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On December 02 2008 04:52 Racenilatr wrote:
The only reason you 2 hatch vs protoss is because your offracing or your playing a nooby protoss
Not always, though it usually is a pretty bad idea. If it is scouted, then you lose. If he opens corsairs, and you don't have good scourge control, you can lose. If he opens templar, you can lose.
Usually, two hatch mutas works best versus terran, and you still need to have good micro at that.
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On December 02 2008 04:54 Archaic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 04:52 Racenilatr wrote:
The only reason you 2 hatch vs protoss is because your offracing or your playing a nooby protoss Not always, though it usually is a pretty bad idea. If it is scouted, then you lose. If he opens corsairs, and you don't have good scourge control, you can lose. If he opens templar, you can lose. Usually, two hatch mutas works best versus terran, and you still need to have good micro at that.
Agreed. I think the 3 hatch opening is the safest and the best chance to win no matter what MU. The risk that comes along with a 2 hatch build is huge, and for the newer/noobier zerg player, a 3 hatch opening to hydra/muta ling would be much safer
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On December 02 2008 03:03 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 22:49 IdrA wrote:
3rd hatch should always be at another gas expo
the speedlings are optional, although there is some risk of a mmf rush breaking you before mutas are out if you dont get them
guardians are the best followup, lurker transitions generally blow unless your mutas do a ton of damage, in which case hive would win just as well.
dont overdo it early on, if his turrets arent up when you get there knock yourself out, but dont force. it its more important to keep mutas alive. 99% of terrans forget they need to keep adding turrets, once you accumulate 11+ mutas you can just go around laughing as his 4 turrets try to kill a muta before they all die.
if you have minerals building up, take more expos or make more lings. taking more expos is better unless you think hes gonna be able to attack before guardians (most wont, best way to respond is to turtle till you have irad).
it seems obvious but the most important thing is to actually have good muta micro. there are no foreigners who can fight with muta vs mm competently. practice hold position micro and how to dance around a pack of mm (in the open, no cliffs) and pick off strays. if you cant do that, learn how or dont go 2 hat. what do you do against 2 hatch muta as terran, I like to do the quicker 2nd rax after i start my EXP, but the god damn speedlings and mutas always seem to rape (from the koreans on iccup, especially when magma did it  ) I understand still making turrets, but i Dunno, i dont have enough up when the mutas initially come. if he makes more than 2 lings get a bunker at your natural, and keep scouting. if he keeps making lings or you see speed before his mutas are out hes 99% gonna attack so have have some scvs blocking.
generally you have to cut an scv or 2 (never stop marine production) in order to get up turrets to stop the first wave, generally youll want 2-3 at each minline and 1-2 above your ramp (and by your barracks, assuming theyre in that same general area). your marine range shouldnt be done at that point, so just keep your mm in among the turrets hes nearest. once you have marine range you just try to mirror him, when he trys to engage your mm stim, pull back a bit, and then charge forward and focus on a single muta. you also want to make sure hes coming in perpendicular to your marines, ie your marines are in a line with the mutas coming in like this l<-, so all your rines fire at once.
other than that, just make sure you keep adding turrets to your min lines and try to get to vessels as fast as possible, if you know you arent gonna have 2(preferably more) vessels with irad by the time his guards are out go 3 port wraith instead.
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oh nice post 
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yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push?
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how he does he keep reinforcing the mutas while massing a lurk army?
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As a zerg who likes going 2hatch muta a lot, I can say that if I haven't crippled their economy or killed enough marines to run lings in, my harass is basically over when their science vessel irradiates me (unless I'm able to quickly grab the irradiated muta), not to mention if I don't have lurkers or guardians in good numbers by this time they can move out and hit my expos or nat or something. My economy is going to be weak, won't be able to afford mass defense. If I don't kill them with muta/ling the game usually ends for me, since I often have too few lurkers done by the time they move out. I'm 1-1 with guardians, but the win was more terran's fault for sitting and not attacking me than my fault.
edit: Ilikestarcraft, you usually have a few more mutas at your rally than your normal 11 even after you stop muta production and just grab one everytime you lose a muta.
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On December 02 2008 13:57 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
how he does he keep reinforcing the mutas while massing a lurk army?
it cud be a gradual process, like recycling weak mutas with fresh ones you know? while making some hydras and lurks on the way.
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wtf? he must be on 3 bases to get to lurks.. plus he cant mass that much because he has devoted to mutas getting upgrades and drone count is very low. A terran always knows when Z goes 2 hatch mutas bec of non stop muta harass + the time the mutas comes out and not to mention scaning Z's base once in a while.
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As long as you can pump drones you can get a third hatch at an expo before your spire finishes. He can't stop it theoretically because of the threat of mutas.
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On December 02 2008 13:48 ramen247 wrote:
yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push?
if they dont fuck up, yes.
no good zergs gonna produce lurk and muta simultaneously though, you wont have enough of either of them to stop any kind of mm attack. (unless of course terran got damaged early in which case it doesnt really matter either way).
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I tend to 2 hatch muta, gas after pool, 2 lings and sunks if he tries to move out, then straight muta/overlord until like 60ish supply while getting lurk tech and a third and fourth base. 8 lurks and your mutas can take almost any amount of m/m that he can save up, as long as he doesn't have really, really good sci control. Scourging the first sci vessel is crucial, otherwise irradiate harass is going to stop your mutas cold. After 2 evo chambers start melee and carapace, hive to ultra/defiler/crackling is nice, and so is hydra/guardian, although I tend to prefer ultraling over anything else because I usually end up losing too many defilers to irradiate. 3-3, get swarm, win game.
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On December 02 2008 15:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 13:48 ramen247 wrote:
yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push? if they dont fuck up, yes. no good zergs gonna produce lurk and muta simultaneously though, you wont have enough of either of them to stop any kind of mm attack. (unless of course terran got damaged early in which case it doesnt really matter either way).
=( ---> =/ gay. ty anyway.
so i need to get a faster fact now...
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Read this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83216
Although slightly off topic and not really containing any relevant BO information about the 2 hatch build, it gives some depth into why the 2 hatch came back into style (especially Plexa's post on page 2). But don't let it discourage you from learning the 2 hatch - it's a very powerful build and should be added to any zerg's arsenal. And good muta micro will bail you out of losses and allow you to come back more than one time.
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2hatch muta is power strategy!!
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On December 03 2008 13:00 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 15:41 IdrA wrote:On December 02 2008 13:48 ramen247 wrote:
yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push? if they dont fuck up, yes. no good zergs gonna produce lurk and muta simultaneously though, you wont have enough of either of them to stop any kind of mm attack. (unless of course terran got damaged early in which case it doesnt really matter either way). =( ---> =/ gay. ty anyway. so i need to get a faster fact now...
Don't be too quick though... Remember, cutting defences for tech might just as well screw you up even worse. Walking the edge, without falling down, is the preferred position of the defender.
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Braavos36402 Posts
ultimately you will need irradiate, all the turrets and mm movements and all that crap against muta harass is just a delay to get vessels. if the zerg is good you will not be able to kill the muta ball or move out while defending with mm or turrets, it just won't happen. you need vessel to kill/defend the ball and move out.
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Speaking of 2-hatch muta, someone posted a really good 2-hatch muta opening game on repdepot today:
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6743
This isn't a close game, but it showcases the power of 2-hatch muta.
EDIT: this is version 1.15.3 btw
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2 hatch muta works vs. toss when it isn't scouted. That means you can't go 12 hatch because his scout will easily see your lair timing. You want to go 12 pool and gas before expo, and still you will have to hurry and kill his scout so he doesn't see the lair. This will still be suspicious if he knows you haven't gotten ling speed, so 2 hatch is often a good follow up for a speedling build.
Of course there are times when he scouts you last or something and 12 pool will have lings out before he gets into your base, but that's literally never going to happen if you 12 hatch.
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EPT
