• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:48
CEST 15:48
KST 22:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash8[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy12ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple5Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research3Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool49Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win4
StarCraft 2
General
What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
Mutation # 519 Inner Power The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: SoulKey vs Ample ASL21 General Discussion RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro24 Group E [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group D [ASL21] Ro24 Group C
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2896 users

Has flash solved TvZ?

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
cas
Profile Joined January 2008
Mexico52 Posts
March 03 2009 06:51 GMT
#1
Flash has not lost at TvZ on a bio-optimal map (128x, <= 4players, 5 matrix choke, non-retarded layout) since like November, going 18-0 or something equally ridiculous.

Here are the requirements: 280 apm broken down into 80 macro and 200 micro, all of which are fully needed for a quality implementation of SK should it come to that. Adaptability for when the improbable but inevitable happens. Lose nothing unnecessarily. Chinese triangles.

Here is the build: B, C (plant on site), bunk if needed, B, R, acad, ebay, and then develop in a linear fashion up to facility with no dropship. If zerg goes 3 bases, go SK, delaying 2nd ebay and/or irrad if needed to comfortably exceed the zerg's hive output with raw vessel count - losing the first vessel and then having 3 of them vs 4 defilers is a bad thing. If zerg goes 3 base lurker in an attempt to stall, get two tanks and come out and win, only slower. If zerg goes 4 bases, move out with 3T 1V and triangle and win. If zerg 2hatches, deal with it.

Why the build dominates: Twin scanners allow for a perfect read nullifying any direct mutabal variant. You have a hard counter for 4 base zerg (build order win). If the zerg goes 3 bases, you will eventually win via SK. Power and tech = stage and advance with twin vessels. Power and mass = 2 tanks if lurker else stage and advance on his 3rd. Mass and tech = stage and advance on his main with triangle and defiler snipe. If the zerg goes 2 bases, no amount of mechanics should allow him to overpower you without control errors on your part.

Here are the zerg options. I will disregard obvious junk builds (3 base hydra/lurker, retard drop variants etc.):

9 pool burrow rush to delay CC plant and subsequent 2nd scanner -> 2 hatch 1.05 lurker ling. Cut the scouting scvs with rapidity (which will be almost impossible), and you better not be on SinChup if you try this. Attack the front. GL.

10 speedling runby. The delayed hive puts zerg in a position where they are faced with, at best, vessel domination over hive. 4 base is an autoloss, in an even more brutal fashion than normally. More mutas are met with even more turrets and rapidly upgraded marines and the zerg is left with, again, vessel domination over hive. Kill 4 workers or gg.

1.05 2 hatch speedling -> mutabal with grades. Luxury played this recently with good results (in relative terms). The order shows promise, except for on maps like SinChup where it's just impossible to win. Z has to kill the initial scouting scv quickly and then cut the next one enroute. With perfect control it's arguable that this is a strong order, possibly the only order, as the zerg can reduce the Terran to his main as the minerals are not available for a 2nd bunker by default, and on a map like Andro, if the Z can dramatically reduce marine count he has the option to mutaling allin to siege the barracks directly, or to drone and take a 3rd and lurker siege. This would force T to choose between an allin 2nd wave or to develop and take his chances vs guards with merely competitive vessel numbers.

Old school JulyZerg. See above, but easier.

3 hatch mutabal -> guards. See the Mah replay.

5pool. Use it.
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51571 Posts
March 03 2009 06:55 GMT
#2
is this a joke or something.

i believe bisu solved pvz two years ago to this date, did you know that?
Commentator
Aurious
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Canada1772 Posts
March 03 2009 06:56 GMT
#3
Considering he has only played 12 TvZ's since November...
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 03 2009 06:57 GMT
#4
lol
shut up
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
March 03 2009 06:59 GMT
#5
This reminds me of NaDa's "Perfect TvZ". Invincible SKTerran.

Then he lost to sAviOr on RoV.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
CDRdude
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States5625 Posts
March 03 2009 07:00 GMT
#6
On March 03 2009 15:51 cas wrote:
Flash has not lost at TvZ on a bio-optimal map (128x, <= 4players, 5 matrix choke, non-retarded layout) since like November, going 18-0 or something equally ridiculous.

So you're the sole person who decides what a bio-optimal map is? Generalizing a bio map that much is stupid, especially given the "non-retarted" qualification which is blatantly subjective. You have played starcraft before, right?
Force staff is the best item in the game.
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17733 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-03 07:05:50
March 03 2009 07:01 GMT
#7
80 macro 200 micro
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
cas
Profile Joined January 2008
Mexico52 Posts
March 03 2009 07:06 GMT
#8
here's how games have gone over the duration:

zergs 4 base. their nats are gone before their defilers finish. flash enthusiastically hi5s his team.

zergs 3 base lurker. flash wins slower and then takes a drink of his brown liquid.

zergs 3 base upgrade stuff. see above, but he looks more bored than usual. he has moved on to pink liquid.

zergs try to ling him in a variety of ways. he just lifts and does his thing. he looks bored.

zergs try to ling him and follow with muta or lurker. see above, but the games are more fun. he has moved on to clear liquid, maybe club sodas? he starts to hold up a sign to the camera. it says "zerg is ova baby, lee yong ho FTW #1 zerg killa!"
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
March 03 2009 07:07 GMT
#9
SC will never be solved, this thread is useless.
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
March 03 2009 07:09 GMT
#10
oh yeah btw oov went 27-0 vs zerg at one time and no he didnt solve anything either
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
March 03 2009 07:13 GMT
#11
I wish someone would solve thread creation
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 03 2009 09:27 GMT
#12
On March 03 2009 15:59 Last Romantic wrote:
This reminds me of NaDa's "Perfect TvZ". Invincible SKTerran.

Then he lost to sAviOr on RoV.
Savior on Luna
and it was a revolutionary game dear sir!
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
March 03 2009 09:52 GMT
#13
On March 03 2009 18:27 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2009 15:59 Last Romantic wrote:
This reminds me of NaDa's "Perfect TvZ". Invincible SKTerran.

Then he lost to sAviOr on RoV.
Savior on Luna
and it was a revolutionary game dear sir!


Eh, bloody Twilight maps.

Yes, revolutionary indeed.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 03 2009 10:18 GMT
#14
Probably was thinking about Savior vs Ra from ODT on RoV - another epic matchup!
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25996 Posts
March 03 2009 16:22 GMT
#15
lol what is this?
Moderator
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36390 Posts
March 03 2009 17:34 GMT
#16
i have never seen someone talk so far above actual understanding lol
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25996 Posts
May 13 2009 20:33 GMT
#17
I read this thread like once a week hahaha
Moderator
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10829 Posts
May 13 2009 23:14 GMT
#18
lol so this is where your sig comes from loool
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25996 Posts
May 25 2010 19:19 GMT
#19
Bump.
Moderator
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
May 25 2010 19:21 GMT
#20
hahahah
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Team League
11:00
Group B
WardiTV832
IndyStarCraft 186
TKL 159
Liquipedia
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #125
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 203
IndyStarCraft 186
TKL 159
ProTech123
Rex 98
Hui .85
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 3931
PianO 2116
EffOrt 1285
Mini 484
actioN 462
Larva 452
firebathero 403
Stork 385
Snow 320
Hyuk 230
[ Show more ]
Soma 158
Aegong 134
hero 110
Dewaltoss 86
sSak 71
HiyA 65
Barracks 63
ToSsGirL 61
Sharp 55
Backho 48
sorry 45
[sc1f]eonzerg 43
Shine 34
JulyZerg 32
Bale 16
GoRush 16
Noble 15
SilentControl 9
Terrorterran 6
Icarus 5
Dota 2
qojqva2111
BananaSlamJamma575
syndereN297
Counter-Strike
kennyS1683
pashabiceps1625
zeus636
byalli302
markeloff129
edward86
oskar51
Other Games
singsing2264
Liquid`RaSZi1003
B2W.Neo1002
hiko639
Lowko301
crisheroes257
XaKoH 182
Fuzer 133
Sick98
QueenE92
Mew2King54
ArmadaUGS47
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 17
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV665
• lizZardDota237
League of Legends
• Nemesis2901
• TFBlade799
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
10h 12m
Replay Cast
19h 12m
Afreeca Starleague
20h 12m
BeSt vs Leta
Queen vs Jaedong
Replay Cast
1d 10h
The PondCast
1d 20h
OSC
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
TriGGeR vs Cure
ByuN vs Rogue
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Maru vs MaxPax
BSL
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS6
WardiTV Winter 2026
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
Escore Tournament S2: W1
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.