EPTWe work too much - Page 3
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
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Impervious
Canada4209 Posts
On July 04 2010 00:32 exeexe wrote: With 8 hours per day at work there will be more scientists and enterpreneurs ready to do work for the company. The long workday scares a lot of people away. Like if 100/120 students starts at the university only 40/50 will make it through. Think of it as in 120 who had the dream of being an engineer and 70 dreams that got destroyed. Its a big waste right there. KK So with more people avialable for the engineering jobs there can be shifts. Engineer A arrives at 0700 goes home 1500 and Engineer B comes at 1500 and go home at 2300. thats 16 hours of work, and thats possible because there will be more engineers, and thats possible because there will be robots doing the manual jobs which only requirre none or low education. To put it with some graphics: M = a man R = robots old times: low skilled jobs: MMMMMMMMMMM = 11*8 hours = 88 manhours high skilled jobs: MM = 2*12 hours = 24 manhours Now with 8 hour work day: low skilled jobs: RRRRRRMMMMMM = proberbly even more than 88 manhours high skilled jobs: MMMMMMM = 7*8 hours = 56 manhours Now with 12 hour work day: low skilled jobs: RRRRRRMMMMMM = proberbly even more than 88 manhours high skilled jobs: MM = 2*12 hours = 24 manhours Unemployed: MMMMMM = waste However following this doesnt solve the environment problem though. I'm working in a factory right now, and from what I've seen, each robot eliminates 4 low-skill jobs. Not 6. But you're forgetting something..... Those robots, while reducing the number of people needed by generally around 4, create extra work for the operators and the technicians who setup/maintain it, generating more high skilled jobs. It also requires engineers to design the device, and more technicians to install it. It also creates accounting jobs because they have to keep track of more transactions between businesses, etc..... There are also salespeople who are needed to sell the robots..... It doesn't eliminate 4 jobs, it eliminates 4 low-skill jobs and adds probably 1-2 high-skill jobs somewhere else. While that is not a good trend, it's not as bad as you make it seem. Also, I'm working continental shifts (12 hrs). Officially, I'm scheduled for 3 days one week, 4 the next, adding up to 84 hours in 2 weeks (4 hrs more than a standard 8 hr a day, 5 day a week schedule). It also increases possibility for overtime (more days off that I can be called in, among other things). If I don't go in for extra shifts, I have 3 or 4 days off each week, yet I earn more than I would with a 5 day week at 8 hrs a day. I like it this way. My priority is to make a lot of cash this summer, as much as possible. I worked 6 shifts last week (I had Canada day off). If my priority was to relax, or whatever, I would have been able to turn down the additional shifts, and worked only 4 shifts, giving me 3 days off. It also means that the machines can be run by 4 people, on a 24/7 basis. That is good for the company because their production is maximized. It is much harder to do with an 8-hr a day schedule. 8 hr a day is stupid in a lot of cases. As much as I am in agreement that people need to slow down, you can be slowed down while still working more than 8 hours in a day..... EDITED | ||
Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
On July 06 2010 03:54 Impervious wrote: plus there is a legal requirement in Canada to have 24 consecutive hours off work each week. Are you sure about this? I'm legitimately curious because it affects my job scheduling contractors. The two rules I've heard (and followed) in Alberta are: - A worker cannot be scheduled for more than 12 hours a day, including travel time [if it is paid travel time]. If an emergency strikes he can work more, but it cannot be pre-planned work. - A worker cannot work more than 21 consecutive days. We often schedule 21 12-hour days in a row during construction. I forget the amount of time you have to give after that, I believe it's 4 days. It could be a provincial thing, I'm not sure, but I'd like to know the law. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4209 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
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Impervious
Canada4209 Posts
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Impervious
Canada4209 Posts
ESA 2000 (updated 2004) - 18.4 (a and b) Somewhere further down it mentions that it can be overwritten in several cases, mostly revolving around the continuation of essential services, or if the employee/employer agree verbally/in writing to do it differently. Etc..... | ||
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Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On July 04 2010 00:32 exeexe wrote: With 8 hours per day at work there will be more scientists and enterpreneurs ready to do work for the company. The long workday scares a lot of people away. Like if 100/120 students starts at the university only 40/50 will make it through. Think of it as in 120 who had the dream of being an engineer and 70 dreams that got destroyed. Its a big waste right there. Even if your argument was valid it wouldn't justify banning people from working more than 8 hours. Why not just say that everyone who wants to work more can but also make it possible to work only 8hours a day. On a more abstract level I'd rather try to defend my interests against possible employers myself rather than rely on the government to do it for me. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4209 Posts
ESA Alberta Days of rest 19(1) Every employer must allow each employee at least (a) one day of rest in each work week, (b) 2 consecutive days of rest in each period of 2 consecutive work weeks, (c) 3 consecutive days of rest in each period of 3 consecutive work weeks, or (d) 4 consecutive days of rest in each period of 4 consecutive work weeks. (2) Every employer must allow each employee at least 4 consecutive days of rest after each 24 consecutive work days. It's similar to the Ontario standards, in that respect. Although, Ontario only requires 11 consecutive hours off each day, with only 8 inbetween shifts :/ And contractual work can be different as well..... | ||
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TitleRug
United States651 Posts
On July 03 2010 22:31 Baksteen wrote: If everyone worked less the whole world would make less money meaning things would cost less meaning we would buy the same amount of stuff as we do now. And how would you apply that everyone only works 8 hours a day? There is no way to regulate that. For alot of people work is also a way of earning their self esteem. They feel good about the work they do. From there on it's a given they want to do their work correct, and put in more hours if needed. It is important to not work to much though, you are right about that. But there is no way you could make it happen. There will always be people who will want to work more and will do so. This actually makes a lot of sense. How did we go from 2 hours of hunting and gathering to 12 hours of work? | ||
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
On July 06 2010 05:33 TitleRug wrote: insert quote - read the above post lol You wanted to quote this: On July 03 2010 23:41 stroggos wrote: I don't think It should be a basic human right to not work more than 8 hours, but i do think that it should be a right that 8 hours of work is enough to get you by in any country. otherwise it seems like a step back from when hunter gatherers only worked for 2 hours a day. On July 06 2010 04:55 hypercube wrote: Even if your argument was valid it wouldn't justify banning people from working more than 8 hours. Why not just say that everyone who wants to work more can but also make it possible to work only 8hours a day. On a more abstract level I'd rather try to defend my interests against possible employers myself rather than rely on the government to do it for me. Because there would be competition between the drunk 12 hours working random dudes and the we-have-a-life 8 hour working human beings. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32081 Posts
On July 06 2010 02:45 Orome wrote: lol my brain still can't comprehend how the US can consider 1-2 weeks of holidays per year standard. I mean COME ON, you have to get out once in a while. It really is crazy how the mentality is different. what tonight said is true, certain jobs pay veeeeery well for working overtime. My old job at a liquor store paid me like fucking 19$/hr on sundays/OT. Unfortunately, I am now salary at my job, so I get boned whether I work 40 or 60hrs a week. | ||
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TunaFishyMe
Canada150 Posts
Investment bankers work 14-15 hours a day. Why? Because its high stress, high risk, big reward. You can easily start 55k or so, and then get a 40-50k performance bonus at the end of the year in an entry position. Management consulting...same thing. 10-12 hours, probably starts 50-55k, performance bonus 20-30k. These are the upper echelon jobs ppl want to do (if you have mind for it). The environment is competitive. There are hundreds of analysts but only a few positions to move up. The reward, if you get promoted is huge. How do you stay at the top? You can't control how smart you are, but you can control how hard you work. That mentality goes the same everwhere. How do you get a promotion? Beat everyone else. If you aren't smart enough to do 12 hours of work in 8 hours, then you have to put in the 12 hours. Say you can do 12 hours of work in 8 hours. You'll be able to do 18 hours of work in 12 hours! Then you'll get the promotion for sure! If you arent competitive, or your job doesn't have that sort of promotion reward, and you are working 12 hours a day with no merit, i think you should change jobs to something less challenging. | ||
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Glacierz
United States1244 Posts
On July 06 2010 23:00 TunaFishyMe wrote: some jobs need it. Investment bankers work 14-15 hours a week. Why? Because its high stress, high risk, big reward. You can easily start 55k or so, and then get a 40-50k performance bonus at the end of the year in an entry position. Management consulting...same thing. 10-12 hours, probably starts 50-55k, performance bonus 20-30k. These are the upper echelon jobs ppl want to do (if you have mind for it). The environment is competitive. There are hundreds of analysts but only a few positions to move up. The reward, if you get promoted is huge. How do you stay at the top? You can't control how smart you are, but you can control how hard you work. That mentality goes the same everwhere. How do you get a promotion? Beat everyone else. If you aren't smart enough to do 12 hours of work in 8 hours, then you have to put in the 12 hours. Say you can do 12 hours of work in 8 hours. You'll be able to do 18 hours of work in 12 hours! Then you'll get the promotion for sure! If you arent competitive, or your job doesn't have that sort of promotion reward, and you are working 12 hours a day with no merit, i think you should change jobs to something less challenging. Many entry level ibankers work over 16 hrs a day with no weekends off (averaging ~110-120 hrs a week). The base salary + performance bonus averages about $10/hr if you count anything over 40hrs/week as overtime. Good deal? I think not. | ||
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TunaFishyMe
Canada150 Posts
On July 06 2010 23:14 Glacierz wrote: Many entry level ibankers work over 16 hrs a day with no weekends off (averaging ~110-120 hrs a week). The base salary + performance bonus averages about $10/hr if you count anything over 40hrs/week as overtime. Good deal? I think not. It's a great deal. Why? Because your salary increases exponentially as you progress through the company instead of the measely 2% to beat inflation. You have to pay your dues. In Management Consulting, if you make partner (lower level partner) you can easily pull in 400-500k a year. Higher partners pull in a lot more. Obviously, its tough to get there, but you can see why ppl work so hard. Are there any jobs out where you work 8 hours a day that can match this? I'm not sure what the numbers are in IB but its higher than MC. People who are willing to work hard aren't look at what their job can give them currently, but what their job can give them in the future. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32081 Posts
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TunaFishyMe
Canada150 Posts
On July 06 2010 23:44 Hawk wrote: Guess it's a matter of priorities. $100k/yr don't mean shit if you're logging 90+hours at the office. When the hell are you gonna spend it?? haha... There are always way to spend money. But you could always retire faster or something. I don't know. It is a matter of priorities. For me, I rather have money than not. | ||
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Glacierz
United States1244 Posts
On July 06 2010 23:23 TunaFishyMe wrote: It's a great deal. Why? Because your salary increases exponentially as you progress through the company instead of the measely 2% to beat inflation. You have to pay your dues. In Management Consulting, if you make partner (lower level partner) you can easily pull in 400-500k a year. Higher partners pull in a lot more. Obviously, its tough to get there, but you can see why ppl work so hard. Are there any jobs out where you work 8 hours a day that can match this? I'm not sure what the numbers are in IB but its higher than MC. People who are willing to work hard aren't look at what their job can give them currently, but what their job can give them in the future. Well I personally won't last long enough before getting burned out (i'm pretty sure over half the people are out before they get to the exponential growth in pay). At the end of the day, you can only take so many 17 hr days in a row... Not to mention the sacrifice of health and personal life... I agree with you if you can survive it for more than a few years it will pay off, but for most people that will not be the case. | ||
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TunaFishyMe
Canada150 Posts
On July 06 2010 23:55 Glacierz wrote: Well I personally won't last long enough before getting burned out (i'm pretty sure over half the people are out before they get to the exponential growth in pay). At the end of the day, you can only take so many 17 hr days in a row... Not to mention the sacrifice of health and personal life... I agree with you if you can survive it for more than a few years it will pay off, but for most people that will not be the case. yea its a up our out mentality. Most people are out after 2 years cuz they are just burnt out. However, the exit opportunities are great and you can take the skills elsewhere. If you worked for big MC/IB companies, people will respect that and youll more opportunities Many entry level ibankers work over 16 hrs a day with no weekends off (averaging ~110-120 hrs a week). The base salary + performance bonus averages about $10/hr if you count anything over 40hrs/week as overtime. Good deal? I think not. | ||
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