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I believe the last time I seriously participated (more than one post) in a balance discussion was about 6 months ago (+- 2 months, I'm really not sure), when I still practiced actively. I created this blog because it's really frustrating to read these thread pages.
I take a look at the "Patch 1.3 on PTR" thread from time to time, and just to quote a couple of posts from the currently last page (page 87 as of the writing of this blog):
[ In my opinion, for various reasons plainly worthless posts (no serious contribution, topic derailment, swearing etc.), even though some of them might not have bad intentions behind them]
On February 26 2011 23:20 vvJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:17 vvJustice wrote:On February 26 2011 23:11 Lurk wrote:On February 26 2011 23:07 vvJustice wrote:Like how Terrans abuse the MULE correctly?
HT's are used lategame because they are lategame its the natural path to take. Bringing the MULE-argument is like saying "Hey, i got no clue about the game but i wanted to say something regardless". Next time, before you post, you should maybe read some of the thousand threads that proved month ago that mules are not an advantage for terran. HAHAHAHAHAA Never said they gave terran advantage I just meant that "some" terrans I am not trying to speak for every single Terran. No need to talk shit kid.
On February 26 2011 23:22 xilaratu wrote:
Ah, the patch notes thread. Never has there been a more wretched hive of scum of villainy. (Well, except maybe balance threads, but those are along the same vein).
I like all of the patch changes.
On February 26 2011 23:24 thesideshow wrote:
From experiences from WoW, blizzard likes to make unpopular choices, but in hindsight they always seem to get things right. I trust them. Besides, this is still PTR, subject to changes. Give them a chance!
On February 26 2011 23:28 pluvos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:24 thesideshow wrote:
From experiences from WoW, blizzard likes to make unpopular choices, but in hindsight they always seem to get things right. I trust them. Besides, this is still PTR, subject to changes. Give them a chance! if you honestly think that blizzard makes good choices based on what they did with wow, you are delusional.
On February 26 2011 23:32 Lucius22 wrote:
a terrible patch with even more terrible maps, i think ill never resume in playing 1v 1
On February 26 2011 23:32 ckukner wrote:
Even as a Zerg player I believe 30 seconds of waiting is quite a long time for HT. Do not understand why there was no collosus nerf but a templar nerf.
On February 26 2011 23:34 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:11 Lurk wrote:On February 26 2011 23:07 vvJustice wrote:Like how Terrans abuse the MULE correctly?
HT's are used lategame because they are lategame its the natural path to take. Bringing the MULE-argument is like saying "Hey, i got no clue about the game but i wanted to say something regardless". Next time, before you post, you should maybe read some of the thousand threads that proved month ago that mules are not an advantage for terran. Have you got a link to a thread?
Those are 7/17 posts on that page.
If you look at the other posts, most of them clearly try to contribute something, but use arguable methods of discussion,"facts" and logics at best. Example:
On February 26 2011 23:22 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:16 Lurk wrote:On February 26 2011 23:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On February 26 2011 23:04 gillon wrote:
HTs are used in ever single PvT ever that goes lategame. Some tosses (read: alot) are even skipping colossi completely and going immortal/gateway into HT.
This is because of how ridiculously strong HTs are. With the warpin, it essentialy becomes an unwinnable situation for a terran if it's abused correctly and the map isn't something tiny like steppes. Explain why a T3 unit should not be strong against a T1 unit? So, thors (T3) should be good vs zealots (T1) and banshees/battlecruiser (T3) should be good versus stalkers (T1) ? Now explain to me, why by your logic protoss T3 counters terran T1 but terran T3 doesn't counter protoss T1. thors? banshees? Temp archives is a dead end tech tree , you don't even get dark templars from it anymore. Thors need a machine shop and an armory , machine shop lets you also build tanks and armory upgrades said tanks so it's not a dead end tech tree Banshee , same deal , once you put the addon on the starport you can also build medivac Once again , temp archives is a dead end , expensive tech tree that needs to be very viable , compared to sc1 temp archives is a joke. Also stalkers isn't tier one , you need a cybernetics core to build.
I don't know. You can't really argue with these posts since there is no objective way of proving that someones opinion is bad. But for some reason they frustrate me when I read them.
For obvious reasons I haven't read all 87 pages of that thread, but the ones I've read don't really look much different, and I doubt that the others which I've not seen do.
Balance discussions always were kind of garbage dumps and I'm certainly not a generator of super high quality posts myself, but was it really always that bad? Can't people even try to think before they post and think about contributing something?
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im gonna go ahead and say:
inb4 old vs new forum members bashing each other and the old members bringing up false nostalgic sentiments about how good the forums were before sc2, when they probably were just as bad as now, just with a smaller overall number of people and them being less sensitive to the mudslinging as a result of that
User was temp banned for this post + 2 recent warnings
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I used to read the discussion of patch notes in Beta, I have stopped since retail because of this. Most of it is knee jerk reactions that people feel they need to spew before even trying the changes and then making a judgment on them. I usually read the OP for the notes then go browse a different thread or section.
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I understand you man, I get frustrated reading those too... But you get those comments when you play the game too. Out of 5 person, i usually get one thats gonna say GG at the end, 3 are gonna just leave and 1 that will comment on how blizzard is failing and how he wouldve won if stim took longer to upgrade and stuff :S
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When I saw the threads about the 1.3 PTR I just thought to myself: "Not again..."
People just get so upset with some changes that Blizzard is TRIYNG. They aren't definitive. They will probably get tweaked or removed. We don't know anything at the moment simply because people didn't have enough time to experiment with the changes.
So instead of reading countless pages of QQ I went to see Catz stream (available in VOD too) where he and other experienced players (Sheth, Gretorp and Strife) give their thoughts on the PTR changes and on the new maps on the ladder. Very good stuff.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196390
Those threads full of rubbish are hazardous to your health. Avoid them like the plague.
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The patch note threads are always like that. Good discussions can be had at a later time in a different thread when emotions have settled and people are starting to think straight again.
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I also don't really find myself discussing balance, patch changes, or even strategy anymore. I'm no expert, but I find it hard to trust the criticism and advice I find there. Honestly patches change the game in ways we can't possibly predict (although we might anticipate those changes broadly).
The use of units is based not only on their individual strength, but their opportunity cost relative to other units in the race's arsenal and their usefulness relative to game timings. I don't think there's a better way of analyzing balance than crunching raw win percentage numbers from adequate, accurately representative samples.
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I always open up those kinds of threads, write a response, and then decide it's not worth it and close out the tab.
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On February 27 2011 00:24 limonovich wrote:
im gonna go ahead and say:
inb4 old vs new forum members bashing each other and the old members bringing up false nostalgic sentiments about how good the forums were before sc2, when they probably were just as bad as now, just with a smaller overall number of people and them being less sensitive to the mudslinging as a result of that
this is not /b/ so your neither your inb4 nor your assessment is appropriate.
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On February 27 2011 01:38 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 00:24 limonovich wrote:
im gonna go ahead and say:
inb4 old vs new forum members bashing each other and the old members bringing up false nostalgic sentiments about how good the forums were before sc2, when they probably were just as bad as now, just with a smaller overall number of people and them being less sensitive to the mudslinging as a result of that this is not /b/ so your neither your inb4 nor your assessment is appropriate.
Nor yours.
Personally, it depends on the person. Some people just like to say remarks such as 'I like this, I like that' while others try to contribute. Though most people here expect a lot of users to contribute in the thread, some people are just not willing to (or don't have enough insights to do so in a given thread).
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I've been reading TL since mid-summer of last year, and joined probably 2 or 3 months ago. I agree with you that the quality of the posts especially in the strategy section are terrible. It seems like every day theres at least 2 or 3 post in the strategy section along these lines: TvP Un-winable!!! or Lost this ZvT Zerg UP!!!!. Its starting to aggravate me when every time I go into the strategy section someone is posting a replay asking the community to analyze it for them, when they themselves can't take 10 or 15 minutes themselves to just figure out what they did wrong.
It's starting to make me lose hope in the community as a whole when someone makes a post calling some build "IMBA" instead of getting on SC2 and practicing against it and trying to find a way to beat it. I don't think you have the right to call something "IMBA" until you have truely exhausted all your possibilities in beating it. But, thats just my two cents, hope I didn't go to far off topic. 
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Maybe it's just me, but I tend to rush straight for the patch-note/balance threads. I just find them some of the most entertaining threads on TL. Sure, there are a lot of morons and trolls, but people stating their opinions and arguing about the game is at least more interesting than half of the "XvY Need help against W" or "Is X conventional wisdom really true?" or "What's your favorite break-up song" or some such garbage.
TL will never be able to secede from the internet, might as well not take things so seriously and just enjoy the gems that you can. Sometimes troll posts ARE the gems if you have an appropriate sense of humor 
But I agree when it comes to posting that less is usually more.
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On February 27 2011 00:24 limonovich wrote:
im gonna go ahead and say:
inb4 old vs new forum members bashing each other and the old members bringing up false nostalgic sentiments about how good the forums were before sc2, when they probably were just as bad as now, just with a smaller overall number of people and them being less sensitive to the mudslinging as a result of that
User was temp banned for this post + 2 recent warnings
I know you're not addressing me directly, but I'd just like to say that I'm not an "old" member by a long shot. And my concerns will probably not be limited to the "old" guys.
On February 27 2011 03:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:TL will never be able to secede from the internet, might as well not take things so seriously and just enjoy the gems that you can. Sometimes troll posts ARE the gems if you have an appropriate sense of humor
Two things:
First of all, I believe TL already distinguishes itself quite well from most other forums/websites. Simply put, this place is better if you're looking for good discussions, interesting articles or threads on all kinds of things (not only SC-related) filled with factually backed up data (since the mods usually do a great job at cleaning up stuff which does not live up to their standard). Overall, yes, there will be a lot of low-quality-posts, but usually in one of those interesting threads.
Secondly, the biggest problem is that there are a lot of smart people here, but their voices absolutely drown beneath the sheer masses of ... lesser posters. In a thread of 100+ pages which is largely filled with bad posts you usually have a hard time finding the good gems, especially if you don't have the chance of following the thread from the beginning (because you're sleeping, for example).
The SC2 Strategy forum has improved greatly in that regard by adding that little feature of post-highlighting. Ideally, something like this would exist in every sub-forum, and even better, you should be able to view all "highlighted" posts in a thread at once. I'm not sure why something like this doesn't already exist in the SC2 General forums. Maybe the required administration effort would be too big, seeing as the TL mods already have their hands pretty full with other stuff. Highlighting posts from guys like Excalibur_Z would really help. Then again, he's already part of the hammer clan, so the red hammer next to his nick catches attention anyways.
On February 27 2011 00:55 EdSlyB wrote:
People just get so upset with some changes that Blizzard is TRIYNG. They aren't definitive. They will probably get tweaked or removed. We don't know anything at the moment simply because people didn't have enough time to experiment with the changes.
This is what I find most confusing. Whenever I see patchnotes, whatever they are, my immediate reaction is that of excitement and joy. After all, every patch usually changes the state of the game drastically and as a result of that, playing and watching games becomes much more fun immediately. I don't get the negativity, especially with changes like the fungal growth change when people, like you pointed out, haven't even tried them yet.
Thanks for the link by the way, almost forgot about that.
On February 27 2011 01:18 Enervate wrote:
I always open up those kinds of threads, write a response, and then decide it's not worth it and close out the tab.
Haha, I wanted to add something like this to the "Things that I think only I do" thread in the general forums, but then I decided it's not worth it to bump the thread for it and closed out the tab.
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try to skip any posts that are less than one screen long. :D Maybe TL should have an option to disable all posts with less than 200 chars in it for any thread with more than 15 pages or something xD
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On February 27 2011 05:43 MisterD wrote:
try to skip any posts that are less than one screen long. :D Maybe TL should have an option to disable all posts with less than 200 chars in it for any thread with more than 15 pages or something xD
No dice, many of the worst posts are extremely long!
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I think to stay sane, I've just learned how to tell a post is bad by looking at the post count, then reading the first sentence. From there, you can usually tell how horrible a post is going to be - saves a lot of time / headaches.
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I absolutely agree.
I signed up for this forum because I felt that the quality was really high just do realize that after 2 months it has been swarmed by trolls and smartasses.
Now I already got a warning and temp ban because I just couldn't stand some of them so hard, it's like a snowball effect..
My most recent attempt to write something that has quality got kinda stomped by retards
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198622
I dont know, when I signed up, like 3 months ago, it was different. But all of a sudden.. I dunno
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EPT
