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Danglars vs GhoST PvT, replay PvT for the discussion. He's producing 5 marines at a time and dies.
Danglars vs RedMosquito, replay #2.
Both replays are Metalopolis, one of the best maps due to easily harassed-by-air mineral lines and good proxy locations. All opponents are midmasters
Whenever I scout a Terran walloff on maps like Metalopolis, Shattered Temple, Xel Naga, and Shakuras, I become seriously inclined to proxy a stargate and attack the walloff with void rays. The proxy stargate is to try to keep it hidden from terran scans and scouts as well as get the first 2 void rays to the walloff as fast as protossly possible.
When I 2gate stargate, I'm spending every time of income on 1 base building probes / gateway / void rays. With the surplus of probes that accumulates, you get a significant boost in income upon expanding while still pinning your opponent in his base. Feels very loose, tons of followups possible, you don't have to outright kill him with your first attack and contain.
Compare this to 3gate stargate, where the first attack is reinforced much more heavily, you're inclined to cut probes at 1base saturation point to get the units out, as well as abruptly cut a gateway's production if you want more than a few initial void rays. There's a lot more pressure to land a kill doing this, but you have a lot more ground army to pressure the ramp until stuff dies at the top, or hold them at the ramp as your void rays attack at an exposed mineral line.
I've been leaning towards the 2gate stargate version because I like expanding against a Terran, and I'd like a substantial economy to fall back on / contain with if a multitude of bunkers and late viking production makes it obvious I will not break him. HOWEVER it is hard as hell to macro an additional nexus, probe transfer, more gateways from this income, etc when you're microing on the his ramp. You have this burden, knowing that if you let a ton of marines or MM down with a concave that all of your forces are dead. Stim makes the time period where this happens incredibly short. You will see on the game against GhoST that I let my minerals climb to 1k+ with me just staring at my army.
Timings:
1) When you scout a starport go down, you're better off only continuing the attack if stuff's dying left and right. You can't kite vikings with void rays; you can't keep him contained if he has the option to do a medivac drop. Make a decision to withdraw to your expansion or kill him before that port gets into production
2) Marine/Tank openings with bunkers can be VERY hard because tanks do good ranged damage to stalker before siege mode, and you can't camp the bottom of the ramp with gateway during siege mode. Also involves a factory so faster trip to vikings/medivacs
3) Scout a cloaked banshee opening and your luck is what you'll have to rely on. Depending on the exact time you dropped your stargate (I do after 1st gate and after 2nd depending on the ease of proxying the stargate and if he's scouting me) you may not be able to mount a significant enough assault in time. Build has no observers and no forge so cloaked death on your attacking units or defending can be game. If you are able to push in, spot the tech lab researching graphic (high density green particle effects) and kill it ASAP. You can switch to phoenixes to deal with an uncloaked banshee but the cloaked can ruin you.
4) Best timing is against expansion builds and passive play in general. If he's challenging your map control with 3rax or heavy pressure you may not be able to attack in your timing. Think void rays caught crossmap and gateway units walking to his ramp meeting MM with conc shells.
 
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2gate stargate is more vulnerable to build order losses than 3gate stargate.
if they're doing something like a cloaked banshee attack, trying to put pressure on with 2gate stargate and then expanding leaves you inordinately vulnerable for a long period of time. Unless you break the ramp and manage to delay the tech somehow, you can just instantly lose to the banshees.
a 3gate stargate doesn't have this problem as much, as its easier to break the ramp and win outright.
Generally speaking though, besides the risk of auto build order loss, the 2gate stargate is a "better" build as it can allow you to safely expand, forcing a midgame transition and that is always the sign of a good build, that it can sustain you through into the midgame.
If your goal is to just win outright, a 3gate stargate is flat out better. If your goal is to find a good build thats solid on the early game and can transition well without sacrificing economy into the midgame, you're better off with 2gate stargate, just see if you can find somewhere to squeeze in a forge and a cannon at each mineral line, or a robo solely for observers (if strapped for gas, go for the cannon as its minerals only (150x3 = 450 minerals) if strapped for minerals go for the robo as its 225/175 (200/100 for robo 25/75 for obs)
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On April 19 2011 17:39 Dhalphir wrote:
2gate stargate is more vulnerable to build order losses than 3gate stargate.
if they're doing something like a cloaked banshee attack, trying to put pressure on with 2gate stargate and then expanding leaves you inordinately vulnerable for a long period of time. Unless you break the ramp and manage to delay the tech somehow, you can just instantly lose to the banshees.
a 3gate stargate doesn't have this problem as much, as its easier to break the ramp and win outright.
Generally speaking though, besides the risk of auto build order loss, the 2gate stargate is a "better" build as it can allow you to safely expand, forcing a midgame transition and that is always the sign of a good build, that it can sustain you through into the midgame.
If your goal is to just win outright, a 3gate stargate is flat out better. If your goal is to find a good build thats solid on the early game and can transition well without sacrificing economy into the midgame, you're better off with 2gate stargate, just see if you can find somewhere to squeeze in a forge and a cannon at each mineral line, or a robo solely for observers (if strapped for gas, go for the cannon as its minerals only (150x3 = 450 minerals) if strapped for minerals go for the robo as its 225/175 (200/100 for robo 25/75 for obs)
You may even want to see if you can get away with 1gate stargate and squeeze in a robo that way, if your macro is perfect (using that gate constantly and chronoboosting it and you go for an expansion earlier, you can get still a fair amount of gateway units with your void rays to pressure the front, and be safe from attack)
Definitely do not proxy the stargate if you're going 2gate stargate.
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On April 19 2011 17:39 Dhalphir wrote:
2gate stargate is more vulnerable to build order losses than 3gate stargate.
if they're doing something like a cloaked banshee attack, trying to put pressure on with 2gate stargate and then expanding leaves you inordinately vulnerable for a long period of time. Unless you break the ramp and manage to delay the tech somehow, you can just instantly lose to the banshees.
a 3gate stargate doesn't have this problem as much, as its easier to break the ramp and win outright.
Generally speaking though, besides the risk of auto build order loss, the 2gate stargate is a "better" build as it can allow you to safely expand, forcing a midgame transition and that is always the sign of a good build, that it can sustain you through into the midgame.
If your goal is to just win outright, a 3gate stargate is flat out better. If your goal is to find a good build thats solid on the early game and can transition well without sacrificing economy into the midgame, you're better off with 2gate stargate, just see if you can find somewhere to squeeze in a forge and a cannon at each mineral line, or a robo solely for observers (if strapped for gas, go for the cannon as its minerals only (150x3 = 450 minerals) if strapped for minerals go for the robo as its 225/175 (200/100 for robo 25/75 for obs)
You can squeeze in a forge as security against banshees even in the 3gate stargate bust. The reason is that you want your army to be be almost entirely stalkers and void rays, which means that gas is your limiting resource and you'll have some excess minerals. If you scout early and find an incomplete wall-off, gas stealing is another option to prevent quick banshees.
If you're opening 2gate stargate and going for an expand, you probably don't want to be overly aggressive. Just use harassment with air units to hinder the terran and keep him in a defensive mindset.
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Interesting comments thus far. No, my goal is not to win outright UNLESS it's a 1rax FE (with 2 or fewer bunkers) or 2rax FE (same constraint). I don't mind transitioning into a somewhat normal build if he's better than me using a 1/1/1 hellion drop or 3rax stim timing.
Have to disagree on proxy stargate comments. I have the most trouble with cloaked banshees when I have to wait for a stargate in base to rally the void rays crossmap (I do this crossmap spawns like shakuras or taldarim, similar walloffs scouted). Void rays are too damn slow and maps can be very very big.
I agree with the pressure, you don't have to break him right then and there. I go back to my original thought: I'm doing this in reaction to a walloff so he has something risked on the ledge, giving my harass some additional meat. That and of course, I don't have to precharge on proxy pylons (not that it's bad) and can do it on supply depots / barracks / CC. Good good discussion! I'm a big believer in robo just for obs if its a cloaked banshee build -- I like the mobility, and with cannons there's nearly always some key pylons or buildings I can't get covered by 3 cannons! Cannons are for me stopgap measure until robo completes IF I don't have the gas.
Glad to hear some other people doing it and their experiences =) Happy PvTing
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EPT
