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On January 26 2012 13:08 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 12:46 Navillus wrote:
I agree with Radfield though I wish you hadn't mentioned the possibility of the inception agent seeing their messages, I agree that they probably would realize that but now they know for sure, and usually I say assume mafia is playing optimally but this is different because any noob scums aren't in communication to vet scums and so might have slipped up. Obviously we can't not talk about what mafia is likely to do at all though so basically I'm saying just be very careful with what you post about what we might have/do and they might have/do, and people who post a lot about that are very suspicious as that would be an easy way to transfer info. What are you kidding me? This game is somewhat similar to Resistance I insofar as that the mafia have limited/no way of communicating with each other, and as town we have to take great care when discussing what the mafia may do lest we accidentally inform them of some sort of strat they haven't though of. Obviously there's a possibility of inception agent seeing their messages. If some scum player is somehow so unimaginably bad that he didn't realize this, I'd be honestly shocked and appalled at his inordinately poor observation skills.
I will talk about what I want when I want.
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I see no voting thread so I assume we vote in here
##Vote Radfield
I don't like first post walls that take up lots of space while managing to say very little.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:05 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 12:57 Radfield wrote:On January 26 2012 12:35 Jackal58 wrote:On January 26 2012 12:22 Radfield wrote:/confirm On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues. First things first, please do not do this. Consider: Mafia do not know who their partners are. Therefore, high up on the priority list of the mafia is figuring out who the other members are. We need to not let this happen easily. The mafia have access to several pieces of information we do not, most specifically the number of mafia in the game. Players popping out and saying they think there are X amount of mafia are immediately getting a note in my scum book. Why? It's one way for a mafia player to indicate he is mafia to the rest of the crew, without raising suspicion. Makes sense? So no speculation on mafia numbers please, at least not right now. Second, mafia have very limited forms of communication this game, and from the looks of the Inception agent role, we can assume that town has some way to view their messages. This means mafia have to be extremely careful with what they write, so blatant things like lets kill X tomorrow are probably out. So mafia need a means to try to indicate to their brethren who should be getting hit. Imagine I am scum, I want to make sure that my buddies don't accidently send in hits on players I think are scummy, I want them to send in the hits on people I think seem like sure town. So what am I going to do? I'm going to repeatedly hammer it home in thread that I think Player Z is sure town. If there is general consensus among the group that player Z is town, he is a great target for mafia to lump in on. We need to ensure this does not happen. Therefore I propose that NO ONE call anyone else town. Players are either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, OR not scum. That is all. If you think someone is almost for sure town, you still just have to call them 'not scum'. Benefits: Stops mafia from finding clear night-kill targets, and increases the chance of them shooting themselves. Cons: Possibly leaves us low on town leaders. Certain players may spend too much time going after obvious townies. Likewise, we should not be making medic lists. If you think a particular player should receive protection, that's probably cool, but no listing 3 or 4 people. In this game, that's just giving mafia a clear list of targets to shoot at, which is exactly what they need(a list). Medics in this scenario should be protecting whomever is most likely to die anyways, as there is no WIFOMing your medic protect around. Third, and this is straight out of resistance mafia, no talking about mafia strats. We simply do not talk about optimal mafia moves, or likely moves, as that is simply a way for mafia to galvanize their actions together. In a game with minimal mafia interaction, we need to ensure that they cannot use the thread to disseminate information So this game we talk about townie strats and townie moves, not mafia ones. On the flip side we do not call people likely town or town, we call them not scum or varying degrees of scum. Thoughts? Agreement or Disagreement? Nice post. Wtf is that booger doing in the middle of it? Not sure I follow. The idea is that you shouldn't be calling anyone town or probably town. You should either call them scummy(or some degree of scummy) or 'Not Scum'. ie: Don't reveal the degree to which you think someone is town, as that is a way for mafia to communicate, and a way for mafia to galvanize their hits onto townies. Or were you asking something else? Alright let's do it this way. I'm not going to say this is stupid. I'm going to say it's very smart, kinda smart, smart, or not smart at all. Dude this is fucking stupid.
Why is it dumb.
Mafia need to vote in order to make a night-kill. Each mafia member gets two votes. If there is no obvious town consensus on who is town, then that makes the mafia vote much more difficult. If we have a couple players who many of us are saying are obvious town, then mafia are obviously going to all vote for those players. If instead we just have a large list of players who are 'not currently scummy' then that means the mafia votes will be far more spread out. There will also likely be a number of mafia in our 'not scum' group, which means the odds of mafia shooting themselves are far greater.
It ups the odds of friendly fire, and lowers the odds of having players die who are obviously town. It's hard to spot obvious townies when you are mafia, though this game may be slightly different in that respect.
If it's dumb, tell me why it is dumb.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:15 redFF wrote:
I see no voting thread so I assume we vote in here
##Vote Radfield
I don't like first post walls that take up lots of space while managing to say very little.
That's funny you say that. I had several very clear points I was making, and they took a bit of text to make. Please point out the fluff to me.
More-so than many other large game-starting posts I have made, that one had very clear direction, focus, and specific tangible goals. It has become a fad in TL Mafia to make claims that large posts are devoid of content, so please point out where I am lacking content in that post. Show me that you are not just part of the fad.
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On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues.
Pointless post.
On January 26 2012 13:05 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 12:57 Radfield wrote:On January 26 2012 12:35 Jackal58 wrote:On January 26 2012 12:22 Radfield wrote:/confirm On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues. First things first, please do not do this. Consider: Mafia do not know who their partners are. Therefore, high up on the priority list of the mafia is figuring out who the other members are. We need to not let this happen easily. The mafia have access to several pieces of information we do not, most specifically the number of mafia in the game. Players popping out and saying they think there are X amount of mafia are immediately getting a note in my scum book. Why? It's one way for a mafia player to indicate he is mafia to the rest of the crew, without raising suspicion. Makes sense? So no speculation on mafia numbers please, at least not right now. Second, mafia have very limited forms of communication this game, and from the looks of the Inception agent role, we can assume that town has some way to view their messages. This means mafia have to be extremely careful with what they write, so blatant things like lets kill X tomorrow are probably out. So mafia need a means to try to indicate to their brethren who should be getting hit. Imagine I am scum, I want to make sure that my buddies don't accidently send in hits on players I think are scummy, I want them to send in the hits on people I think seem like sure town. So what am I going to do? I'm going to repeatedly hammer it home in thread that I think Player Z is sure town. If there is general consensus among the group that player Z is town, he is a great target for mafia to lump in on. We need to ensure this does not happen. Therefore I propose that NO ONE call anyone else town. Players are either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, OR not scum. That is all. If you think someone is almost for sure town, you still just have to call them 'not scum'. Benefits: Stops mafia from finding clear night-kill targets, and increases the chance of them shooting themselves. Cons: Possibly leaves us low on town leaders. Certain players may spend too much time going after obvious townies. Likewise, we should not be making medic lists. If you think a particular player should receive protection, that's probably cool, but no listing 3 or 4 people. In this game, that's just giving mafia a clear list of targets to shoot at, which is exactly what they need(a list). Medics in this scenario should be protecting whomever is most likely to die anyways, as there is no WIFOMing your medic protect around. Third, and this is straight out of resistance mafia, no talking about mafia strats. We simply do not talk about optimal mafia moves, or likely moves, as that is simply a way for mafia to galvanize their actions together. In a game with minimal mafia interaction, we need to ensure that they cannot use the thread to disseminate information So this game we talk about townie strats and townie moves, not mafia ones. On the flip side we do not call people likely town or town, we call them not scum or varying degrees of scum. Thoughts? Agreement or Disagreement? Nice post. Wtf is that booger doing in the middle of it? Not sure I follow. The idea is that you shouldn't be calling anyone town or probably town. You should either call them scummy(or some degree of scummy) or 'Not Scum'. ie: Don't reveal the degree to which you think someone is town, as that is a way for mafia to communicate, and a way for mafia to galvanize their hits onto townies. Or were you asking something else? Alright let's do it this way. I'm not going to say this is stupid. I'm going to say it's very smart, kinda smart, smart, or not smart at all. Dude this is fucking stupid.
This is some serious town posting yo.
On January 26 2012 12:46 Navillus wrote:
I agree with Radfield though I wish you hadn't mentioned the possibility of the inception agent seeing their messages, I agree that they probably would realize that but now they know for sure, and usually I say assume mafia is playing optimally but this is different because any noob scums aren't in communication to vet scums and so might have slipped up. Obviously we can't not talk about what mafia is likely to do at all though so basically I'm saying just be very careful with what you post about what we might have/do and they might have/do, and people who post a lot about that are very suspicious as that would be an easy way to transfer info.
So stop talking about it then. So far you have one post and it's talking about the one thing you're telling us not to talk about. This post just looks so fake with the whole "don't tell them about something that's in the op come on man we don't want to help out the scum look at me im really town blahblahblah"
In fact ##Vote Navillus
not scum is 7 letters and a space
town is 4 letters
therefore i will just be saying town.
jackal is town
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I get the "calling people town" gig, but how would mafia figure out who each other are based on speculation? I don't see anyway I could hint that I'm scum without townies seeing it, or that townies could just fake?
Mafia are going to find mafia based on reads rather then hints I would think. And above those, broadcasts are going to give them an edge. Seems kinda pointless.
I would be curious as to what GGQ and jackal would know to look out for in the first game, but jackal was LOL, and GGQ for all intent and purpose was a townie.
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I think redff is not being conducive to a pro-town atmosphere. At best he smell's like a cell agent 
##Vote redFF
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:15 redFF wrote:
I see no voting thread so I assume we vote in here
##Vote Radfield
I don't like first post walls that take up lots of space while managing to say very little.
On January 26 2012 13:22 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues. Pointless post. Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 13:05 Jackal58 wrote:On January 26 2012 12:57 Radfield wrote:On January 26 2012 12:35 Jackal58 wrote:On January 26 2012 12:22 Radfield wrote:/confirm On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues. First things first, please do not do this. Consider: Mafia do not know who their partners are. Therefore, high up on the priority list of the mafia is figuring out who the other members are. We need to not let this happen easily. The mafia have access to several pieces of information we do not, most specifically the number of mafia in the game. Players popping out and saying they think there are X amount of mafia are immediately getting a note in my scum book. Why? It's one way for a mafia player to indicate he is mafia to the rest of the crew, without raising suspicion. Makes sense? So no speculation on mafia numbers please, at least not right now. Second, mafia have very limited forms of communication this game, and from the looks of the Inception agent role, we can assume that town has some way to view their messages. This means mafia have to be extremely careful with what they write, so blatant things like lets kill X tomorrow are probably out. So mafia need a means to try to indicate to their brethren who should be getting hit. Imagine I am scum, I want to make sure that my buddies don't accidently send in hits on players I think are scummy, I want them to send in the hits on people I think seem like sure town. So what am I going to do? I'm going to repeatedly hammer it home in thread that I think Player Z is sure town. If there is general consensus among the group that player Z is town, he is a great target for mafia to lump in on. We need to ensure this does not happen. Therefore I propose that NO ONE call anyone else town. Players are either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, OR not scum. That is all. If you think someone is almost for sure town, you still just have to call them 'not scum'. Benefits: Stops mafia from finding clear night-kill targets, and increases the chance of them shooting themselves. Cons: Possibly leaves us low on town leaders. Certain players may spend too much time going after obvious townies. Likewise, we should not be making medic lists. If you think a particular player should receive protection, that's probably cool, but no listing 3 or 4 people. In this game, that's just giving mafia a clear list of targets to shoot at, which is exactly what they need(a list). Medics in this scenario should be protecting whomever is most likely to die anyways, as there is no WIFOMing your medic protect around. Third, and this is straight out of resistance mafia, no talking about mafia strats. We simply do not talk about optimal mafia moves, or likely moves, as that is simply a way for mafia to galvanize their actions together. In a game with minimal mafia interaction, we need to ensure that they cannot use the thread to disseminate information So this game we talk about townie strats and townie moves, not mafia ones. On the flip side we do not call people likely town or town, we call them not scum or varying degrees of scum. Thoughts? Agreement or Disagreement? Nice post. Wtf is that booger doing in the middle of it? Not sure I follow. The idea is that you shouldn't be calling anyone town or probably town. You should either call them scummy(or some degree of scummy) or 'Not Scum'. ie: Don't reveal the degree to which you think someone is town, as that is a way for mafia to communicate, and a way for mafia to galvanize their hits onto townies. Or were you asking something else? Alright let's do it this way. I'm not going to say this is stupid. I'm going to say it's very smart, kinda smart, smart, or not smart at all. Dude this is fucking stupid. This is some serious town posting yo. Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 12:46 Navillus wrote:
I agree with Radfield though I wish you hadn't mentioned the possibility of the inception agent seeing their messages, I agree that they probably would realize that but now they know for sure, and usually I say assume mafia is playing optimally but this is different because any noob scums aren't in communication to vet scums and so might have slipped up. Obviously we can't not talk about what mafia is likely to do at all though so basically I'm saying just be very careful with what you post about what we might have/do and they might have/do, and people who post a lot about that are very suspicious as that would be an easy way to transfer info. So stop talking about it then. So far you have one post and it's talking about the one thing you're telling us not to talk about. This post just looks so fake with the whole "don't tell them about something that's in the op come on man we don't want to help out the scum look at me im really town blahblahblah" In fact ##Vote Navillusnot scum is 7 letters and a space town is 4 letters therefore i will just be saying town. jackal is town
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._______________________________.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306315
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:22 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 12:46 Navillus wrote:
I agree with Radfield though I wish you hadn't mentioned the possibility of the inception agent seeing their messages, I agree that they probably would realize that but now they know for sure, and usually I say assume mafia is playing optimally but this is different because any noob scums aren't in communication to vet scums and so might have slipped up. Obviously we can't not talk about what mafia is likely to do at all though so basically I'm saying just be very careful with what you post about what we might have/do and they might have/do, and people who post a lot about that are very suspicious as that would be an easy way to transfer info. So stop talking about it then. So far you have one post and it's talking about the one thing you're telling us not to talk about. This post just looks so fake with the whole "don't tell them about something that's in the op come on man we don't want to help out the scum look at me im really town blahblahblah" In fact ##Vote Navillus
Agreed.
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On January 26 2012 13:17 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 13:05 Jackal58 wrote:On January 26 2012 12:57 Radfield wrote:On January 26 2012 12:35 Jackal58 wrote:On January 26 2012 12:22 Radfield wrote:/confirm On January 26 2012 10:40 bumatlarge wrote:
Depending on power roles, I'd say there are about 4-5 mafia? Leaning 5 and town having some blues. First things first, please do not do this. Consider: Mafia do not know who their partners are. Therefore, high up on the priority list of the mafia is figuring out who the other members are. We need to not let this happen easily. The mafia have access to several pieces of information we do not, most specifically the number of mafia in the game. Players popping out and saying they think there are X amount of mafia are immediately getting a note in my scum book. Why? It's one way for a mafia player to indicate he is mafia to the rest of the crew, without raising suspicion. Makes sense? So no speculation on mafia numbers please, at least not right now. Second, mafia have very limited forms of communication this game, and from the looks of the Inception agent role, we can assume that town has some way to view their messages. This means mafia have to be extremely careful with what they write, so blatant things like lets kill X tomorrow are probably out. So mafia need a means to try to indicate to their brethren who should be getting hit. Imagine I am scum, I want to make sure that my buddies don't accidently send in hits on players I think are scummy, I want them to send in the hits on people I think seem like sure town. So what am I going to do? I'm going to repeatedly hammer it home in thread that I think Player Z is sure town. If there is general consensus among the group that player Z is town, he is a great target for mafia to lump in on. We need to ensure this does not happen. Therefore I propose that NO ONE call anyone else town. Players are either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, OR not scum. That is all. If you think someone is almost for sure town, you still just have to call them 'not scum'. Benefits: Stops mafia from finding clear night-kill targets, and increases the chance of them shooting themselves. Cons: Possibly leaves us low on town leaders. Certain players may spend too much time going after obvious townies. Likewise, we should not be making medic lists. If you think a particular player should receive protection, that's probably cool, but no listing 3 or 4 people. In this game, that's just giving mafia a clear list of targets to shoot at, which is exactly what they need(a list). Medics in this scenario should be protecting whomever is most likely to die anyways, as there is no WIFOMing your medic protect around. Third, and this is straight out of resistance mafia, no talking about mafia strats. We simply do not talk about optimal mafia moves, or likely moves, as that is simply a way for mafia to galvanize their actions together. In a game with minimal mafia interaction, we need to ensure that they cannot use the thread to disseminate information So this game we talk about townie strats and townie moves, not mafia ones. On the flip side we do not call people likely town or town, we call them not scum or varying degrees of scum. Thoughts? Agreement or Disagreement? Nice post. Wtf is that booger doing in the middle of it? Not sure I follow. The idea is that you shouldn't be calling anyone town or probably town. You should either call them scummy(or some degree of scummy) or 'Not Scum'. ie: Don't reveal the degree to which you think someone is town, as that is a way for mafia to communicate, and a way for mafia to galvanize their hits onto townies. Or were you asking something else? Alright let's do it this way. I'm not going to say this is stupid. I'm going to say it's very smart, kinda smart, smart, or not smart at all. Dude this is fucking stupid. Why is it dumb. Mafia need to vote in order to make a night-kill. Each mafia member gets two votes. If there is no obvious town consensus on who is town, then that makes the mafia vote much more difficult. If we have a couple players who many of us are saying are obvious town, then mafia are obviously going to all vote for those players. If instead we just have a large list of players who are 'not currently scummy' then that means the mafia votes will be far more spread out. There will also likely be a number of mafia in our 'not scum' group, which means the odds of mafia shooting themselves are far greater. It ups the odds of friendly fire, and lowers the odds of having players die who are obviously town. It's hard to spot obvious townies when you are mafia, though this game may be slightly different in that respect. If it's dumb, tell me why it is dumb.
because saying someone is town or leaning town is the same thing as saying someone is not scummy. It's convoluted and pointless and an excellent way for you to distract town from scumhunting right out the gate.
On January 26 2012 13:20 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 13:15 redFF wrote:
I see no voting thread so I assume we vote in here
##Vote Radfield
I don't like first post walls that take up lots of space while managing to say very little. That's funny you say that. I had several very clear points I was making, and they took a bit of text to make. Please point out the fluff to me. More-so than many other large game-starting posts I have made, that one had very clear direction, focus, and specific tangible goals. It has become a fad in TL Mafia to make claims that large posts are devoid of content, so please point out where I am lacking content in that post. Show me that you are not just part of the fad.
Because the points you made had nothing to do with looking for the mafia, in fact nothing you've done so far has resembled scumhunting.
On January 26 2012 13:23 bumatlarge wrote:I think redff is not being conducive to a pro-town atmosphere. At best he smell's like a cell agent ##Vote redFF
thanks
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Hey that wasn't there a few seconds ago.
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Nobody cares you made your point.
What do you think of radfield's "plan"?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
You're right redFF, so far I have done no scum hunting, and when I made that post you may have noticed there were approx 0 actual posts with content....
I don't scumhunt extremely early on in the game, as my reads (and yours I imagine) are terrible during that timeframe. I scumhunt at my own pace, and have a decent track record with it. You do your thing and I'll do mine.
because saying someone is town or leaning town is the same thing as saying someone is not scummy. It's convoluted and pointless and an excellent way for you to distract town from scumhunting right out the gate.
Having several people state player X is very likely town is NOT the same thing as having several people state player X is not scummy. It's a minor thing anyways though, and I agree it's not worth a huge amount of our time to argue about it. It IS however a worthwhile tool to deny mafia information.
My point is not to revolutionize and change the way this game is played. Obviously we need to scum hunt according to pretty much all the normal metrics. However, there are a few minor tweaks we can make to optimize town play, so why wouldn't we do them?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:27 redFF wrote:Nobody cares you made your point. What do you think of radfield's "plan"?
Why are you so dismissive of it? Typically mafia are the informed minority, but in this game they are the uniformed minority. I'm trying to use what tools we have to limit their ability to become informed. Likewise, mafia can typically plan and co-ordinate, yet they have severe handicaps this game, and we should do what we can to keep those in place.
Why are you so eager to give them their advantage back?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:27 redFF wrote:Nobody cares you made your point. What do you think of radfield's "plan"?
I think his plan is either scummy, very scummy, definitely scum, or not scum, but I won't mention how town it is or isn't.
Seriously though I see no reason why a town player would distinguish "how town" players are. If you want to say "this guy is scummy / scum / not scum" go ahead and say it. If you want to say "I think this guy is more town than that guy", you're helping scum.
Why are you helping scum? Well, if you're right, you're painting a target on a guy's head and helping the mafia coordinate their kills.
Think about it this way. Imagine you're a scum player at the end of D1, and you're trying to figure out who you want to vote to shoot. Your chief goal is to not shoot other scum. So you're gonna start looking for "ok who is definitely town, who do my fellow scummates think is town?" You can't talk with your scummates, so you look for possible crumbs / indicators from your allies as to who is the townest town who's not scum, and you shoot him.
A secondary goal for town, in addition to hunting scum, is preventing them from coordinating their kills and hopefully getting them to trip over each other. Radfield understands this, as should Jackal, who played in Resistance, another game without a mafia QT.
I agree with these tenets of Rad's plan for the reasons I have outlined here.
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Why are you so eager to give them their advantage back? I'm not.
We should be transparent with our reads. Scum will just end up shooting into the "not scummy" pool and we might have wagons build up on people who others think are town but in thread listed as null reads.
You're right though, we shouldn't argue about this.
Bum unvote me and vote Navillus, everyone else do the same.
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Example reads
A: scummy
B: not scum
C: very scummy
D: not scum
E: Definitely scum
F: scummy
Not scum: B and D
Example reads 2
A: scummy
B: town
C: very scummy
D: town
E: Definitely scum
F: scummy
not scum: B and D
its the same thing
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I think Jackal and redFF are misunderstanding Radfield's point with the idea of not calling people town. It's not a matter of just inverting it to "not scummy".
1) In any mafia game, mafia want to shoot the most valuable townies.
2) In a standard mafia game, mafia can share their reads and strategies on the most valuable townies and agree to shoot them.
3) In this mafia game, mafia must figure out their own reads and individually submit the kills.
4) If mafia disagree on who is the most valuable townies to kill, they can submit sub-optimal kills.
5) If townies post in the thread who the most towny players are, they make it easier for the mafia to co-ordinate kills.
The above is pure logic. If you disagree, what step do you disagree with?
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RedFF I really would like to hear an actual reason that Rad's plan is bad, the best you've come up with seems to be "it's convoluted", which well, I honestly don't see a single confusing part of it, scummy = scummy not scum = the opposite, he's not using like new terminology, and that "not scum" is more letters than "town", which I'm going to assume was not a real argument. Insofar as neither of those are particularly convincing and I think that you're smart enough to realize that I'd really like to know why you actually don't want this to happen, it seems to have clear benefits to the town that have been outlined, do you have a problem with that?
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EPT
