EPTWill try my best to spread love, sunshine and puppy dogs. And post less.
Pick Your Power Mafia 2!
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citi.zen
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Will try my best to spread love, sunshine and puppy dogs. And post less. | ||
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citi.zen
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On August 21 2010 07:33 chaoser wrote: there's a difference between saying there's probably 4 (assumption) and mafia has 4 (definite). Either way, we need a day 1 lynch, he could be it. Based on that? Nah. He's a good player, no need to kill him before the game even started. Remember, sunshine & puppy dogs! | ||
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On August 21 2010 07:53 Bill Murray wrote: @Radfield, quit being unhelpful claim your number, and pick it yourself. If you do not claim your number previously to picking it, I'm going to be pushing for your lynch. Everyone claim their numbers. chaoser:4 Pandain:6 Bill:7 hahaha - yeah seriously Radfield, try to help a little bit man, wtf is this?!? On the public announcement of numbers: I am more comfortable with a random-ish order that comes from everyone doing their own picking. I fear that if everyone claims their number right now we'll be stuck in number picking wifom land forever. | ||
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On May 11 2010 12:52 Ace wrote: There are a ton of fun roles I would use but I just don't trust people ^_^. No one picked Mason(big mistake), SK got Floridian (perfect pick for SK) and no one saw that coming, no bulletproof(luckily Scum didn't get this), and Pardoner dropped all the way to the end (wtf?!). Zona made a good point, you have roles you want to deny to the Mafia but there are roles you absolutely need. Compulsive Vigilante isn't even that dangerous when compared to Bulletproof Scum avoiding SK hits, Scum Pardoners that can argue, and Scum that takes Tracker and starts framing everyone. I also urge you not to tell the mafia the numbers you are picking: it does not help the town in the least bit; if we overlap the draft order changes but we can stick to the same plan. I am not sure I see how it 100% helps the mafia or sk, but it might, so just don't do it. Pick randomly and privately, then we decide where we go from there. | ||
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On August 21 2010 20:46 Radfield wrote: I just realized why this is a very, very bad plan if everyone doesn't go along with it. By everyone publicly stating their numbers, it makes it extremely easy for mafia to somwhat rig the draft to their liking. After looking at the plan I proposed, mafia realize that it would be very beneficial for them to hold the number 3 draft spot(prince of darkness). Lets also say that LSB (the 5th pick) is mafia. So the mafia would have two other players double up numbers with rastaban and chaoser, and voila, mafia have pick number 3. Of course, if everyone declares their numbers, we can easily track who didn't land in the proper spots, who doubled up, and who benefited from the new draft order. We could pinpoint mafia fairly easy. BUT, if some people don't tell us their numbers, or RNG, or don't check the thread again, then it becomes much more difficult to pinpoint the mafia, and lets them manipulate the draft as they see fit. This gives us two options: we put pressure on the last 8 players to reveal their numbers, or we scrap the plan and all resend our numbers. At this point it makes sense to simply carry on with our number picking. I hope this makes sense to the folks who haven't sent in numbers yet. I am fine with your plan to prioritize some roles. However, you are not confirmed town right now. You should not make up the list with exactly who gets what role: as you yourself said, it makes no difference if a particular townie picks first or last. Please drop the public number claiming. | ||
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On August 22 2010 00:33 Pandain wrote: Heck no, we need to do this to ensure 1. We get good roles 2. we get comp vigi. The only good thing about your plan is really that it makes it so mafia is unsure as to who will pick what. doesn't really matter, as people are claiming roles. Again, i don't see how you being mafia will even hurt it, as your plan is solid and only hurts the mafia. Again, we have bullet bill. If someone picks a non designated role, their mafia. You have no control over who picks what, only what they pick. And as long as the town agrees, we have no worries over that. Also, fun suscipision time.(just for bragging rights in case i'm right.) + Show Spoiler + Out of these 3, one is innocent, 50% chance one is mafia, and 1 is mafia. Divinek Citizen Darth Just speculation fella's.  1. It doesn't. 2. I still think comp vigi needs to by day 1 lynch. If it's me I'll gladly offer myself for that. | ||
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On August 22 2010 02:31 DarthThienAn wrote: That makes a lot more sense then. I was assuming that you were saying use ONLY this number plan and then do whatever for picks... The only other thing on my mind now is that, though this plan lets us find scum that double up, it also allows scum to know what everyone is picking. But hmm... I guess if they sacrifice a mafia player by doubling up in order to get a role, that's actually worth it. Perhaps I am dense, but here are some concerns: 1. We have no reason to think the mafia get lower numbers using this method. I have no idea of anyone's alignment on that list. 2. A mafia with a "pro-town" role can screw us up forever. A dt can claim anything about their sanity. A tracker can frame anyone. These roles are by no means "useless to the mafia", on the contrary. 3. I HATE the thought that the mafia will have a very easy time sniping blues, and may even reserve desired roles for themselves through an assured draft order & influencing the dicussion of who picks what. 4. Why are we not even discussing lynching the comp vig? It lowers the numer of dead people each night, which as far as I can tell helps the town have more time to figure things out. So no, I will not follow Bill Murray and Pandain's request to announce anything at this time. | ||
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On August 22 2010 09:16 Radfield wrote: I agree with Citizen and Siniquity here. There is simply no benefit to having public numbers. Lets stick with hidden numbers. Sinquity, we could have another pick slightly lower down (#2-5) also take Comp Vig. This would double check that the first player actually did take the CV role. We could also add in a percentage for taking CV in the 4-6 slots instead. Citizen, the reason I would be against lynching the CV on day 1, is that the role doesn't hurt us until late game. As long as the CV follows orders, we get a double lynch each day. A double lynch is always advantageous for town, as it means we get to kill off 2 people each day/night cycle instead of 1. Without the CV role, Mafia/SK have a KP of 2, we have a KP of 1. With the CV role, Mafia/SK have a KP of 2, we have a KP of 2. Big benefit for town. At some point the CV becomes a liability(if we keep mislynching), but at the start of the game, a CV following orders is a plus for the town. If the CV ever doesn't shoot the proper player, then we lynch the CV, and the player who was supposed to get hit. Interesting, I see it as exactly the opposite: the CV hurts us early on, but may be helpful later. The CV's KP = shots in the dark early on, most likely we will kill townies and end the game faster, the SK and mafia should love it. Now, late game, when we may have more information, an extra KP could be quite helpful. So to me the question is whether it is worth killing 1-2 probable townies nights 2 and 3 so we have an extra KP later on, and hope we can use it wisely. Also note that the comp vigi KP isn't quite the same as a lynching: it can't kill the SK or any bullet proof role. These are issues if we have a town-aligned CV. If this is a mafia role it's a lot more dangerous. So it is very much unclear to me that this role is overall helpful for the town. Alternatively, as someone else mentioned either here or in the prior PYP game, we could role-block them until we are ready to use them. Of course, this assumes we'd have a role blocker. | ||
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That said, since the killing only starts night 2 I guess there's no reason to make a decision now. Let's see where we are then. | ||
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Part of me likes the idea of trying to make sure we get the right roles. Based on last game it's pretty clear good roles often get overlooked. However, having a public roles list also make me nervous. I know this is a probabilistic list, but it still makes sniping very easy after a few days, when more information is available about who picked what. Also, I can't shake the feeling that this plan is most helpful to the SK. It's one thing to be looking for the investigative roles in the whole population and another to start by killing #7, #10 and #13 to be pretty certain you've killed bullet bill. Especially if the medics follow this advice: This plan however, leaves slots 14-20 as quite vulnerable to hits from both the SK and the Mafia. Therefore, our medics need to be protecting these slots(as well as the CV slot) to increase the chances of blocking a hit. Spots 2-4 don't really matter if they die, spots 5-13 have a decent shot at having a defensive role. Without bullet bill the SK is pretty comfortable: immune to night hits or comp vigi, showing up as town aligned to checks, etc. | ||
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On August 23 2010 11:33 Pandain wrote: Before I clicked "more random numbers", I said to myself I would actually go with whatever it decided. So despite the fact I kept on saying "I'm gonna be mason" I will only do so if it lays within 6-10. Sending in my role. Also, Citizen, are you saying that all the SK has to do is kill the bullet bill and then he can go safely? (besides role cop at first) Just want to know what your saying before I respond. I thin the SK's primary concern are bullet bill and the tracker. The meth man is a threat as well, as Radfiled pointed out above. From the town's perspective bullet bill is an awesome role & the top priority to grab and keep protected I would think. Should anyone care, I picked [18][1]. | ||
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Some concerns: 1. "Reserved" roles. Lower drafting mafia (and the SK, for that matter) can take whatever role they want and claim they didn't get any role. For example, grab any of Pardoner / Floridian(great for SK) / Role Blocker / God Father then say "uhhh... I went for a defensive role but it was taken". I know Radfield said he's not too concerned with these roles, but to me they are a HUGE deal late game - think of all the missed lynches we can have. They are, after all, in the game to help the mafia. It's true that in principle we could verify "plain vanilla" claims, but in reality sorting it out will take too long & the mafia can always justify their claim based on how dead people flipped. So all these roles are too safe for the mafia to grab for my liking. 2. Blue sniping. The list still makes finding investigative roles quite easy once the lynchings start. Once the meth man is dead th SK can get a very clear hit list with likely bullet bill and the tracker candidates. I cannot emphasize this enough: once the drafting phase is over, don't start claiming your roles in the thread unless yo are 100% sure it leads to catching a liar. You might think claiming what you got or didn't get does you no harm, but remember it will also reveal information about other players. 3. The list. For me there are two key town investigative roles: bullet bill and tracker. These are great roles to find mafia and the only ones to detect the SK. The alignment cop is also important, but given their uncertain sanity + inability to detect SK/GF it's a lot weaker in my book. I'd suggest prioritizing bullet bill over all other investigative roles, placing tracker next on our list and leaving the alignment cop for last. Finally, please don't just feel like you are doing your job at this stage by using an RNG and calling it a day. Help us improve this plan by thinking critically, or we'll be screwed later on. | ||
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On August 24 2010 01:22 Radfield wrote: Why are you ignoring the plan? It's like you're determined to be hard-headed about this "game hasn't started" business. Let me quote Ace for you "The game has now officially started!" Either post why you think the plan has flaws so we can iron them out, like citizen is doing, or help out by coming up with something else. Don't make excuses for why you're not helping. Citizen, I have more to say to address and expand on your concerns, I just don't have the time right now. Also, People may need to send in new roles to Ace since the drafting order has changed. I just realized that any "list" suggestions made today look like I am trying to shift roles around now that I know the draft order, something nobody would have any reason to trust at this point. So, while I continue to have my reservations, I don't know that we can do much at this point. Ideally there would be some threat of picking pro-mafia roles at some point (could also nicely "bisect" the list into two sub-sets so we'd know where the mafia roles likely hide) + the bullet bill and tracker would be higher priority. At this point it probably is what it is though. | ||
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