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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Ahhhhhh!! What the hell is this!??!
This is my attempt at generating a combined Korea+International player ranking. The ranking is based off of TLPD and I will tell you you method I've used shortly. At the moment, I am still fine tuning the ranking formula so this is a beta ranking. Future rankings may use a different formula! Moreover, this is also to gauge interest in such a monthly ranking.
So, what formula did you use?
max{Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195, Average(Kor Elo, Int Elo)} where the Elos are subject to inactivity penalties.
Why 195?
I took the average of the difference between the Elos of the players listed in both databases. The result was 195. I haven't decided the frequency for which this value will be updated.
Doesn't averaging Korean/International Elo give players in two databases an advantage?
Yes, but I think that's justified. If you are competing in both databases it means you are already amongst the elite of the elite (else travel expenses simply cannot be justified). Further, there is an additional stress of long plane flights to deal with and the fact that that compromises practices time. Players willing to compete in both should be rewarded for that, imo.
Without further delay, here is the rank for September:
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png) : 22 (7+7+1+4+3)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png) : 12 (1+1+4+3+3)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png) : 16 (2+2+5+3+4)
Rank 1-10: "The Heavyweights"
In a surprise twist of events, Bomber ends up taking the #1 spot from Nestea. This is a result of his incredibly strong Korean score and international score. Nestea on the other hand has his points only coming from the Korean score, so I suppose you could say he is at a disadvantage in that regard. Nevertheless, after winning Raleigh, Bomber does look pretty damn strong at the moment. I'm sure a lot of people would pay a lot of money to see Bomber vs Nestea too! MC also recovers a lot of ground thanks to his strong position in the international database, enough to get him on par with Nestea. MC is also the lone Protoss in the Top 10 this month. MVP is set to climb as many people expect him to take out this seasons GSL championship, so keep a look out for him in the next ranking. DongRaeGu finishes up 5th after a strong finish at Raleigh and outstanding performances in GTSL.
EG makes its presence felt in the top 10 with Puma representing them very strongly. TheStC is the only non-Code S player in the Top 10 - we all know he is a strong Terran, but now that his military service is over we are all waiting for him to break into Code A and start tearing things up. MarineKing over Ganzi may look a bit strange, but keep in mind that MarineKing is on the way down while Ganzi is on the way up and that their series was incredibly close. Ganzi will overtake MKP next month assuming he keeps up his strong performances.
Rank 11-20: "The Dangermen"
There aren't too many surprises in this range. Coca bursts into the ranking after an incredibly strong run at Raleigh (which made Ares[effort] a very happy man). And despite struggling at MLG, Nada still retains a strong position in the ranking - although he's going to have to step it up if he wants to stay there. Ryung and TOP have risen into the high ranks off of their solid GSL runs this season (TOP's is still going though!) and a few more runs like this and they'll be breaking into the top 10 in no time. Puzzle makes a strong finish thanks to good runs in the Korean weeklies (in addition to his Top 16 GSL finish). Puzzle, as a result, is the second highest ranked Protoss.
Rank 21-30: "Enter the World"
Foreigners sighted! In fact, 5/10 of these players are non-Korean. Stephano is the first non-Korean on the ranking at #22 after winning the MSI Millennium Cup (over Kas) and placing third in his group at IEM in close series (against the likes of Puma). Taeja makes a disappointing finish at #21 after his collapse in the Code A semifinal. July is also on the rise again and ends the month at #25 - should he keep going in Code S - thats sure to rise. Huk, Nerchio and White-Ra all tie this month for the 28th spot. A somewhat disappointing result for Huk who has been terribly overworked this month, here's hoping he gets a break and is allowed to mass practice once again.
Rank 31-40: "The Outsiders"
More non-Koreans! qxc manages a strong finish, still somewhat carried by his amazing all kill. Thorzain is also climbing the ranks and should he do well in Code A next season chances are he'll crack the Top 30. Mana has dipped down from earlier this month - after his 3rd place at IEM, an early exit in the MSI Millennium tournament cost him his #1 non-Korean spot. Moon also sneaks his head into the top 40, despite having played very little in August.
Rank 41-50: "Just Hanging in There"
Hero and Tandongho both barely manage to make it in this month. Not surprising, neither had made much of an impact on the Korean scene just yet and are relying on their international scores to boost them into the rankings (unlike Puma). Obviously both of these players are very talented, and should continue to rise up. Nothing too surprising going on here, Curious hasn't really lived up to his potential yet and so is understandably low, and Byun has had a mini-collapse after his 0-3 against Losira last season.
Shoutout to Naniwa who hasn't played enough games in the Korean database to be registered yet! (and as a result, missed out on placing).
That's it! Please leave your feedback, because I'd really like to get this as refined as possible. I hope you enjoyed it!
Plexa
 
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I keep seeing people rating stephano so highly. Is he really that good? I thought he was very inconsistent.
Also, how is there no naniwa.
okok I get it you just used point systems that already exist but still I think it's wrong with no naniwa lol
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
His ZvT is mindblowing. ZvP/ZvZ very good (not the best outside of Korea though).
@Nani: he is at an awkward time where he isn't active enough in the foreign scene to place strongly in that, and hasn't played enough games in Korea to be registered in that DB. I still estimated a Korean rank of 1900 for him and he still missed out. Give it time, he'll climb in the rankings eventually!
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3030 Posts
Stephano being top foreigner is pretty surprising, I thought it would be someone else.
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Holy shit thats a lot of terran  (14 out of top 20)
Nice work Mr Waffleman. I really hope people appreciate the amount of work that goes into something like this.
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Katowice25012 Posts
lol Terran
This is a neat way to look at things I think it will have a lot of value going forward
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Nice ranking. More accurate than Khaldor's IMO. Surprised to see Younghwa and QXC up there though.
Moreover, this is also to gauge interest in such a monthly ranking.
Put me down for extremely high interest.
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How official do games have to be in order to count for the ELO? Because I could imagine that QXC has a monstrous Korean ELO as a result of his all-kill.
And how do you add in the time decay? Especially with the volatility of the scene right now, I would be bold enough to say that any result that happened before say, April is completely irrelevant today. I'd even say anything before June is useless, but then you have maybe too small a sample size.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2011 15:14 Emporio wrote:
How official do games have to be in order to count for the ELO? Because I could imagine that QXC has a monstrous Korean ELO as a result of his all-kill.
And how do you add in the time decay? Especially with the volatility of the scene right now, I would be bold enough to say that any result that happened before say, April is completely irrelevant today. I'd even say anything before June is useless, but then you have maybe too small a sample size.
Ah I forgot to state this. My time decay is pretty bad. Seeing as we're not awarding points per tournament (ala Kespa) we can't include a decay on points won in a straight forward way. ELO rankings rely on activity for them to be accurate. So I decided to go -50 points for every month that no games have been played. After 3 months you are removed from the database. That means if you haven't played since May, you didn't make the list. If you last games were in June, -150 points from that.
With regard to the first part of your question, that's best directed towards the TLPD guys 
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Very nice. I'm not really too surprised at the placements personally, since it's results based, and Stephano has topped the International ELO for a bit. Nani's not really had the same mass output.
People should notice that (obviously) ELO isn't exactly the most accurate depiction of skill, but more-so performance... Especially when mashed together between two environments, even though it was compensated for it's still a bit awkward.
edit: In terms of a monthly ranking, I think it'd take some serious number-crunching to come up with an acceptable formula for this, if the plan is to rank upon a formula alone.
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Very interesting. Some would say that this domination of Koreans is terrible, but I personally love it.
My only dislike is the fact that Foreigner team-organizations go to swipe these players up, leaving less room for American players to strive or get a chance to be on a team, diminishing the growth of more foreigner players to get into the scene.
The bigger the hurdle, the more we need to lift the knees and jump properly. Will be anxious to go back to this list many months from now.
For Plexa: Dear diary...
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Great job on this. Thanks for putting it together, I love ranking lists!
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I think it's rather hard to justify a common Elo (btw why does everyone capitalize all the letters) ranking for foreigners+ koreans, the way they compete is very different to the way foreigner compete, and not just the skill difference, the frequency and the format too, but some of the Koreans compete in foreign tournaments very frequently too, i think it's really bogus, and many Koreans could have the benefit of the doubt to do equally well at MLG or w/e, but they arent given the chance, or the chance to qualify for it.
And if Hero Puma and some others will compete in NASL while most of the koreans dont, that would give them an advantage.
That being said, it's a nice topic, glad you're active
oh, and no typos, that's strange, are you really Plexa?+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 01 2011 15:12 red4ce wrote:
Nice ranking. More accurate than Khaldor's IMO. Surprised to see Younghwa and QXC up there though.
Technically, both suffer from inaccuracy due to there being so few games between Koreans and Foreigners. Just because this list matches up more closely with what most people assume are the top players, doesn't mean it is accurate. For example, White-Ra can probably take games off of anyone, but how high is he really relative to the Korean scene? It is impossible to judge since White-Ra isn't in the GSL and only 3 or 4 Koreans enter European tournaments at the most (with MC, Ace, and Moon being the guys that show up the most often in the last few months). White-Ra may be higher or lower, and that goes for all the Foreigners.
I like this, and I think it will only get better with time as more Koreans and Foreigners play each other (the same way Khaldor's will get better with time), but at the moment it should be obviously taken with a grain of salt.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2011 15:20 Mikilatov wrote:
Very nice. I'm not really too surprised at the placements personally, since it's results based, and Stephano has topped the International ELO for a bit. Nani's not really had the same mass output.
People should notice that (obviously) ELO isn't exactly the most accurate depiction of skill, but more-so performance... Especially when mashed together between two environments, even though it was compensated for it's still a bit awkward.
edit: In terms of a monthly ranking, I think it'd take some serious number-crunching to come up with an acceptable formula for this, if the plan is to rank upon a formula alone. I mean, the only alternative is to do some kind of points system per tournament... thats a far larger undertaking since there are a lot of tournaments! I'm happy to hear any advice for the formulas.
On September 01 2011 15:33 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 15:12 red4ce wrote:
Nice ranking. More accurate than Khaldor's IMO. Surprised to see Younghwa and QXC up there though.
Technically, both suffer from inaccuracy due to there being so few games between Koreans and Foreigners. Just because this list matches up more closely with what most people assume are the top players, doesn't mean it is accurate. For example, White-Ra can probably take games off of anyone, but how high is he really relative to the Korean scene? It is impossible to judge since White-Ra isn't in the GSL and only 3 or 4 Koreans enter European tournaments at the most (with MC, Ace, and Moon being the guys that show up the most often in the last few months). White-Ra may be higher or lower, and that goes for all the Foreigners. I like this, and I think it will only get better with time as more Koreans and Foreigners play each other (the same way Khaldor's will get better with time), but at the moment it should be obviously taken with a grain of salt. Agreed, the biggest difficulty is mashing the two databases together and getting an accurate entry point. Is Stephano really the #22 player in the world? I don't know! He could be! But he could also be much higher, or lower, but we just haven't seen him compete in a korean environment to be able to judge.
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Quite interesting to see the ranking (skill?) disparity in the top Protoss and Zergs. Top Terrans on the other hand it is hard to tell, as there are just so many of them.
MC >>>>>>> Puzzle >>>>>>>>>> Every other toss
Nestea >> DRG >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every other zerg
I feel these ranks match up quite well with my perception of who the "masters" of their race are. NesTea and DRG have always stood head and shoulders above any other Zerg in my opinion. While MC has always been "the one" in terms of Protoss domination. Puzzle is definitely well recognized as an amazingly scary Protoss but has always to me seemed at least a level below that of MC.
A little surprising to see Stephano #1 on the international scene and Naniwa completely missing. I always knew Stephano was good but not having seen too many of his games he just always seemed mid-tier. Can't argue with results though, he's done well and I think I will need to check out more of his games!
I think where the international players have been placed feels accurate, well done.
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Dem Terran! Great work, I'd read these monthly np
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Does Naniwa's relatively bad record in GSL and GSTL lower his ELO significantly?
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This needs to be featured! Good work!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2011 15:37 Emporio wrote:
Does Naniwa's relatively bad record in GSL and GSTL lower his ELO significantly?
It doesn't. He hasn't played enough for the elo to be registered yet.
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TheSTC most overrated player ever?
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Currently the formula used for the full ELO calculations is:
max{Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195, Average(Kor Elo, Int Elo)}
But I think that for the sake of consistency the formula should be altered to:
max{Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195, Average(Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195)}
This is so that when averaged, the international ELO isn't artificially inflated.
EDIT: Typo
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I like it Every month please please!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Mmmmm maybe that would be better. Although that does mean thorzain and qxc will be out and huk will drop significantly (as will MC)
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3030 Posts
If there were a semi-annual tournament where most if not all players could participate, it would be easier to set rankings. At the moment we have MLG, where Koreans are limited, and Dreamhack. Foreigners don't get much of a chance at participating in GSL. I might have missed one more big tournament where people around the world are able to participate. An upcoming one would be WCG but that's still a while off into the future.
I agree with most of the players listed in the top 30. Good job on the write, forgot to mention that earlier
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Plexa u r a very smart gentleman I enjoy ur posts.
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I feel like small cups/weekly tournaments in each region really inflate Elo for some players with fewer live event results, but I guess it can't be helped.
Oh, another thought: from month to month, some Koreans in the international TLPD will sit at a high Elo simply because they haven't participated in any competitions. Really, the same goes for any player. I think for the long term, a decay system like the KeSPA ranking uses might be a good idea.
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I realise this is a rather arbitary system, but I think it actually worked out pretty well. Foreigners start coming in at about the place you would expect them to be, and there's noone who seems incredibly out of place.
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On September 01 2011 14:57 Plexa wrote:
Moreover, this is also to gauge interest in such a monthly ranking.
I'd love to have a monthly textual ranking which takes into account not only results and stats, but actual gameplay quality and skill. It'd reflect the author's subjective views on players' scariness and power. Like a "Power Rank" if you will. + Show Spoiler +WHY IS THERE NO SC2 POWER RANK?
That said, this ranking looks like a surprisingly accurate representation of who the best players are. This is interesting to me because losing in the first round of a tournament doesn't cost more ELO points than losing in the finals.
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On September 01 2011 15:14 Emporio wrote:
How official do games have to be in order to count for the ELO? Because I could imagine that QXC has a monstrous Korean ELO as a result of his all-kill.
Do you even know how ELO works? Beating a bunch of scrubs (and MVP around the nadir of his ELO), and compiling an 8-10 record overall doesn't work out to a 'monstrous Korean ELO'. In fact his ELO is below 2000, i.e., lower than it was after his first game played.
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I'd rather see a SC2 Power Rank ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2011 18:11 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 14:57 Plexa wrote:
Moreover, this is also to gauge interest in such a monthly ranking. I'd love to have a monthly textual ranking which takes into account not only results and stats, but actual gameplay quality and skill. It'd reflect the author's subjective views on players' scariness and power. Like a "Power Rank" if you will. + Show Spoiler +WHY IS THERE NO SC2 POWER RANK? That said, this ranking looks like a surprisingly accurate representation of who the best players are. This is interesting to me because losing in the first round of a tournament doesn't cost more ELO points than losing in the finals. Theres no SC2 powerrank because the SC2 scene isn't developed enough yet.
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since you're using a max formula it would be interesting to see for the players which of the 3 arguments is responsible for their score. Apparently the highest international elo's are higher then the korean elo as is reflected in bomber being on top, knowing stuff like this can put the list into perspective.
Also @ Cortomonez
using max{Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195, Average(Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195)} makes absolutely no sense.
max{Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195, Average(Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195)} = max{Kor Elo, Int Elo - 195}
The average of two numbers is never larger then the largest of those two numbers...
I'm not saying the way the 'overall ELO' is calculated now is the best choice (as I haven't looked into what these ELO's are based on really, how each match is valued etc.) but I think it's ok.
I do think the third argument (Average(Kor Elo, Int Elo)) needs to be changed or even removed as I think that argument is responsible for the unusually high scoring players as Bomber etc.
I don't really buy the argument that bomber is nearly as good as Nestea or MVP simply because he did well in a foreign tournament as well. I think that it's without doubt Nestea (and maybe MVP after this GSL) are by far the best players and the ELO rankings should reflect that. Averaging with the inflated ELO is a dodgy way to go about it that's for sure.
Ideally I think the two elo's would simply be merged into one but with a proper way to adress korean events as more important then non-korean events. Giving GSL etc the highest K-value etc.
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jw, what is the standard deviation of the difference of the international-Korean ELO's?
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This is really great. I would love to see top 25 on the right side of TL. Could even change it to TSL Qualification points rank during TSL. Thanks for all your hard work.
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Very nice, Plexa. TOP 10 looks pretty solid. Still wondering how the hell StC is in there! I know he is good and all that, but has he been winning GSTL or something to get so high?
Good job, gief more in the future!
ps. i also like the idea of SC2 Power Rank.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Interesting - some weird placements, but I guess that's how ELO works for now. Will be cool to see how this pans out in the next month or so.
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Plexa is the first one to conquer this feat, eep. Interesting results, I wouldn't place MC so high though considering really hasn't been all that dominant in several months.
On September 01 2011 14:59 travis wrote:
I keep seeing people rating stephano so highly. Is he really that good? I thought he was very inconsistent.
Also, how is there no naniwa.
okok I get it you just used point systems that already exist but still I think it's wrong with no naniwa lol
stephano is actually pretty consistent when you look at all the tournaments he's been in, but yeah more power to Plexa for trying to do something like this x-x
Your foreigner spread is quite interesting indeed. qxc so high from his gstl wins? o-O
I think we're still long way away from seeing Power Rank for SC2. Really no point for it at the moment too.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On September 01 2011 15:59 Animzor wrote:
TheSTC most overrated player ever?
Overrated means that people subjectively judge that a player is better than he objectively is. Since this list is based on Elo, which is objective no subjective, you can't use it as evidence that a player is overrated. Rather, I'd say it supports many people's high regard for TheStc, and suggests that all he is lacking is a big tournament result.
Interesting list Plexa.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
TheStC is rated so highly because he has a high elo in the foreigner scene.
On September 01 2011 21:21 Markwerf wrote:
since you're using a max formula it would be interesting to see for the players which of the 3 arguments is responsible for their score. Apparently the highest international elo's are higher then the korean elo as is reflected in bomber being on top, knowing stuff like this can put the list into perspective. Everyone except for Leenock used the combined ranking where possible.
I do think the third argument (Average(Kor Elo, Int Elo)) needs to be changed or even removed as I think that argument is responsible for the unusually high scoring players as Bomber etc.
I don't really buy the argument that bomber is nearly as good as Nestea or MVP simply because he did well in a foreign tournament as well. I think that it's without doubt Nestea (and maybe MVP after this GSL) are by far the best players and the ELO rankings should reflect that. Averaging with the inflated ELO is a dodgy way to go about it that's for sure. Bomber is #2 on the Korea ELO at the moment. So it's not that unreasonable for him to leap over Nestea, I'm personally more worried about MCs placement. And yeah, Bomber beat MVP last time they played.. so I dno why you're so worried about him when there are many other anomalies. I think that I should change the decay factor (which was included before the average calculation) to a game threshold rather than simply requiring a game to have been played in the last month. Something like, min. 15 games played in last 3 months or something with every game under that subtracting 10 points, when you reach 0 games played you are removed.
Ideally I think the two elo's would simply be merged into one but with a proper way to adress korean events as more important then non-korean events. Giving GSL etc the highest K-value etc. Yeah, but I can't touch the TLPD  I'll break it.
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two protoss in top 25 makes me so sad
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/ks.png)
Bomber
MC
NesTea![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/fr.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/tw.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/ca.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/pl.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/ua.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/se.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/us.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/flags/mx.png)
