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We have issued a clarification to this article after discussion with staff, read here - Heyoka |
I would like to perhaps see the EG section re-written but on a much broader scope investigating the usefullness or lackthereof of all foreign training houses. What progess was/is made by EG while in the lair, by those living in the swedish team house headed by TLO, and the old root/fnatic team house at the times when they were/are active. Whether they can be considered sucesses or failures can be examined based on some sort of quantitative scale and further examination done to see what things helped increase or decrease chances of success in each case.
Going even deeper, in time it might be worthwhile to examine the progress of foreign players who trained for extended periods of time in a korean teamhouse ( too few examples right now) and see how that compares to the results of those whose teamhouses are not in korea.
An opinion piece done like this would be so much better to read and be worth more to the community than what was intially posted which then had to be edited for being more inflamatory than what most of you see now and then apologized for. I love TL and I want it to be the sort of place I am come to for informed and well thought out articles no matter what topic. If I want to read biased accusations crafted for drama I'll go to the blogs section or reddit thanks.
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On November 30 2011 09:40 Lokj wrote: Just let me post another example: If somebody stated in upcoming article on DH that Grubby's stint in Korea didn't bring him the promissing results everybody expected from one of the best Warcraft 3 players ever in Starcraft 2 with Korean-alike practice. Would anybody really fall over it and practically force the writer to apologize afterwards?
Depends on the language used and where it was posted, if it was a highlighted peice like CC's was and used similar language then yes. If someone said Grubby " needed to get his shit togeather" to gain the prestige he used to have and perhaps hosting, casting and winning ( one of) his own tournaments was just " managing to scrape up some good PR" people would be all over them. It would also be a pretty piss poorly written and researched article given that grubby has been fairly sucessful lately for someone who spent a whole month in korea.
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On November 30 2011 10:07 ladyumbra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 09:40 Lokj wrote: Just let me post another example: If somebody stated in upcoming article on DH that Grubby's stint in Korea didn't bring him the promissing results everybody expected from one of the best Warcraft 3 players ever in Starcraft 2 with Korean-alike practice. Would anybody really fall over it and practically force the writer to apologize afterwards? Depends on the language used and where it was posted, if it was a highlighted peice like CC's was and used similar language then yes. If someone said Grubby " needed to get his shit togeather" to gain the prestige he used to have and perhaps hosting, casting and winning ( one of) his own tournaments was just " managing to scrape up some good PR" people would be all over them. It would also be a pretty piss poorly written and researched article given that grubby has been fairly sucessful lately for someone who spent a whole month in korea.
The hilarious thing about this is that pre MLG providence people were talking the same way about naniwa. Went to korea, failed to do well in code a, came home, no results blah blah. OMFG Crushes MVP and NesTea back to back. What? You can't do that, we're busy posting on forums about how crap you are and how going to Korea was a waste.
Team EG's day will come and then everyone saying this shit will be busy posting crap about some other player or team who haven't met your expectations yet.
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Let's be completely honest here
HuK was produced by oGs, not EG by any stretch of the imagination, and he has only seemed to do worse since leaving the oGs house.
PuMa was pretty much produced by TSL and bought by EG
Neither of them has ever really lived in the EG NA house such that you can say they've improved their play for it
The peak of idra's sc2 career was in his time in korea, he isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, but it's hard to deny he has gotten worse relative to top players since he moved to the team house (read: moved out of korea)
The house has not helped anyone else, every other EG member has produced 0 results despite being there for quite a while
The house obviously costs a TON of money to upkeep, while producing basically nothing better in comparison to if it wasn't there
I really commend EG for trying, but after this long it's not shocking that people have started to realize it was a bad business decision, I can't help but agree with this article
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Just had to comment on this specific part:
"Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify."
Gatored is fucking good man. You have no idea what you're talking about if you're trashing on Gatored. 3-0 a top TvP'er (top) who lives in the ogs house? That is nuts and deserves respect imo.
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Artosis and inControl both tore this post apart on State of the Game.
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MLG was a great event, Leenock was so fucking impressive in his match vs DRG. After I watched that shit, I fucking knew he would rape Naniwa. That kid has the potential to be around for a long time. He impressed me more than NesTea or MC ever has (YUP). It was good to see Gatored do well as well, I been noticing how good that guy is for a long time now. Great to see him finally showing what hes made of. Great casting by Artosis / Tasteless as always, I will tune in every time to see those guys. Nice coverage, loved the pics (Machine so handsome).
edit: I'm going to stay out of the EG thing for the most part. Ain't my place, but I do think it was a very premature and doesn't do this game any good. Did you expect a gaming house to open and then have the players win every tournament every time and never ever loose to anyone bad? This game has too much variance at the moment for that to ever happen... for anyone. Now, I do think journalists are entitled to their opinion and entitled to express it as they see fit, as it is their job. Doesn't mean we have to blindly agree with it though and if every player / team is subjected to criticism and scrutiny (which they should be, result wise as least), the people writing about them and covering them should be subjected to the same extent. Personally, I think it was a very entertaining read and I thank you for that, but at the same time, I think a lot of people didn't get the respect they deserve in this post and for that, I am sad.
Long live SC 
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On November 30 2011 09:43 FXOpen wrote:
I don't agree that an apology was necessary at all....
The problem is that with the way the sc2 community works, you need to be quick and backpedal or else you will be crucified for having an opinion.
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On November 29 2011 11:07 Shiori wrote:
I don't understand why people are flaming the team house thing. I understand that TL needs to keep up appearances, but there was nothing unprofessional about the way the paragraph was written. It's definitely true, in addition. I don't think we've seen a substantial improvement, but even still, why are people giving so much flak to the author?
I think the backpedaling was more of a self-concerned move. TL has their own dead weight (and half their team spent months in a Korean pro-house no less), so toning critical comments about other players' poor performances is just a good idea.
I mean, EG has some players who lose way too much to justify keeping, but TL has Tyler, Haypro, and Jinro, all three of whom they fly to events consistently only to have them lose early almost every time.
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So which of those three guys is Gatored?
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On November 30 2011 16:02 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 11:07 Shiori wrote:
I don't understand why people are flaming the team house thing. I understand that TL needs to keep up appearances, but there was nothing unprofessional about the way the paragraph was written. It's definitely true, in addition. I don't think we've seen a substantial improvement, but even still, why are people giving so much flak to the author? I think the backpedaling was more of a self-concerned move. TL has their own dead weight (and half their team spent months in a Korean pro-house no less), so toning critical comments about other players' poor performances is just a good idea. I mean, EG has some players who lose way too much to justify keeping, but TL has Tyler, Haypro, and Jinro, all three of whom they fly to events consistently only to have them lose early almost every time.
I just think its a little funny that EG, of all teams, would have a problem with an individual chiming in with a critical op-ed piece.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big EG fan, but they have the most opinionated, openly critical players in the scene. It's WHY I'm a fan. Even SirScoots isn't afraid to lay into another organization or team from time to time.
Of course people are going to be critical of EG. They invite criticism. Big whoop.
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On November 30 2011 02:02 confusedcrib wrote:
I would like to personally apologize to the following people:
Evil Geniuses, specifically iNcontroL, Axslav, Strifecro, Idra, Huk, Puma, Machine, Demuslim, LZGamer and SirScoots for putting what was an unsubstantiated personal thought onto such a high pedestal as TeamLiquid news
dde, Spanishiwa, State, Ostojiy, Syckness, Agh, HeavenOnearth, Binski, Ruff13, and Forbs for understating their level of skill in referring to them as "No Names," they are some of my favorite players, and I made extremely poor word choice.
Haypro and Illusion for leaving out their amazing tournament runs
Hot_Bid and Nazgul, for tarnishing TeamLiquid's name and calling the quality of our news into question
Heyoka and WaxAngel, whose editing skills are what makes TL news as good as it is, and have the right to expect more from their writers
All of the writers and mods for TeamLiquid, in producing poor quality content I brought a bad name to the amazing quality content that you all make our standard.
Statement:
Upon further reflection, I owe everyone here an apology. When I originally posted the article, I knew there was something wrong with it, and chose to ignore it over Thanksgiving weekend rather than giving it the extra time it needed.That article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news, and did not have anywhere close to the amount of research behind it that it should have. I put everyone here in a terrible situation diplomatically and personally, inciting anger from both fans of TeamLiquid and other professionals in the industry. I'm especially sorry to Heyoka, for he should be able to trust the content coming out of writers to be good, and I fell vastly short of expectations. The article was clearly below the standards held by both TeamLiquid and myself, and I will do my best to insure that every article I write in the future gets the scrutiny and attention to detail that TeamLiquid precedents. I hope I have written enough good content in the past that my name as a writer was not completely destroyed by this incident; I did not intend to get my name in the community by screwing up so badly, I am truly sorry.
Your apology is very heartfelt and sincere, which is a rare sight in online communities. I feel that it would do well for the apology to be acknowledged and accepted by those who were offended.
Remember Ghandi: "The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong."
Also, regardless if you feel the apology was necessary or not, the gentleman felt that it was and expressed himself. That should be acknowledged.
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It's a shame that when someone posts an opinion like this, they get hounded and almost forced into an apology for the sake of keeping the peace.
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All this EG stuff is distracting everyone from the awesome photos!
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Excellent article except for the EG team house. Why do you even make a (poorly written) piece about a team and their house in a post that is a summary of the MLG tournament? It doesn't make any sense. And like Rich pointed out, excellent photos 
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On November 30 2011 17:09 R1CH wrote:
All this EG stuff is distracting everyone from the awesome photos!
Can't say I dig TLO's beard. He has a handsome face!
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On November 30 2011 17:16 Integra wrote:Excellent article except for the EG team house. Why do you even make a (poorly written) piece about a team and their house in a post that is a summary of the MLG tournament? It doesn't make any sense. And like Rich pointed out, excellent photos
It helps to read the comments in the thread before posting something critical. The original poster specifically stated the reasoning behind the post, the mistake that was made, a profuse apology to those offended and a promise to not repeat the same mistake in the future.
You are only rubbing salt in a wound that needs to close with your reckless criticism.
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On November 30 2011 17:28 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 17:09 R1CH wrote:
All this EG stuff is distracting everyone from the awesome photos! Can't say I dig TLO's beard. He has a handsome face!
It is a pretty handsome beard as well, to be fair
Hope he dosn't trim it before he wins a tournament.. When he does finally take a tourney, it's going to be so much more awesome for him and everyone ::-)
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He definitely should (and did) apologize for that piece on EG. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even the TL staff, but we expect a higher level of scrutiny out of anything that is featured on TL. If he had written that section as its own post on the SC2 general boards, it barely would be worth mentioning and there wouldn't be this huge uproar. For featured posts, we expect well researched and supported posts (predictions get a bit of a pass, but questioning the value of another team's house does not). The OP section on EG was not researched or well supported, it seemed much more like someone spouting off an ill-informed opinion.
If you really want to make a case that the EG house isn't worth it, then that's fine. Make a real case for it. Do some research and tell me how much that house is costing the team each month, including any extra staff, food, etc. Now do some research and find out how much of a salary discount each current player is willing to give because he's getting free room and board. Finally, try to find out how much money EG is getting directly and indirectly because they have a house (more sponsorship deals and other profitable projects now and in the future due to added exposure). Then add it all up and tell me if the house is a positive or a negative. Is it worth it?
The only people that have access to all that information is the EG management and they seem to think it's worth it. Even though you can't get exact answers, with a little bit of digging you should be able to hit some ballpark numbers. With approximate numbers in hand, write it up and tell me whether it's worth it or not. Now, if you answer turns up that the house is a negative, tell me what caliber of player(s) they could have signed for the net cost of the house just to help the point sink in.
If you want to change the article from "Is It Worth It" to "Is it Helping the Team Get Better Results", then use researched facts rather than anecdotal statements about one tournament. If you want to single out the EG house specifically as opposed to all team houses, then compare the results to other team houses. Korea has a ton of them (and they all have lower tier players with almost 0 accomplishments). For EG, show me some player stats. Show me that from NASL Season One to Season Two:
Incontrol - 42% -> 18%, 24% decrease.
Axslav - 50% -> 24%, 26% decrease.
Machine - 30% -> DNP.
However, then also add in
Idra - 62% -> 71%, 9% increase.
Look right there, I made a case that Incontrol, Axslav, and Machine have underperformed since joining the team house. And it's a much better supported case than what the original article made. Or I could take a look at ladder stats from season 3 to season 4:
Incontrol - 56% -> 52%, 4% decrease.
Idra - 74% -> 59%, 15% decrease.
However, then you should also note:
Axslav - 60% -> 72%, 12% increase.
Strifecro - 62% -> 74%, 12% increase.
Machine 57% -> 61%, 4% increase.
You could accept those numbers at face value and make a case based on them and that's okay. However, a really good journalist would dig a bit deeper. Was season one of NASL actually an overall weaker field? People like to focus on the lack of Koreans in Season Two, but Season two also got rid of a lot of lower end pros. Maybe season two really is a stronger group overall and that would explain the numbers I've shown. Now, the really fun part is that you could write multiple interesting articles purely on the possible explanations for these numbers.
I think I'll go do one right now...found here.
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EPT
