• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 20:59
CET 02:59
KST 10:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump0Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win
Tourneys
StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Foreign Brood War Data analysis on 70 million replays MBCGame Torrents
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread The Perfect Game
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
Physical Exertion During Gam…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1753 users

A Puzzling Fortnight - Day 4

Blogs > JeeJee
Post a Reply
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-13 19:40:45
February 13 2010 19:31 GMT
#1
Well, the last puzzle brought up quite a storm. Congratulations to FoieGras for his solution!

Today, let's take a shot at the common coin weighing puzzle. Of course, just like yesterday's common true/false puzzle, there is going to be a difficult twist to it.

Here we go!
You have an arbitrarily accurate scale at your disposal, and 52 coins. These coins are divided into 13 piles of 4. All coins are identical and each weigh X grams, except for one pile, where the four coins are fake and each weigh X+d grams. More precisely, X is a positive integer and d is a non-zero (real) number strictly between -5 and +5.

Given 2 weighings on your scale, find which pile has the fake coins. Also find the values of X and d.

GL!

****
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
Gretorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States586 Posts
February 13 2010 19:59 GMT
#2
I love your puzzles JeeJee keep it up, will work on this one when i can. Gosh I wish I could keep up withe everyone :-)

I am Unheard Change
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-13 20:05:49
February 13 2010 20:04 GMT
#3
--- Nuked ---
The6357
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States1268 Posts
February 13 2010 20:35 GMT
#4
we only get 2 weighings?
2010 worldcup!! corea fighting!!!
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
February 13 2010 20:41 GMT
#5
+ Show Spoiler +
Make a pile with coins chosen from piles 1-13 like so:
4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 0
You will get 34x + (up to 4) d

If your answer is within 14 of a multiple of 34, then you know what X is (closest multiple).

Then pile them on like this:
0 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 3 4 3 4 0

Since you know X, you can figure out (up to 4) d. Then depending on if the ratio between these two numbers (up to 4) d is 0, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1/3, 2/3, 1, 4/3, 3/2, 2, 3, 4, or infinity, you can figure out which pile it is in and also d.

If your answer is not within 14 of a multiple of 34, you know that the bad pile is in piles one through eight. Weigh this pile:
0 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 4 4 4 4 4
You now have 36x + (up to 4) d. If your answer is within 15 of a multiple of 36, then you know X, and hence (up to 4) d, and determine the bad pile and d depending if the ratio is 0, 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4, 1/3, 2/3, or 1. This will be the case if the bad pile is in piles one through seven. If your answer is not, then you know it was the eighth pile and now you know both 34X + 4d and 36X + 4d so you can find both X and d this way.
But why?
datscilly
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States529 Posts
February 14 2010 02:30 GMT
#6
On February 14 2010 05:41 EmeraldSparks wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Make a pile with coins chosen from piles 1-13 like so:
4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 0
You will get 34x + (up to 4) d

If your answer is within 14 of a multiple of 34, then you know what X is (closest multiple).

Then pile them on like this:
0 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 3 4 3 4 0

Since you know X, you can figure out (up to 4) d. Then depending on if the ratio between these two numbers (up to 4) d is 0, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1/3, 2/3, 1, 4/3, 3/2, 2, 3, 4, or infinity, you can figure out which pile it is in and also d.

If your answer is not within 14 of a multiple of 34, you know that the bad pile is in piles one through eight. Weigh this pile:
0 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 4 4 4 4 4
You now have 36x + (up to 4) d. If your answer is within 15 of a multiple of 36, then you know X, and hence (up to 4) d, and determine the bad pile and d depending if the ratio is 0, 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4, 1/3, 2/3, or 1. This will be the case if the bad pile is in piles one through seven. If your answer is not, then you know it was the eighth pile and now you know both 34X + 4d and 36X + 4d so you can find both X and d this way.


Intense solution! I would like to add that I believe 0 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 3 4 3 4 4 makes more sense and would be correct rather than 0 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 3 4 3 4 0, when doing the second pile.
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
February 14 2010 08:39 GMT
#7
--- Nuked ---
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
February 14 2010 09:13 GMT
#8
For the coins in the fake pile, are all the fake coins identical?
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Phrujbaz
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Netherlands512 Posts
February 14 2010 17:15 GMT
#9
[image loading]
Caution! Future approaching rapidly at a rate of about 60 seconds per minute.
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
February 14 2010 17:54 GMT
#10
--- Nuked ---
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-14 19:11:51
February 14 2010 19:08 GMT
#11
On February 14 2010 18:13 Cambium wrote:
For the coins in the fake pile, are all the fake coins identical?


they're all identically fake, yes (i.e. d is constant)
I should mention I haven't solved this puzzle so if you're looking for confirmation from me, look elsewhere I am looking over EmeraldSparks's solution now screw that TSL is on.. after that although I can tell you that InFdude's is not correct unless I am mistaken -- how do you determine which pile is the fake one?
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
February 16 2010 08:09 GMT
#12
--- Nuked ---
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
February 16 2010 14:50 GMT
#13
No I don't have the answer, and no I didn't make this stuff up =)
Third possibility: it's a puzzle for which I don't know the solution.

Or, to be fair, didn't know. I just now had a chance to look at EmeraldSparks's solution and it seems to be correct, although I haven't checked it extremely rigorously. I am impressed though, that's one hell of a solution, GJ!
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-16 17:37:26
February 16 2010 17:36 GMT
#14
--- Nuked ---
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-16 18:49:33
February 16 2010 18:44 GMT
#15
Ok, we could be a little more polite..

here's a proof of concept solve:

ok
let's say X is 3

and d is 2.5

and pile 11 is fake (aka 5.5 each)

weighing one: 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 1* 1 0
48+36+12+5.5+3=104.5

within 14 of a multiple of 34 (which is 102, 2.5 diff), we know X is 3

weighing two: 0 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 3 4 3* 4 0 = 30+xd

0+3+6+9+3+6+9+12+9+12+5.5*3+12+0=97.5
3*30=90. 97.5-90=7.5

7.5/2.5 = 3, .: pile 11 is the fake pile, .: d=2.5

Which part are you uncertain about?
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
Daigomi
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
South Africa4316 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-07 19:50:53
March 07 2010 14:44 GMT
#16
Once again, excuse the lack of mathematical know how, I'll have to explain things in words once or twice. Also, I'm not sure what an arbitrarily accurate scale means, but I assume it means that they give a weight, but that it's not necessarily in grams. Maybe I missunderstood that, that could explain why.
+ Show Spoiler +
The first step is to find the weights of the items. Since the weight of X is always an integer, it means the final weight will always be 52X + 4d. However, since the limits of d are -5 and 5, it means you can always find out what both X and d are, since the total will only be reachable in one way. For example, if the final weight is 124gs, then X must be 2, and d must be 5. If X was 3, (154), then the final weight couldn't get to 124 even if d was -5. So the first step is to have group 1 be split 2-2, and the rest evenly between 4-0 and 0-4. If the scale is even, then obviously group 1 is the fake group. However, if it is not then you add the two weights to find the total weight of the groups, allowing you to calculate the weight of X and d.

Once you have that, it's a simple process of splitting the groups up. The groups can be divided as follows:

1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
2-1
3-1
0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-2
1-3
2-2

The total weight will now be Full Total Weight - 14X - nd. Since you know what X and d is, you can calculate n, narrowing down the results. if n = 3, then the answer is either 1-0 or 0-1, and you can see which one by looking at which side is the heaviest. If n = 0, it can be either 4-0, 3-1, 1-3, or 0-4. You can now calculate what the difference is between the two sides. The difference will either be 2d or 4d. If it is 2d, then its either 3-1 or 1-3, if it is 4d it is 4-0 or 0-4, depending on which side weighs the most at the end.

I'm fairly sure this solution works if I understand the idea of an arbitrarily accurate scale correctly. If not, then I will have to try again!

EDIT: for some reason I thought the scale had two sides, and gave a weight. I'll come redo it once I get back from watching Alice

EDIT2: EmeraldSparks's solution is damn elegant. Very nice!
Moderator
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
March 08 2010 00:29 GMT
#17
glad you're enjoying the puzzles <3
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
Daigomi
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
South Africa4316 Posts
March 08 2010 09:39 GMT
#18
In the humanities, theres not much that forces you to think, so these puzzles make a nice change
Moderator
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft613
CosmosSc2 57
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm65
League of Legends
Nathanias25
Cuddl3bear9
Super Smash Bros
PPMD117
Other Games
summit1g9402
shahzam624
JimRising 214
PiLiPiLi137
Maynarde131
C9.Mang0126
ToD81
RuFF_SC210
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick711
BasetradeTV111
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 96
• Mapu4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki35
• Pr0nogo 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1749
• Scarra273
Upcoming Events
WardiTV 2025
10h 1m
StarCraft2.fi
14h 1m
PiGosaur Monday
23h 1m
StarCraft2.fi
1d 15h
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
1d 22h
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV 2025
2 days
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
WardiTV 2025
3 days
StarCraft2.fi
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
IPSL
4 days
Sziky vs JDConan
RSL Revival
5 days
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Tarson vs DragOn
Wardi Open
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.