If the universe is governed by a strict set of rules, everything comes from a large cause and effect relationship similar to what happens in that commercial.
So me going 9 pool speed in my last game would have been caused starting from the very beginning of the universe: a particle hits another particle, which hits another particle, etc. for billions of years which finally causes me to lay down my spawning pool at 9.
Since my "decision" to go 9 pool stems purely from physic interactions starting eons ago, does that mean I have no free will? Everything I do is already predetermined because of the laws of physics?
Just because you exist of very old matter doesn't mean it determines your actions. Free will is still around, unless you are a TL member. Browse TL - close browser - reopen browser - open TL
its like that thing I used to hear "either what you decide to do is random, or it was not random and thus predetermined, hence there is no free will!1"
I loved that. It's either A or B because I say so hence it can't be C
you could say that. you chose to do 9 pool because of how you were brought up, how you play sc, how you study sc, how you practice sc. how you do all those things depends on what came before those, etc etc. that's one way of thinking about it.
And then I decided that I wasn't going to think about it any more. Do you know that they took THOUSANDS of attempts to get that commercial to work properly? All of the fancy physics that went into it said that it should have worked the first time..... And every time.....
There is too much unpredictability to worry about that. If you're right, you're right, and there's nothing you can do about it.
We don't know enough about physics to make any significant claims about free will (at least, from this perspective). When we have a better understanding of the nature of indeterminism in quantum mechanics then maybe we can make a reasonable conclusion about whether or not every action we make is truly predetermined.
You are making a wrong assumption when you say everything is related to a cause and effect relationship. For example the electron, we know it exist somewhere in the "perimeter" of the atom but we cant find it. Thats because its everywhere in the perimeter but not 2 places at the same time.
there is an inherent randomness in the movement of atoms (physics) so nothing can be predicted from the past state (at least not compeltely accurately) whether this implies that we have free will or not -- i will let the philosopher answer this because i am not entirely sure
I don't see why the question of free will even matters really. Who cares if you have free will or not or if your life is predetermined, as long as your consciousness works as if you have free will it doesn't mean much. Even if we dont have any free will, you have to treat people as if they have free will, that's the only way we can live.
Edit:
On April 19 2010 14:59 phosphorylation wrote: there is an inherent randomness in the movement of atoms (physics) so nothing can be predicted from the past state (at least not compeltely accurately) whether this implies that we have free will or not -- i will let the philosopher answer this because i am not entirely sure
Quantum physics does not have much to do with this right now. It merely states that tiny particles act in a probabilistic manner, the question that we should ask is if we are merely biological programs like say bacteria which act on a probabilistic based genetic behavior pattern and if our consciousness does not give us any free will at all, we are all driven to some extent by biological probability behavioral patterns, but does that strip us from any free will and is our conscious free will an illusion. I am not saying quantum mechanics is completely meaningless, but it's negligible in complex biological systems where interactions are fine tuned, I remember reading on a certain type of bacterium that only has 60 free H+ protons to do molecular work inside itself. The question of quantum mechanics asks if our entire universe is deterministic and not whether we have free will or not at this stage.
It's an interesting question from a thought experiment process, but for me it falls into the category of "that's cool".
Let's say it's correct, and that its random interaction of subatomic particles that result in the various nerver impulses you send, the thoughts you have, the actions you make. If that's true, what difference does it make; is it going to have any effect on how you feel like you choose live your life. I know it won't to me. I feel like I'm living out my life with free will, and thats good enough for me. See as how in the above case there is nothing I could possibly do to change that, I see no reason to worry about it besides academic interest.
Various interpretations of quantum mechanics exist, each having different ideas about why things occur the way they do. But, as Micronesia said, we don't have a good enough understanding to know what makes quantum behavior operate the way it does.
On April 19 2010 14:59 phosphorylation wrote: there is an inherent randomness in the movement of atoms (physics) so nothing can be predicted from the past state (at least not compeltely accurately) whether this implies that we have free will or not -- i will let the philosopher answer this because i am not entirely sure
Free will doesn't exist. Our emotions actually are in charge of our decisions, and it is only a little part of the brain called Gazaniga's Interpreter (Gazaniga is the neuroscientist who theorized it) which gives us the impression of control by rationalizing decisions after our amygdala (seat of emotion in the brain) has already made them. This takes place in fractions of a second.
So no, your decision to 9 pool was not a conscious one, it was merely a result of your emotional system learning that a 9 pool was the best and choosing to do it before the interpreter came in and interpreted the already made decision as a fully rational one.
I think random basically means if you do something, then go back in time and do the same thing under the exact conditions, it will not necessarily have the same outcome as the first time.
for instance, obviously if you roll a dice like how I described above, it'll have the same outcome both times. Same with a "random number generator" on a computer.
On April 19 2010 15:14 Two_DoWn wrote: Free will doesn't exist. Our emotions actually are in charge of our decisions, and it is only a little part of the brain called Gazaniga's Interpreter (Gazaniga is the neuroscientist who theorized it) which gives us the impression of control by rationalizing decisions after our amygdala (seat of emotion in the brain) has already made them. This takes place in fractions of a second.
So no, your decision to 9 pool was not a conscious one, it was merely a result of your emotional system learning that a 9 pool was the best and choosing to do it before the interpreter came in and interpreted the already made decision as a fully rational one.
Visual communication theory ftw!
Journal citations please.
When you make large claims such as this you have to bring evidence with it. I do know of this study, but show me multiple studies along with this that support this theory.
I am also a strong believer in determinism. Currently, we do not have the information to decipher whether free will does exist or not, since we only know about 40% of how the human brain works. It's a very interesting topic, and I think it will eventually be handed from philosophy to science.
So no, your decision to 9 pool was not a conscious one, it was merely a result of your emotional system learning that a 9 pool was the best and choosing to do it before the interpreter came in and interpreted the already made decision as a fully rational one.
How would an emotional system know that 9 pool is best, what does deciding to 9 pool or not have to do with emotional centers or emotions; its a logical decision based on past experiences, knowledge, and external stimuli.
I could be wrong but the idea of a left brain interpretor doesn't seem to be universally accepted. Searching for basic articles on Gazaniga's Interpreter, brain interpreter, etc. don't turn up much. Nothing that really describes the Interpreter itself in detail explaining why/how it functions.
On April 19 2010 15:14 Two_DoWn wrote: Free will doesn't exist. Our emotions actually are in charge of our decisions, and it is only a little part of the brain called Gazaniga's Interpreter (Gazaniga is the neuroscientist who theorized it) which gives us the impression of control by rationalizing decisions after our amygdala (seat of emotion in the brain) has already made them. This takes place in fractions of a second.
So no, your decision to 9 pool was not a conscious one, it was merely a result of your emotional system learning that a 9 pool was the best and choosing to do it before the interpreter came in and interpreted the already made decision as a fully rational one.
Visual communication theory ftw!
Journal citations please.
When you make large claims such as this you have to bring evidence with it. I do know of this study, but show me multiple studies along with this that support this theory.
EPT
