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Solved! The GPU turned out to be the problem. I finally sent it back amidst vocal complaints, and the retailer sent me not just a new one, but a better one from another manufacturer. The computer hasn't even crashed once since then. Thanks for helping me troubleshoot this. It's been months since this nutty ordeal so I'm feeling less homicidal, and in hindsight I did learn a lot from it.
Old post follows.
Update: Final reformat and test as follows:
Set-up in progress:
- Delete partition, format disk
- Install Windows 7 64-bit
- Install LAN drivers
- Disable all audio drivers
- Install Firefox
- Download and install latest (non-beta) HD 7870 drivers
- Custom install - checking everything
- Download and install updates + SP1 + .net 4.0 in Windows Update
- Read a book
- Install driver sweepers (Driver Sweeper & Driver Fusion)
- As anticipated, there was nothing for them to do because it's a clean reformat
- Install a game
- Crash after ~4 minutes of play time
So that just about does it. I physically do not have any extraneous drivers on my system at all (I didn't even set up the USB audio interface so I was playing without sound), and the PC still crashed almost immediately. There's literally nothing more I can do, so I'm talking to the PC repair shop guys past the weekend. Maybe they can at least single out the problem hardware so I don't have to send everything back.
If I ever figure this out, I'll update this thread again. Until then, consider me off the case.
Original post:
My new desktop is experiencing frequent crashes. More information past the info dump.
+ Show Spoiler [PC specs] +- Mainboard: MSI Z77A-GD55 (MS-7751), Socket-1155
- Chipset: Intel Ivy Bridge
- Southbridge: Intel Z77
- CPU: Intel Core i5 3570K Ivy Bridge - 3.4GHz
- Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo
- RAM: (4GB) Crucial DDR3 1333MHz
- GPU: PowerColor HD 7870 2GB GDDR5
- HDD: Western Digital® Desktop Black 2TB
- PSU: Chieftec Super Series 650W PSU
+ Show Spoiler [Software] +- Windows 7 64-bit Ultimate
- Latest versions of all drivers, including:
- AMD Catalyst Version 13.2
- Intel ME Driver 8.1.20.1337
- Intel USB3.0 Driver 1.0.5.235
- Realtek HD Audio Drivers 6.0.1.6793
- Intel® 82579V LAN Drivers
- Worth noting that I have updated everything on this page (MSI mainboard drivers/software) either by downloading the version on that page, or a more recent version found on first party websites (such as the Realtek HD Audio Driver and the LAN Drivers, just to name examples).
Basic information:
My previous GPU died, so I decided to upgrade. Following advice from this forum, I bought a new CPU, GPU, mobo, and cooler.
Hardware and software installation went perfectly. Drivers installed and updated fine, and everything is in the green. The system runs smoothly right up until the crash, including games, where I get the good frame rate and graphical quality you would expect from this rig.
The problem is a sudden black screen while gaming, followed seconds later by a system freeze, forcing a hard reset. It only happens during gaming, across all tested games so far, and usually within five minutes or so, although I have been able to play for ~25 minutes as well. During the black screen, there is still background audio, and I can still briefly communicate with people in Ventrilo, until the entire system freezes a few seconds later. Every crash is the same, with the event log as follows:
+ Show Spoiler [Event Viewer] +Log Name: System Source: Microsoft-Windows-Kernel-Power Date: 04.03.2013 05:27:12 Event ID: 41 Task Category: (63) Level: Critical Keywords: (2) User: SYSTEM Computer: Ozymandias Description: The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly. Event Xml: <Event xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/win/2004/08/events/event"> <System> <Provider Name="Microsoft-Windows-Kernel-Power" Guid="{331C3B3A-2005-44C2-AC5E-77220C37D6B4}" /> <EventID>41</EventID> <Version>2</Version> <Level>1</Level> <Task>63</Task> <Opcode>0</Opcode> <Keywords>0x8000000000000002</Keywords> <TimeCreated SystemTime="2013-03-04T04:27:12.167222200Z" /> <EventRecordID>6176</EventRecordID> <Correlation /> <Execution ProcessID="4" ThreadID="8" /> <Channel>System</Channel> <Computer>Ozymandias</Computer> <Security UserID="S-1-5-18" /> </System> <EventData> <Data Name="BugcheckCode">0</Data> <Data Name="BugcheckParameter1">0x0</Data> <Data Name="BugcheckParameter2">0x0</Data> <Data Name="BugcheckParameter3">0x0</Data> <Data Name="BugcheckParameter4">0x0</Data> <Data Name="SleepInProgress">false</Data> <Data Name="PowerButtonTimestamp">0</Data> </EventData> </Event>
Data is identical for each crash so I'll only include the latest.
- All temperatures (CPU, GPU) remain low and stable - overheating is not the cause
- The crash happens across multiple games (so far every game I've tried, including NS2, CS:GO, TF2)
- The timing is random. Some times it crashes after 2 minutes, some times after 40 (but usually earlier)
- Crashes only happen during gaming
- Black screen makes it impossible to read the BSoD, and I've had problems getting it to make a .dmp file
Troubleshooting:
Doing a Google search showed multiple forum threads around the internet from people with the same problem. The answer was usually along the lines of "EventID 41 Task 63" as well as the 0x80...2 keyword probably indicating a driver issue, or possibly faulty hardware. This gave me little to go on and I could find no solutions, so I started troubleshooting.
I installed the latest drivers of everything I could think of, including GPU and anything that can some times cause problems like LAN and Audio drivers. I updated the mainboard BIOS, and installed all relevant Windows Updates. Even with nothing installed but the preceding, a browser, and a game, the crashes persist.
I ran prime95 for several hours. CPU temperatures remained stable, and CPU-Z showed no problems. Even when I tried it again with a modest overclock of 4.2GHz, CPU temperatures remained at ~57*. (I used the mainboard's own OC Genie button for simple, conservative overclocking to test. No change.)
Expecting a GPU issue from the start, I ran Furmark, and was surprised when it ran for several hours with zero problems. The temperature never went over 70*, and the GPU fan barely broke 50% speed despite the GPU showing upwards of 100% usage. I have also tried to play games with AMD OverDrive both enabled and disabled, no change. I have not overclocked the GPU, and MSI Afterburner is showing no problems.
I also ran both prime95 and Furmark together while I did general things like surfing and listening to music. No problems for over an hour, so I killed the tests.
I ran memtest86+ overnight for something like 37 passes; no errors. Don't know if relevant, but I will post some CPU-Z info regarding RAM:
- Type: DDR3
- Size: 4096 MB
- Channels #: Dual
- DRAM Freq: 666.7MHz
- FSB:DRAM: 1:5
- Max Bandwidth: PC3-10700 (667 MHz)
- Voltage: 1.50V
Adding this info on the off chance that it might be relevant, because my RAM is older than the rest of my hardware. My PSU is also old, but the specs should be sufficient.
- As stated previously, it is probably worth noting that I have updated everything on this page (MSI mainboard drivers/software) either by downloading the version on that page, or a more recent version found on first party websites (such as the Realtek HD Audio Driver and the LAN Drivers, just to name examples).
- I have also systematically deactivated certain drivers that I could live without, to no avail.
- To make sure it only happened during gaming, I played a 9-hour VOD overnight; no problems.
- I have both downgraded and upgraded (to a beta version) the GPU drivers. No change.
- Reformatted and reinstalled twice, yet the problem remains.
- Disconnected/deactivated my audio interface. It's an external audio card for use in music/audio production and has showed no problems on my previous rig, and removing it made no difference.
I have NOT:
- Analyzed or checked the .dmp files because I don't have the utility software to do so, nor do I have any experience in doing this. If someone wants me to do this (preferably because you seriously think it can help), or if someone wants me to upload a .dmp file to Dropbox or whatever so that they can take a look at it, let me know. I don't really know how it could possibly help diagnose the problem beyond what I've already done, however.
- Tried with a 32-bit installation of Windows 7.
- Disconnected/disabled the LAN drivers during gaming.
- Used safe mode and/or a Driver Sweeper software to uninstall/clean drivers and install fresh ones. Please correct me if I'm in error here, but this should have no effect since this is a fresh (reformatted) install of the latest drivers.
- Urinated on the motherboard. Yet.
I want to say it's a hardware issue, but the GPU laughing at every stress test I've thrown at it makes it an uncertain conclusion. Still, the black screen (along with the rest of the system apparently working fine in the background for a few more seconds) seems to indicate a problem with the GPU, in which case I just have to send it in for a new one.
I have reached the end of my knowledge and capabilities. If it's a driver issue it's an incredibly well-concealed one. I have contacted the retailer and I will ask if they want me to send it back so they can test it for themselves, but I doubt they'll load up a game on the system and play it for upwards of 30 minutes. They'll probably just run stress tests, which I have already determined are unproblematic and unhelpful.
In the meantime, I'm chronicling my continued efforts here, and asking anyone if they have any, any idea of what this could be, because I'm likely about to be without a functioning desktop for two weeks.
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I know you've said you've updated the drivers etc and all but that still seems like a driver issue to me, What I'd suggest at least trying is loading in safe mode and removing the drivers with a driver sweep tool or manually then reinstalling them and see if that works. It'd be easier to tell what the issue was if you could post the bsod you're getting for us though.
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On March 04 2013 15:31 Chylith wrote:
I know you've said you've updated the drivers etc and all but that still seems like a driver issue to me, What I'd suggest at least trying is loading in safe mode and removing the drivers with a driver sweep tool or manually then reinstalling them and see if that works.
"Removing the drivers with a driver sweep tool or manually installing them?" Does reformatting the computer three times, installing fresh, and manually installing the absolute latest drivers for everything, count?
Edit: I'm not trying to be sarcastic about this; I'm genuinely asking. I would try this just to have it tested, but I would think that installing the latest drivers that I've downloaded off the internet on a completely fresh system would suffice.
It'd be easier to tell what the issue was if you could post the bsod you're getting for us though.
Tell it to stop black screening, and I would be happy to! 
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If it does bsod and actually creates minidump files, then you can check them with "bluescreenview". Just google it, it's a portable software and very easy to use.
As for stress tests, try some other stuff, not just heat generators such as furmark and occt.
Maybe Heaven benchmark or 3DMark11.
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On March 05 2013 06:48 TJ31 wrote:
If it does bsod and actually creates minidump files, then you can check them with "bluescreenview". Just google it, it's a portable software and very easy to use.
As for stress tests, try some other stuff, not just heat generators such as furmark and occt.
Maybe Heaven benchmark or 3DMark11.
Huh. This is frustrating. It was creating them fine on the last install, but since the reformat, it's not doing it any more. I have it set to create minidumps, but they aren't being generated. I'm not sure what's going on.
I'll try some other GPU stress tests as well, but at this point I'm pretty sure it's either voltage problems with the PSU, or some obscure driver problem. I'm buying a new PSU today. Will see how it goes.
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I didnt see you mention this in your troubleshooting: After testing your CPU with P95 you should check Event Viewer>Custom Views>Administrative Events and look for any WHEA errors during the time period that P95 was run. If you have WHEA errors your CPU may be causing the BSOD. If you have WHEA errors, you can try increasing VCC, Vcore or Vdimm to achieve CPU stability.
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Just tried a different PSU. Same problem, PSU is not the issue.
Fucking hell this is dumb.
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disable automatic restart for the bsod
you can see what the offending driver or system is
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On March 06 2013 10:27 a176 wrote:
disable automatic restart for the bsod
you can see what the offending driver or system is
Already done. Black screen prevents my seeing any BSoD information if it's there, and the system is not creating the minidump for some reason (despite having been specifically set to do so). Confusing mess.
I'm currently screwing around with drivers, disabling/uninstalling/etc, stuff I've been doing all along. So far no change.
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ive read there might be some compatibility issues with sound system. have you tried updating those drivers? enabling/disabling sound hardware as well.
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On March 06 2013 11:23 a176 wrote:
ive read there might be some compatibility issues with sound system. have you tried updating those drivers? enabling/disabling sound hardware as well.
This seriously might end up being a situation of PEBKAC. I disabled these devices ages ago but they weren't properly uninstalled. I removed both the Realtek HD Audio Drivers and the AMD HD Audio thing (no idea why there are two but whatever), clearing them from my system. So far no crashes, but I haven't played long enough (~45 minutes) for it to be conclusive.
If this does turn out to be the reason for the crashes, I'm just gonna consider the money I spent for the new PSU "idiot tax", because I don't deserve to fucking have it anyway.
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Nevermind. Just crashed again. The frustration continues.
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On March 06 2013 12:05 Aylear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 11:23 a176 wrote:
ive read there might be some compatibility issues with sound system. have you tried updating those drivers? enabling/disabling sound hardware as well. This seriously might end up being a situation of PEBKAC. I disabled these devices ages ago but they weren't properly uninstalled. I removed both the Realtek HD Audio Drivers and the AMD HD Audio thing (no idea why there are two but whatever), clearing them from my system. So far no crashes, but I haven't played long enough (~45 minutes) for it to be conclusive. If this does turn out to be the reason for the crashes, I'm just gonna consider the money I spent for the new PSU "idiot tax", because I don't deserve to fucking have it anyway.
amd hd audio drivers are a part of the catalyst suite that amd cards use as their drivers I believe. The realtek audio drivers are the sound drivers for your motherboard's sound. If you still have the amd audio drivers, chances are it means you didn't properly uninstall the old gpu drivers, which is why I told you to try removing and reinstalling them in safe mode with a driver sweeper. I actually had some rather weird problems with my gpu drivers similar(the same?) as yours recently until I wiped them and reinstalled them, butyeah. Try that.
*Edit* Oh yeah, you might wanna list what games you've been trying to play and what settings you have for them, just cause the information could maybe be helpful to someone. ;p And to answer your question from earlier, I'd "assume" reformatting should wipe the drivers too but I can't say for sure and it's I suppose possible that fragments are left in the hd cache even after reformat, but regardless It's something worth trying and seems the most likely issue I can think of anyways.
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On March 06 2013 12:36 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 12:05 Aylear wrote:On March 06 2013 11:23 a176 wrote:
ive read there might be some compatibility issues with sound system. have you tried updating those drivers? enabling/disabling sound hardware as well. This seriously might end up being a situation of PEBKAC. I disabled these devices ages ago but they weren't properly uninstalled. I removed both the Realtek HD Audio Drivers and the AMD HD Audio thing (no idea why there are two but whatever), clearing them from my system. So far no crashes, but I haven't played long enough (~45 minutes) for it to be conclusive. If this does turn out to be the reason for the crashes, I'm just gonna consider the money I spent for the new PSU "idiot tax", because I don't deserve to fucking have it anyway. amd hd audio drivers are a part of the catalyst suite that amd cards use as their drivers I believe. The realtek audio drivers are the sound drivers for your motherboard's sound. If you still have the amd audio drivers, chances are it means you didn't properly uninstall the old gpu drivers, which is why I told you to try removing and reinstalling them in safe mode with a driver sweeper. I actually had some rather weird problems with my gpu drivers similar(the same?) as yours recently until I wiped them and reinstalled them, butyeah. Try that. *Edit* Oh yeah, you might wanna list what games you've been trying to play and what settings you have for them, just cause the information could maybe be helpful to someone. ;p And to answer your question from earlier, I'd "assume" reformatting should wipe the drivers too but I can't say for sure and it's I suppose possible that fragments are left in the hd cache even after reformat, but regardless It's something worth trying and seems the most likely issue I can think of anyways.
I appreciate you trying to help, but this is the second time you've given blanket advice and not read or responded to my comments regarding them. First I mentioned that I have done a complete reinstall (including formatting my HD and installing Windows 7 completely fresh) and installing only the latest drivers so that I have control of what's on my system. You then advised me to uninstall the "old drivers" (that I no longer have on my computer).
Figuring that you had just misread, I asked if using a driver sweeper would even have a point at all if the system was completely fresh, as all it would do is uninstall the drivers I had just installed (completely fresh) so that I could once again install them (but not quite as fresh as when they had never been on my system in the first place).
Then today, after the third reformat, I had forgotten to get rid of the audio drivers. So I cleared them from my system, my computer still crashed, and then you advised me to clear them from my system.
Again. Appreciate you trying to help, but either you're not reading what I'm writing, or I'm misunderstanding you completely.
As for the games, it's crashed on every game I've tried so far (NS2, TF2, CS:GO) exactly the same.
I'm about to embark on the fourth reformat. This time I won't install anything besides Win7, run a driver sweeper, make sure that it's fresh, and then install the latest version of the GPU. I'll make sure there is literally nothing else on the system besides the bare necessities, and I'll try to play a game. If it still crashes, I am officially done, and I'm sending it in to a local PC repair shop tomorrow. They've got the gear and the experience maybe they can figure this out.
On March 06 2013 12:36 Chylith wrote:
*Edit* Oh yeah, you might wanna list what games you've been trying to play and what settings you have for them, just cause the information could maybe be helpful to someone. ;p And to answer your question from earlier, I'd "assume" reformatting should wipe the drivers too but I can't say for sure and it's I suppose possible that fragments are left in the hd cache even after reformat, but regardless It's something worth trying and seems the most likely issue I can think of anyways.
Yeah, it's a new hard drive. I doubt it.
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Set-up in progress:
- Delete partition, format disk
- Install Windows 7 64-bit
- Install LAN drivers
- Disable all audio drivers
- Install Firefox
- Download and install latest (non-beta) HD 7870 drivers
- Custom install - checking everything
- Download and install updates + SP1 + .net 4.0 in Windows Update
- Read a book
- Install driver sweepers (Driver Sweeper & Driver Fusion)
- As anticipated, there was nothing for them to do because it's a clean reformat
- Install a game
- Crash after ~4 minutes of play time
So that just about does it. I physically do not have any extraneous drivers on my system at all (I didn't even set up the USB audio interface so I was playing without sound), and the PC still crashed almost immediately. There's literally nothing more I can do, so I'm talking to the PC repair shop guys past the weekend. Maybe they can at least single out the problem hardware so I don't have to send everything back.
If I ever figure this out, I'll update this thread again. Until then, consider me off the case.
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I hope it's a good book!
Some cards throttle when they detect furmark running, so an alternative gpu test would be a good step to take. Maybe monitor temperatures during game operation, check they don't get out of hand every 10 minutes with a very brief alt-tab to check temperature peaks.
My battlefield 3 crashes my computer a lot (straight to power off, no bsod), no other stress test can replicate the result, these things happen.
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On March 06 2013 14:51 Aylear wrote:
There's literally nothing more I can do, so I'm talking to the PC repair shop guys past the weekend. Maybe they can at least single out the problem hardware so I don't have to send everything back.
If I ever figure this out, I'll update this thread again. Until then, consider me off the case.
Gl, hope they will find the problem.
I'm pretty sure it's the GPU though. Well, there's a very small chance it's a mobo, but GPUs fail much more often.
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On March 07 2013 15:30 TJ31 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 14:51 Aylear wrote:
There's literally nothing more I can do, so I'm talking to the PC repair shop guys past the weekend. Maybe they can at least single out the problem hardware so I don't have to send everything back.
If I ever figure this out, I'll update this thread again. Until then, consider me off the case. Gl, hope they will find the problem. I'm pretty sure it's the GPU though. Well, there's a very small chance it's a mobo, but GPUs fail much more often.
Thanks, yeah, I'm hoping. Considering how well the GPU has performed during stress tests, and considering the retailer said they've had very, very few returns on the GPU, I'm actually inclined to believe the motherboard may be at fault. I wouldn't even go there if I hadn't already ruled out so many other things.
This has been an incredibly frustrating week and a half.
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Update:
1) I found a recent Steam game that doesn't crash my computer, namely Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition 2012. I do not know why. I ran it for several hours and everything was fine, so whatever is causing the crash, SSF4 does not have it.
2) Realizing that SSF4 wasn't crashing my PC, I tested once again with Natural Selection 2. Sure enough, it crashed in short order, and something new happened: it took out my modem. The rest of the computers on the network (including my netbook) lost connection and I had to wait for the modem to re-establish a connection. This sounds an awful lot like a power surge, some kind of voltage problem, because a regular crash doesn't break the network. This has happened a few times now.
At least it's another data point, but I'm still not sure what the problem is.
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EPT
