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Sleeper Cell Mafia II

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 22 2012 01:11 GMT
#57
No invite. :sad:
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 00:24 GMT
#115
On January 26 2012 04:12 bumatlarge wrote:
By the by, if I get lynched day 1 and I flip DT, please don't ignore my reads

I don't think Ace is playing.

Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 03:35 GMT
#133
On January 26 2012 12:22 Radfield wrote:
/confirm

Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues.



First things first, please do not do this. Consider: Mafia do not know who their partners are. Therefore, high up on the priority list of the mafia is figuring out who the other members are. We need to not let this happen easily. The mafia have access to several pieces of information we do not, most specifically the number of mafia in the game. Players popping out and saying they think there are X amount of mafia are immediately getting a note in my scum book. Why? It's one way for a mafia player to indicate he is mafia to the rest of the crew, without raising suspicion. Makes sense? So no speculation on mafia numbers please, at least not right now.

Second, mafia have very limited forms of communication this game, and from the looks of the Inception agent role, we can assume that town has some way to view their messages. This means mafia have to be extremely careful with what they write, so blatant things like lets kill X tomorrow are probably out. So mafia need a means to try to indicate to their brethren who should be getting hit. Imagine I am scum, I want to make sure that my buddies don't accidently send in hits on players I think are scummy, I want them to send in the hits on people I think seem like sure town. So what am I going to do? I'm going to repeatedly hammer it home in thread that I think Player Z is sure town. If there is general consensus among the group that player Z is town, he is a great target for mafia to lump in on.

We need to ensure this does not happen. Therefore I propose that NO ONE call anyone else town. Players are either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, OR not scum. That is all. If you think someone is almost for sure town, you still just have to call them 'not scum'.

Benefits: Stops mafia from finding clear night-kill targets, and increases the chance of them shooting themselves.

Cons: Possibly leaves us low on town leaders. Certain players may spend too much time going after obvious townies.

Likewise, we should not be making medic lists. If you think a particular player should receive protection, that's probably cool, but no listing 3 or 4 people. In this game, that's just giving mafia a clear list of targets to shoot at, which is exactly what they need(a list). Medics in this scenario should be protecting whomever is most likely to die anyways, as there is no WIFOMing your medic protect around.

Third, and this is straight out of resistance mafia, no talking about mafia strats. We simply do not talk about optimal mafia moves, or likely moves, as that is simply a way for mafia to galvanize their actions together. In a game with minimal mafia interaction, we need to ensure that they cannot use the thread to disseminate information

So this game we talk about townie strats and townie moves, not mafia ones. On the flip side we do not call people likely town or town, we call them not scum or varying degrees of scum. Thoughts? Agreement or Disagreement?

Nice post. Wtf is that booger doing in the middle of it?
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 03:57 GMT
#136
On January 26 2012 12:46 Navillus wrote:
I agree with Radfield though I wish you hadn't mentioned the possibility of the inception agent seeing their messages, I agree that they probably would realize that but now they know for sure, and usually I say assume mafia is playing optimally but this is different because any noob scums aren't in communication to vet scums and so might have slipped up. Obviously we can't not talk about what mafia is likely to do at all though so basically I'm saying just be very careful with what you post about what we might have/do and they might have/do, and people who post a lot about that are very suspicious as that would be an easy way to transfer info.

We can not by whatever we heard them do.


Having played in the first one all the scum will have a pretty good grasp as to who their teammates are by day 3. This is simply another game of mafia. We have a slight advantage over scum on day 1 and 2. Then it's about the same as any other game. Bear in mind scum won the first one. But Ace isn't in this game so I don't really see the same results occurring again.
If anybody claims super spy lynch them.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 04:05 GMT
#138
On January 26 2012 12:57 Radfield wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 12:35 Jackal58 wrote:
On January 26 2012 12:22 Radfield wrote:
/confirm

On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues.



First things first, please do not do this. Consider: Mafia do not know who their partners are. Therefore, high up on the priority list of the mafia is figuring out who the other members are. We need to not let this happen easily. The mafia have access to several pieces of information we do not, most specifically the number of mafia in the game. Players popping out and saying they think there are X amount of mafia are immediately getting a note in my scum book. Why? It's one way for a mafia player to indicate he is mafia to the rest of the crew, without raising suspicion. Makes sense? So no speculation on mafia numbers please, at least not right now.

Second, mafia have very limited forms of communication this game, and from the looks of the Inception agent role, we can assume that town has some way to view their messages. This means mafia have to be extremely careful with what they write, so blatant things like lets kill X tomorrow are probably out. So mafia need a means to try to indicate to their brethren who should be getting hit. Imagine I am scum, I want to make sure that my buddies don't accidently send in hits on players I think are scummy, I want them to send in the hits on people I think seem like sure town. So what am I going to do? I'm going to repeatedly hammer it home in thread that I think Player Z is sure town. If there is general consensus among the group that player Z is town, he is a great target for mafia to lump in on.

We need to ensure this does not happen. Therefore I propose that NO ONE call anyone else town. Players are either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, OR not scum. That is all. If you think someone is almost for sure town, you still just have to call them 'not scum'.

Benefits: Stops mafia from finding clear night-kill targets, and increases the chance of them shooting themselves.

Cons: Possibly leaves us low on town leaders. Certain players may spend too much time going after obvious townies.

Likewise, we should not be making medic lists. If you think a particular player should receive protection, that's probably cool, but no listing 3 or 4 people. In this game, that's just giving mafia a clear list of targets to shoot at, which is exactly what they need(a list). Medics in this scenario should be protecting whomever is most likely to die anyways, as there is no WIFOMing your medic protect around.

Third, and this is straight out of resistance mafia, no talking about mafia strats. We simply do not talk about optimal mafia moves, or likely moves, as that is simply a way for mafia to galvanize their actions together. In a game with minimal mafia interaction, we need to ensure that they cannot use the thread to disseminate information

So this game we talk about townie strats and townie moves, not mafia ones. On the flip side we do not call people likely town or town, we call them not scum or varying degrees of scum. Thoughts? Agreement or Disagreement?

Nice post. Wtf is that booger doing in the middle of it?


Not sure I follow. The idea is that you shouldn't be calling anyone town or probably town. You should either call them scummy(or some degree of scummy) or 'Not Scum'. ie: Don't reveal the degree to which you think someone is town, as that is a way for mafia to communicate, and a way for mafia to galvanize their hits onto townies.

Or were you asking something else?

Alright let's do it this way. I'm not going to say this is stupid. I'm going to say it's very smart, kinda smart, smart, or not smart at all. Dude this is fucking stupid.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 13:47 GMT
#193
I agree with the assertion that we shouldn't label somebody as definite town. I disagree with Radfields ploy of calling town "not scum" That's what I called stupid. And I stand by that. It's stupid. It's a semantics game.

redFF- Why do you call Radfield town in your first post and then vote him in your second? Wtf is up with that? I have no problem with voting Rad - I got scum vibes from his first post - but what you did red looks like you're trying to talk to a scumbuddy.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 17:08 GMT
#234
On January 27 2012 01:56 Radfield wrote:
You have to be joking Cwave -_-

On the bright side, Cwave was kinda bad during election mafia too(he tunneled me all game), and threw around pretty random accusations. Tragically it's par for the course so far.

Very possible his 5 words thing is a scum-slip, but also possible that he pulled it from hesmyrr's post as he said.


Jackal, I'd like to see you post at least 5 or 6 more times during Day1.

You gonna number them for me?
I don't know why you guys are voting for Cwave. He's right. That doesn't mean Radfield is scum but Cwave is correct in that if he is Radfield is slowly assembling parts of a key. And Radfield probably is scum.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 19:09 GMT
#242
On January 27 2012 02:13 Radfield wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 02:08 Jackal58 wrote:
On January 27 2012 01:56 Radfield wrote:
You have to be joking Cwave -_-

On the bright side, Cwave was kinda bad during election mafia too(he tunneled me all game), and threw around pretty random accusations. Tragically it's par for the course so far.

Very possible his 5 words thing is a scum-slip, but also possible that he pulled it from hesmyrr's post as he said.


Jackal, I'd like to see you post at least 5 or 6 more times during Day1.

You gonna number them for me?
I don't know why you guys are voting for Cwave. He's right. That doesn't mean Radfield is scum but Cwave is correct in that if he is Radfield is slowly assembling parts of a key. And Radfield probably is scum.


Yeah I can keep track if you like :D

You have a tendency to coast as scum. This is something you surely agree with. I'd like to see you not coast.


Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 01:57 Hesmyrr wrote:
Cwave is silly, but he feels town (I know I know but seriously mafia will not NK VI) not scum. Waited a little to see how people would react. Blazinghand, you said "Your criticisms of him are unsupported which is not like you". Can you explain that further using the meta? Also not sure if redFF is serious.


Agreed. Blazinghand what other games have you played with Cwave?

This would be 2
So you don't want to call people townies but it's ok to agree with people that call others townies????? Apparently townie is good to go?
I think Cwave is one of the good guys (read townie) and you're continuing to contradict yourself.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 19:33 GMT
#245
On January 27 2012 04:25 Zephirdd wrote:
Let me summarize the plan for you guys.

Don't worry about semantics, just try to not create leaders. This way scum won't have a solid target.

Why is it so hard to understand something that simple?

If you decide to push for the lynch of somebody I don't believe is scummy and I argue against it am I not calling that person town in my eyes?
Is this "plan" merely a way for scum to get town to sheep along with them?
This plan isn't a plan at all. It was stupid last night when I was drunk and it's just as stupid today while I am sober.
Scum will pick and choose their targets the way scum always pick and choose their targets. And if they decide to shoot me because I'm acting "too townie" so be it. I've done my fucking job now haven't I?

I have no problems with a lynch of either Zephridd or Radfield at this point in time.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 19:34 GMT
#247
On January 27 2012 04:34 GGQ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 04:25 Zephirdd wrote:
Let me summarize the plan for you guys.

Don't worry about semantics, just try to not create leaders. This way scum won't have a solid target.

Why is it so hard to understand something that simple?


<3

And there is another one.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 26 2012 20:46 GMT
#256
On January 27 2012 05:03 Zephirdd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 04:33 Jackal58 wrote:
On January 27 2012 04:25 Zephirdd wrote:
Let me summarize the plan for you guys.

Don't worry about semantics, just try to not create leaders. This way scum won't have a solid target.

Why is it so hard to understand something that simple?

If you decide to push for the lynch of somebody I don't believe is scummy and I argue against it am I not calling that person town in my eyes?
Is this "plan" merely a way for scum to get town to sheep along with them?
This plan isn't a plan at all. It was stupid last night when I was drunk and it's just as stupid today while I am sober.
Scum will pick and choose their targets the way scum always pick and choose their targets. And if they decide to shoot me because I'm acting "too townie" so be it. I've done my fucking job now haven't I?

I have no problems with a lynch of either Zephridd or Radfield at this point in time.


Let me exemplify what he means, as it seems you couldn't understand from his last example.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&currentpage=15#287

This is what should not be done. Go ahead, defend someone and call him town(or "not scum"), that's not a problem. The problem would be to throw "this guy is town" left and right on the thread. The problem would be to say "Since this guy is saying this, then I trust him" instead of making your own analysis.

Come on, he basically asks us to not create useful lists and to not sheep. I do agree that his choice of wording is horrible, but that's what I can get from it. It's simple, really.

Pfffftttt. Like I'd ever type anything that long.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 00:51 GMT
#273
On January 27 2012 07:55 bumatlarge wrote:
And on that note, it's no where near certain that cwave slipped, he just might have done his homework.

(from last game)
Show nested quote +
CELL LEADER:
Your entire life has been devoted to running your tiny cell of agents. The time has come to put them into action. You know the names of all other Agents. You always returns "Insufficient Information for Analysis" to investigations. Each night, you will recieve a list of agents and their votes. In the event of a TIE in voting, or if ALL nominations are agents, you may cast tiebreaking vote. In the event of death, flips Cell Leader and a new Cell Leader is chosen by RNG between remaining Agents. You may send a message consisting of 5 words or 20 characters to any agent at dawn and dusk of each day. Submit it like a normal action. The message can't contain the name of any player. The message is PM'd to both myself and chaoser. We will send it to the player you specify. Cute attempts to get around the "No Names" rule or the word/char limit will result in the message being "lost". Feel free to crumb, just don't put the name (or any form of the name) in there. If all agents are dead, you may choose each kill.


iGrok didn't put this in the OP so it is very possible this role isn't in the game, or at least it functions very differently.

It appears to not be in play. The OP states they each send a message and they each receive all broadcasts. It still appears to me that Radfield was breadcrumbing info in his post regarding More scum Less scum. I can think of no other reason to state that the way he did.

##VOTE: Radfield.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 01:26 GMT
#275
On January 27 2012 10:16 Zephirdd wrote:
Jackal, you do realize that you need to post that on the voting thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306315

right?

Sorry. Too many tabs open. I didn't hit post. Thanks.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 14:16 GMT
#290
On January 27 2012 23:04 Radfield wrote:
Yeah, I think Cwave is a bad lynch right now. I also think Navillus is a poor lynch, his posting doesn't strike me as scummy.

Show nested quote +
Wigles Wrote: Yes, because mafia can't use abbreviated language unless someone posts a public key, which you did. If you had just posted with the same letters or numbers, then it's no longer a key that can be used to shorten scum communications. Now they just went from only having a binary designation, to having gradations to communicate their reads to their team, which isn't exactly useful for the town.


You're right, and I kinda wish I hadn't posted that. However I doubt it will be particularly useful for mafia. The only reason I posted it in the first place was to try and illustrate my point, which several people thought(and still think!) was just about semantics.

Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 09:51 Jackal58 wrote:
It appears to not be in play. The OP states they each send a message and they each receive all broadcasts. It still appears to me that Radfield was breadcrumbing info in his post regarding More scum Less scum. I can think of no other reason to state that the way he did.

##VOTE: Radfield.


Can you please point out what you're talking about? I'm worried that you're still talking about this paragraph:

Show nested quote +

We need to ensure this does not happen. Therefore I propose that NO ONE call anyone else town. Players are either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, OR not scum. That is all. If you think someone is almost for sure town, you still just have to call them 'not scum'.


Do you honestly not understand the point I was trying to make? And where is the so called breadcrumb in this post? And to what effect?

Are you for real? Do you not understand how this game works? Of course you understand how this game works. It is day 1. Scum are clueless until their first messages are sent. I understand exactly what you were saying. But the way you say it is like a fucking beacon. Why did you feel compelled to create new terminology for "town". It makes no fucking sense unless you want to put out a post that is absolutely incapable of being missed by the other agents. You're scum.


And just so there is no misunderstanding I understand exactly what your "plan" (It's not really a plan it's common sense) is doing. No I have no issue with the premise you put forth regarding calling out our town reads. It's the invented terminology you created to do it. It's bullshit. There was no reason for it except to give you an unambiguous means to message your fellow sleeper agents. And trust me. I will not be calling you "not scum" anytime soon. You need to die today.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 16:49 GMT
#308
On January 27 2012 23:31 Radfield wrote:
The more I think about this Jackal, the more I think you're being deliberately obtuse. You've slowly been ramping up to this point(that I must be scum), yet with no reason to do so.

You're stating that I'm am absolutely scum, when there is basically zero reason for you to think that. You are also deliberately refusing to adequately explain yourself, because that would show your entire point to be invalid.


In what way am I being obtuse?
In what way is assigning varying degrees of scumminess useful?
In what way have I not adequately explained myself?
You're scum. Die.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 16:50 GMT
#309
On January 28 2012 01:25 Blazinghand wrote:
I legitimately spent some time not calling out Meapak just to see how long he'd lurk without being called out. It turns out that amount of time is "literally more than a day". He's going to come back and tell us how he was busy, he needs to catch up on the thread, etc, and then he's gonna try to half-ass some analysis out close enough to the deadline that it won't change anything then comfortably lodge himself into a wagon.

Except instead we're gonna hang him

I can live with this too. But Radfield is scum.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 20:07 GMT
#327
On January 28 2012 03:39 Radfield wrote:
You're either being obtuse by refusing to explain to me why you think I am scum, or I suppose I am obtuse for failing to understand where you have laid out your problems.

Assigning varying degrees of scumminess is ALWAYS useful. It happens every game, and I don't understand how you can object to it. Lets say I have 4 players I think are scum, obviously I don't think they are equally likely to be scum. They all have degrees of scumminess, and I'm going to indicate that when I post my reads. What are you even arguing here?

Can someone else please explain to me what Jackal is objecting to, because I really don't see it(or understand it).

Dammit man. It's not what you said. It's the language you used. Scum need a means to identify each other through their messaging. Your one little line of scumminess is in my mind a means of communication. There was absolutely no reason for the way you worded that. It served no purpose. It conveyed no meaning that "Don't call others town" would not have. Sorry but I can see no reason for inventing a scummy scale that basically says town or not town other than as a reference to use in your anonymous messaging to your teammates.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 20:45 GMT
#331
On January 28 2012 05:17 Radfield wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 05:07 Jackal58 wrote:
On January 28 2012 03:39 Radfield wrote:
You're either being obtuse by refusing to explain to me why you think I am scum, or I suppose I am obtuse for failing to understand where you have laid out your problems.

Assigning varying degrees of scumminess is ALWAYS useful. It happens every game, and I don't understand how you can object to it. Lets say I have 4 players I think are scum, obviously I don't think they are equally likely to be scum. They all have degrees of scumminess, and I'm going to indicate that when I post my reads. What are you even arguing here?

Can someone else please explain to me what Jackal is objecting to, because I really don't see it(or understand it).

Dammit man. It's not what you said. It's the language you used. Scum need a means to identify each other through their messaging. Your one little line of scumminess is in my mind a means of communication. There was absolutely no reason for the way you worded that. It served no purpose. It conveyed no meaning that "Don't call others town" would not have. Sorry but I can see no reason for inventing a scummy scale that basically says town or not town other than as a reference to use in your anonymous messaging to your teammates.



That makes much more sense, and actually gives me an idea to why the line put you off. Realize that I probably spent about 3 seconds writing that line.

I disagree that the line "don't call others town" would have done the same purpose. It likely would have for some people, but look at the sheer volume of people who misunderstood my post, DESPITE me putting in the extra examples, etc. I strive for clarity in my posts(and I obviously failed hard with that one) and I tried to make my point crystal clear. That is the reason that line exists. It's not a code, it's not a breadcrumb, it's just an example in an effort to illustrate my point.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look, just forget about that, and take my posting as a whole. If you still feel like this is somehow scum-radfield, then fine, but please don't vote me on the basis of one throw-away line - A throw away line that no one else(that i can tell) even finds scummy.

For what it's worth people posting pictures put me off as well. Scum are forced to use this thread to identify and communicate with each other.
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 27 2012 23:34 GMT
#368
Was the scum team allowed to send out their first messages with the first day post?
Life can only kill you once.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
January 28 2012 13:55 GMT
#452
Fuck.
Life can only kill you once.
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