraft 2's design instead of making the same sweeping generalizations about the game that people have been making since pre-Beta?
Starcraft 2 isn't as mechanically intensive as Brood War? Fine. But still no Progamer has ever hit the APM limit in Starcraft 2. There's always room for improvement, faster is still better. What more do you need than that? Is a theoretical APM max of 2 million really better than a theoretical APM max of 1 million? Starcraft 2 has shown that it's still possible to have an APM intensive game without having to resort to making the game laborious to play on purpose. If you don't see that as a game design improvement, I don't know what to tell you.
Go play Brood War or SC2BW mod if SC2 is really that terrible for you, but if you're going to write rants about things you don't fully understand someone's going to call you out.
It is weird that this very different game is basically sucking the life out of an old one though, just because they share a name.
The money is in SC2 nowadays because that's where Blizzard [and soon, a lot of other sponsors] started pumping money (and for good reason--you want to sell a new product, one that's shinier, more casual-friendly, etc.) And because the money is in SC2, the best players switched to SC2--also for good reason: if you want to be a professional game-player, you sure as hell need to make yourself a living. Especially foreigners: they had no chance at BW, so there was little money to be made. The easier SC2 mechanics have leveled the field somewhat, so foreigners have a chance again (for now?), and they flocked to SC2 in droves to take advantage of this chance. The lower-tier [lower-salary / lower-skill / old] Koreans, on the other hand, were also happy to move on to a game that, being new and less mechanically demanding, gave them a chance at fame, glory, and of course prize money. The more players switch, the higher the skill level gets, and the more sponsors want in. The more sponsors, the more prize money, and the more players start playing; it's a self-reinforcing cycle-- and it's killing BW (which is why BW fans are so angry.)
Perhaps SC2 will one day hit a skill limit [for some ethereal definition thereof] similar to that of BW, which seems unlikely as of now, precisely because Blizzard wanted the game to be more casual-friendly. It's more likely that SC2 will keep growing, at least for a while, due to the funding, the new expansion, and the masses looking for a new, shiny, fairly interesting, and comparatively competitive game. BW, on the other hand, will probably flounder and gasp for breath... until, perhaps, one day SC2 somehow falls out of fashion (and isn't replaced with a newer, shinier game...), and players [who by then will be old, I suppose, making this a load of pointless speculation/false hope] flock back to their original true love... a true turn of the tables. Heh, who am I kidding?
Anyway, the fact stands that SC2 is draining BW, and that there are plenty of insensitive SC2 fans who drop in all the time just to bash BW. (Of course, there are those who play/have played/appreciate both; it seems that the longer such a player/fan has been playing/following BW though, the more they lean toward BW [with certain exceptions, though it's possible that these guys actually like the money and the fame they can earn from their new game, as opposed to the game itself?]. Not too surprising.) BW fans, on the other hand, remain elitist (as BW fans always have toward other 'inferior' games), alienating the poor new SC2 fans who've come to appreciate their shinier, more accessible game. And so we fight, on and on, day after day... it gets tiring after a while, but who can just sit there and watch others bash what they hold dear?
BW players can't understand why SC2 players would play such an unrefined game; SC2 players can't understand why BW players would play such an unrefined game. In a way, they're both right. But to those who favor SC2: I understand you're defending your game, but remember that you're adding insult to injury, and BW fans will inevitably get ornery... and it will get ugly.
My problem with this situation isn't that SC2 isn't the same game as BW. It isn't. But that fact didn't stop the majority of the foreign community from dropping BW as soon as it came out and playing SC2 exclusively just because it shares the name. BW became an eSport because of its own brilliance; SC2 is just piggybacking on the name and the millions of dollars Blizzard is pumping into it to pidgeon-hole it into BW's role. I understand why top foreign names all left BW: The money for foreigners and Korean B-teamers is in SC2 right now. It's just sad because I would be so sad if SC2 turns out to be no more than a short-lived fad but still manages to take BW down with its demise.
I can see why you have the pen avatar next to your name, it is well earned :O
I personally wouldn't mind if there was a divide between SC1 and SC2 players the way there was a divide between BW and WC3, but it seems that isn't happening.
If/when Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong start playing SC2, that will be when the real potential of SC2 will begin to unlock, when we'll get to see if the cake really is a lie.
Also it would be nice if BW purists could articulate themselves in a clearer, better thought out manner. Elitism comes across best when it's intelligently argued as opposed to when it's flung at you by an angry mob.
This is one of the worst SC2 bashing threads I've seen, and they're all terrible to begin with. A bunch of people vaguely complaining about SC2 with zero idea of how they actually want SC2 to be like. Back seat drivers who've never driven a car before.
Can't stand the fact that every potential unit that has been used has been patched and suck the life force out of it and to boldly claim that I have never given the game a try and even use the example of back seat passenger example to reinforced your statement is pretty a weak example . If you take a look in to my thoughts of how sc2 would be , you will be definitely looking at broodwar hd like what valve did to dota 2 . Game mechanics are the same except maybe a graphical facelift .Well however I am not the developer of sc2 . So my ideas will never get through.
... You have to understand the design decisions between Dota 2 and SC 2 are completely different. One is a sequel, the other is a remake. The only actual similarity is the "2" in the title of these games. Blizzard never lied to you when they said SC2 is a sequel, not a remake of Brood War. If you want to play Brood War, play Brood War. If you want to play Brood War HD, there's the Brood War mod for SC2 for that too.
My metaphor of "back seat driver" refers to your claim that you know better than Blizzard in terms of game design, not in terms of how much you've played the game. Maybe this view is just because you didn't bother to put enough specific examples in your OP. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing specific examples of how you would re-design SC2 and reason through why your changes are better than Blizzard's current implementation.
Making SC2 an exact copy of Brood War would be a terrible financial decision by Blizzard. It's completely unfeasible. I feel Blizzard has done a solid job at both freshening the game for a new generation of gamers to boost sales, and still be mostly successful in making a competitive RTS game. The number of players as well as the numbers of tournaments attest to that fact.
If you look at a lot of the complaints in your thread, they're completely ridiculous. People whipping out their "I played Brood War" card as if it's the only license they need to bash SC2. I've played Brood War since 2001, followed the professional scene since 2003 up until the day SC2 beta came out. I can see how BW and SC2 are both great games. They both ARE great games if you carefully analyze their design. There's no need for this fanatic hatred of SC2.
Have I stated that I claim I am better in game design than Blizzard ? now you are are putting words in to my mouth , If blizzards is already bent on making esports they would have kept the same level of mechanical difficulty in to the game and they failed to do so . When they change the game to be more accessible to casuals the game already isn't starcraft . How successful is this rts you are taking about besides it being great in Non asian Countries , Has sc2 captured many of the hearts of players besides it being it in the u.s.a and other foreign country . Do we have local lan sc2 tourney in korea ? the heart of starcraft ? Do i see my local player sc2 malaysia chobo worship like a god here ? .
Nope sc2 isn't really doing well like what you stated Successful and yet making it competitive . How competitive it is when you can't even run sc2 with basic lan support system .It's a total joke , Initially I do agree with sc2 design their unit was exciting at first but blizzard with their mentality of catering the game for the casual and balancing out for the pro's made the game not in anway predictable as it is in broodwar . Given the halo combat evolved examble , In game design for sc2 i would have done the same thing running a much better high textured edition of bw units over the old bw and yet retain the bw mechanics .
So you claim you are a fan of professional scene from young time huh ? i played the game when it was first released in 1998 and till now I still do it . So what does that mean a thing , It gives me validation that I am familiar with bw concept and design and it also add credibility that I have expectation as a gamer , consumer , fan that the game isn't going the way it is supposed to be . How do you expect pro's to be totally dominating the game when you balanced patch unit every time a single person whines that they can't handle a unit in multiplayer . Did the blizzard who released broodwar did that everytime some body whines over a unit ?
Numbers are a test to the fact ? Just wait till other flashy multiplayer games comes about and people will be talking about that game and sc2 would be nothing but just old news and to tell you one thing good about that broodwar would be still talked about despite it being an old game . You call these criticism fanatics , besides you are just stone walling over the most important aspect of discussion , why does blizzard need to cater to the casual when they are talking about esports .
For example the ak47 in cs 1.6 can kill you from a distance with a double tap and that's imbalance isn't it ? If the current blizzard right now was managing over a cs 2.0 they would have nerf it because casual can't stand the thought of dying from a distance in a matter of a seconds . Same like the example I have given over the reaper it was a good a harassment unit until people started whining about it .
Before all these we are doing for esports sentiments that started from blizzard mouths like these days, Cs 1.6 and broodwar is the fan favourite game for it being in wcg tournament . What's so "esport" when pro's cant even give a feed back to the developer of the game and is asked to play broodwar instead of accepting the evaluation from the pro gamer . How's this bringing any greater development for the game when you have such a attitude to the players who are playing their game .
I can't believe the attitude sc2 fan's are having over their game , accepting what blizzards has to say as final and not challenging them over a simple feature such as Lan system . It's as if they want to believe the esports hype blizzard is about to give them and overlook basics feature that should be available to them .
You claim that I'm putting words in your mouth by saying you think you know better than Blizzard... and the rest of your post goes on about how terrible Blizzard is and what you think they should be doing. Something is amiss here.
Let's go over everything slowly. First, you seem to be obsessed over equating LAN support with the success of a game as an e-sport. Where is the proof that there's a direct linear correlation between these two things? It's true that the lack of LAN support means everyone has to play at a higher latency and there's the occasional issue with Battle.Net, but have you seen the amount of tournaments going on in the past year? There are a shitload of tournaments going on. Maybe it isn't as big in Malaysia because less people there can afford a good enough computer to run the game. I don't know. But millions of dollars in prize money have been given out in tournaments, and I'd say that's fairly successful.
Whether or not that success will carry through in the future remains to be seen, but the same thing can be said about Brood War. When you were watching BoxeR competing dressed in some space marine outfit back in 2001 were you 100% sure that the game would continue to be a massive e-sport in 2008? 2009? Brood War always had a small dedicated foreign fan base, but it's not nearly as large as you're making it out to be. You're arguing from hindsight like you saw everything coming from a million miles away.
Second, I don't see exactly what your complaint about balance and patching is with SC2. Starcraft 1 had over a decade to develop its gameplay into what it is today. But it also had a much slower start. Lost Temple was played for several years as the go-to map before people realized how retarded the cliffs were. Is that a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion? In Starcraft 2 sure Blizzard is patching rapidly, but the amount of people playing the game and the knowledge gathered from Brood War makes the metagame develop much faster in Starcraft 2. Do we really need to see blue flame hellions with 10 bonus to light for two years just to make absolutely sure it wasn't extremely overpowered? You're just taking an example out of its context and placing it into an irrelevant historical time frame. Blizzard's patches have for the most part kept the game pretty balanced at the highest levels, and your complaint is that they should instead ignore everyone to pursue some vague notion of "higher balance" by withholding their patching. Doesn't work that way.
And you calling Brood War's development "predictable" is just LOL, are you sure you've followed the scene at all? Because if it was so predictable then I have no idea why it took all the way until Bisu to invent the Bisu build, or why people were still changing the way the game was played a decade after. Brood War was great because it was so unpredictably balanced, not because everyone saw everything coming from miles away.
Finally, I listed my Brood War credentials just because if I don't I'll just be automatically labelled as "one of those SC2 fans" since apparently rational thinking goes out the window when the defense of Brood War is required. I don't see why you should think you know better than I do just because you've been playing the game longer, since from your arguments it's clear you haven't thought very deeply about Starcraft 2 or how games are designed in general at all. Why don't you tell me about what specifically is wrong with Starcraft 2's design instead of making the same sweeping generalizations about the game that people have been making since pre-Beta?
Starcraft 2 isn't as mechanically intensive as Brood War? Fine. But still no Progamer has ever hit the APM limit in Starcraft 2. There's always room for improvement, faster is still better. What more do you need than that? Is a theoretical APM max of 2 million really better than a theoretical APM max of 1 million? Starcraft 2 has shown that it's still possible to have an APM intensive game without having to resort to making the game laborious to play on purpose. If you don't see that as a game design improvement, I don't know what to tell you.
Go play Brood War or SC2BW mod if SC2 is really that terrible for you, but if you're going to write rants about things you don't fully understand someone's going to call you out.
If broodwar development isn't predictable like you said would bw professional players are able to work with strategies and timing to counter that certain build that is being used largely ? Adding medics to complement marines has change the change in so many ways that you can never think off who knew we could do drops and win soley with mnm ? You ? Nope it's thanks to the players who made the game today not the DEVELOPER . That''s one thing you could never understand broodwar has been shaped and changed by it's players . Using maps to balance makes the game much more balance .
If you think about it has bw been affected like sc2 , Nerf Reaper , Okay terran players do not have the necessity to make reapers any more, So that's fine , Strike one , Strike two , Blue hellion upgrade does huge amount of damage if drop behind enemy natural line , okay Nerf . See where the development is going ? Any potential units doesn't even get the chance to be used for harassed to get any advantage . What if the developer were to follow the foot steps the current blizzard is doing , Okay vultures are doing so much damage to workers at natural , nerf it , Siege tanks do too much splash damage nerf it , MNM does too much damage with a single drop nerf it .
What will happen to broodwar than ? Sc2 in my opinion it's totally unpredictable sure they have great unit design interesting concepts but it all was never used to it's maximum potential after all Hellions with blue flame upgrades does too much damage LOL and it must be nerf for the greater name of ESPORTS . Pretty catchy indeed.
So how does that help the game develop any further when you take out everything that makes the unit special and what's left with the unit ? Probably just there in the unit counter so you can make the game play the standard . Mass units make it into ball and 1a2a pray that your unit wins . I am so happy that the blizzard that made the game starcraft 1 and bw did not have that kind of mentality it has right now . Sure sc 2 is awesome in every way because I have MBS and smartcasting to save the day . However that doesn't change the fact sc2 will never be able to differentiate the pro's and casual like it did in broodwar and that's my take on it .
For your information BISU Didn't invent the bisu build he PERFECTED it LOL , talk about being a BW veteran from the way you speak , you seem to just spew anything you had in your thoughts right in to your comments . In the reign of savior in his old days protoss didn't stand a change against the 3 hatch build if they were to use their standard 1 base play which gets shut down . Bisu with his efficient multi tasking were able to optimised the protoss build that he has taken with the constant use of corsairs/ dt's harassment made the huge game changes .
Of course there is no apm limit in sc2 after all , what's so special about the game when you have MBS ,to do all the job where should I spend my apm than ? Selecting my buildings individually like i did in broodwar ?. Than again you will never understand how significant is the mechanical barrier that makes bw something special , it requires whole lot of apm to do everything the broodwar pro's is able to do now days .
If games back than didn't have lan incorporated in to their game play would it have reach the number of fans it did now days , ? Would pc bangs in korea exploded if not for starcraft support for lan plays ? Would cs 1.6 be the most played games in the cyber cafe if it is not for it's local area network support . Of course these are basics necessity for any game to be successful , Why do I need to log on to internet when I can just hook up a few cables with my friends computer and we already good to go ?
Malaysia has much more interest in dota scene rather than sc2 , just take a look at the cyber cafe's and despite the pc's having sc2 Support included with a beastly comp . You will hear them screaming over their friends over heroes in dota rather than sc2 . Yeah sc2 is pretty big in u.s.a , it still hasn't captured the asian market not a single bit .
Your English seems to be slowly dissolving into incoherence D:
Consider that LAN support provides more incentive for piracy. It's very possible (note the understatement) that many copies of Brood War and WC3 in Malaysia are simply pirated copies of the game. Popularity isn't indicative of sales. How does it help Blizzard of their games are popular but they're making $0 from the popularity? It's not something a company can support.
I'm trying to parse out the rest of your arguments but my brain is starting to melt, so I'll just stop here. You shouldn't take my arguments as being anti-Brood War. Brood War is the definitive competitive RTS game, I won't contest that. I hope you continue to enjoy it for many years to come.
But you clearly don't understand Starcraft 2 enough to make all the claims you're making. In its current state in Wings of Liberty, it is a solid competitive game. There is enough depth in the game that 13 years of Brood War experience (combined with the experience of RTS gamers coming in from WC3, Dawn of War, Supreme Commander) and thousands of professional gamers haven't solved the game yet, and that says something. Heart of the Swarm worries a lot of SC2 fans, although that's just because we're also a passionate bunch who want the best for the future of competitive RTS.
On November 07 2011 18:57 Newbistic wrote: Your English seems to be slowly dissolving into incoherence D:
Consider that LAN support provides more incentive for piracy. It's very possible (note the understatement) that many copies of Brood War and WC3 in Malaysia are simply pirated copies of the game. Popularity isn't indicative of sales. How does it help Blizzard of their games are popular but they're making $0 from the popularity? It's not something a company can support.
I'm trying to parse out the rest of your arguments but my brain is starting to melt, so I'll just stop here. You shouldn't take my arguments as being anti-Brood War. Brood War is the definitive competitive RTS game, I won't contest that. I hope you continue to enjoy it for many years to come.
But you clearly don't understand Starcraft 2 enough to make all the claims you're making. In its current state in Wings of Liberty, it is a solid competitive game. There is enough depth in the game that 13 years of Brood War experience (combined with the experience of RTS gamers coming in from WC3, Dawn of War, Supreme Commander) and thousands of professional gamers haven't solved the game yet, and that says something. Heart of the Swarm worries a lot of SC2 fans, although that's just because we're also a passionate bunch who want the best for the future of competitive RTS.
That is all.
D: It doesn't change the fact the way things are patching units that are imbalance and not allowing players to incorporate them in to their strategies and using it to it's full potential makes the game a down graded version of broodwar .
EPT
