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On December 05 2011 13:33 xsksc wrote:
That's because I spent the first early hours of the game creating and participating in discussion. If you don't have discussion you can't pick apart peoples posts and analyse. That post of mine you quoted is from over 15 hours ago, it's way easier to scum hunt now we have all this content.
yeah you did, you were the first one to start the discussion with the policy lynches and I appreciate that. I actually like your response to what I said because it seems a lot like what you felt here
On December 04 2011 15:04 xsksc wrote:
Blazinghand, don't be so trigger-happy.
Day 1 always starts like this, we have nothing to talk about so we create discussions. People aren't posting because there's no meangingful discussion going on. I got some going about policy lynches, we've discussed that to death though. Nobody is "lurking" right now because there is no meaningful discussion going on.
People got called out during the start of the game (including myself) for only posting about policy lynches thus making us lurkers. There really wasn't much going on at that time and no real scum hunting was happening.
You were just inactive at the wrong time due to different time zones. So at the time that everyone was just beginning to scumhunt and post their reads you were absent. Now you've shown us your reads and done a pretty good job of explaining them.
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Yes, and I'd like to apologise again about the time difficulties. Lately I've been awake during the night and sleeping during the day. I blame skyrim!
I'll just forget about sleep today so I can go to sleep in the evening. Should fix it so I'm up during the day (GMT) for the rest of the game 
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I do wish that Tunkeg would elaborate more on the Hunch before that made him think you were scum, because after looking through your filter I don't see anything that would point towards it.
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That's why he's on my suspicions list. He changed some of his reads 5 posts after his first list, when almost nothing in the thread had changed, and had no analysis to back it up. If he's town I can't understand why he'd do that, it's scummy.
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Here is another quote that makes me fairly suspicious of Tunkeg :
On December 05 2011 05:30 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 05:05 Grackaroni wrote:
@Tunkeg: also since you're here. I am curious why you painted Ey215 town in your reads. He is somebody that I am unsure of right now and all you explained is that "his posts so far says town to me. He is balancing out Blazinghand." To be honest I did go abit wild with the coloring. I should perhaps have used more leaning town/leaning scum reads i my post. Anyways the reason I put ey215 as town was the feel I got from his posts. He posts his view about town-environment, he states his view about the risk of bandwagoning and that sort of stuff. All of which I consider pro-town posting. What I didn't incorperate in my analysis when posting the list was the defensive attitude he initially took against Blazinghand. Still my read on him is leaning town
This quote + his changing of opinion on xsksc without anything further happening in the thread make Tunkeg suspicious. Tunkeg has shown some inconsistencies between what he puts on his reads and what he actually feels.
@Blazinghand : You're my strongest town read and have shown that you're good at analyzing, can you give me you're opinion on Tunkeg once you get back from dinner.
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I was really hoping to read Adam's opinions before I went to sleep, but it is taking too long.
Would like to see more Adam/EB(less pissed off and emotional) and Tunkeg posts.
Good Night!
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On December 05 2011 14:33 Grackaroni wrote:
I was really hoping to read Adam's opinions before I went to sleep, but it is taking too long.
Would like to see more Adam/EB(less pissed off and emotional) and Tunkeg posts.
Good Night!
This took longer to format then I thought it would. Apologies.
My analysis:
Bbyte
+ Show Spoiler +Bbyte takes issue with some of the criticisms I also held of Velinath, but his vote seems reactionary to Velinath voting for him initially. Does not have much in the way of post volume so there really isn’t much to go on here. He seems reluctant to jump on the bandwagon that’s formed on me, which in itself is not scummy because I’ve made myself an easy target.
Blazinghand
+ Show Spoiler +Well I think I’ve already said my piece here. His aggression is ruffling feathers, that much I am sure. He has been consistent throughout the game in his attacks on people with low post counts and he opened the game with this mindset.
BroodKingEXE
+ Show Spoiler +BroodKingEXE is suspicious to say the least. He posts up a one-line analysis on half of the players present, not very much effort put in at all. Then 2 hours later, he fires a vote in my direction with no explanation given. At all ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12592641). After being pressed a little he gives his thoughts on my larger post aimed at BH’s aggressive style. He takes issue with the fact that I apparently miscounted the number of votes BH has put out. BH did in fact only vote 4 times but the 2nd vote was a correction on a misspelling of the 1st vote. Honestly put, this is a piss-weak reason for me to earn his vote. He also takes issue with my lack of identifying a key player. I stated in the very post he quoted that BH was just flinging his vote in any direction and I felt they had no weight, why would I then go ahead and identify him, as a key player if I thought his vote was weightless? ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12593121)
ElectricBlack
+ Show Spoiler +ElectricBlack has posted next to nothing so far but when he did post, boy has it created a storm. He says he would be more comfortable lynching Hassybaby, although gives no reasons at all. I’d like to hear the explanation for this (as would the rest of the town by the look of it). His snap at Blazinghand may be due to being fed up with the hounding he’s received thus far. While I don’t think he has conducted himself very well here, lets give him a chance to post his thoughts on Hassybaby in the morning and evaluate the merit of them.
Ey215
+ Show Spoiler +Ey215 has been pressed much like myself from the get-go and also reacted defensively. I cannot fault him for this as Blazinghand was being obnoxious towards him. The vote he places on me is understandable, but also unsupported. He claims to have no read on anyone at the moment and that I am probably the best candidate as a result (this is how bandwagons pickup speed..) ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12591630). After the ElectricBlack incident he applies ‘pressure’ (his vote) to EB. His votes seem to come without a great deal of support behind them, other then the fact that “everyone else was doing it”, this really presents me with a null read as he’s either a mafia getting momentum on a wagon or a townie sheeping. He was willing to give me the benefit of the doubt for a while; I will afford him the same courtesy.
Grackaroni
+ Show Spoiler +
Hassybaby
+ Show Spoiler +Hassybaby has very little to go on. He seems like a busy person and I can only take him at his word (much like everyone can only take me at mine) that he was busy with work and real life stuff. He then focuses in on BroodKingEXE for band wagoning me and for WIFOMing. I share his suspicions of BroodKingEXE, but I hope to see more. At the moment this is a null read.
Jaybrundage
+ Show Spoiler +Jay’s reads on me seem weak and effortless. He labels me as scum for ‘lurking’ and says I come off as happy to fly under the radar and just posting to keep up ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12590767). While, I’ll give him the lurking thing (lurking and inactivity look awfully similar), I don’t think id describe my play as flying under the radar. I misguidedly attacked everyone’s most confirmed townie and have launched myself right into the spotlight by doing so. This is not apathetic behaviour. These reads feel fabricated because I made myself an easy target due to my inactivity and less than stellar response to BH’s aggression. Jay even states here ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12583286) that lynching lurkers is not a good policy, yet has focused a majority of his attention on me… for lurking ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12592678) and I have even earned his vote for doing so. This is very inconsistent logic. Jay also posts for the sake of posting, even weaving idle bullshit in like mentioning xsksc’s spacing? What is the relevance of that to the game? The rest of his posts seem equally as half-hearted and filler.
Tunkeg
+ Show Spoiler +Tunkeg posted up some one-line analysis on the game earlier in the piece. His words were quite pointed and draw attention from almost everyone he ‘insulted’, behavior I wouldn't identify as scummy. After posting some more, he posts up another set of one-line analysis on each player in the game. His singling out of Hassybaby and xsksc strike me as quite odd, Hassybaby had not posted a thing and xsksc was being helpful. I do not see what he sees here and could use some further clarification from Tunkeg on how he has got to his 'scum reads' from whats been posted so far. His attack on Jay, to me, is justified, as I’ve covered in my “Jay” section.
Velinath
+ Show Spoiler +Another person who is reluctant to jump on my bandwagon and railroad me. He took the right meaning out of my post aimed at BH even after I insinuated that both of them might be mafia ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12592166). He votes for me, but avoids an OMGUS vote, which would probably not look out of place here. Originally, I had planned to criticize Velinath for his large posting content with marginal substance. He has since rectified this with solid, well thought out posts.
Xsksc
+ Show Spoiler +
Xtfftc
+ Show Spoiler +His odd explanation of lynching all liars comes off as circular and.. well, odd. He’s posted very little else besides tacking a vote (unfairly in my opinion) on xsksc. He takes issue with a statement I wrote “I am all for lynching anyone who scum slips or is caught in an outright lie” ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12591319). I still stand by this statement. He qualifies with: On December 05 2011 07:28 xtfftc wrote:
There's two problems with this quote. The first one is that this is exactly what mafia want. They want to focus on someone saying one stupid thing and lynch that person. Ask your coaches if you don't agree with me: lynching someone over a single "scumslip" tends to be main reason why towns lynch an innocent on Day 1.
The second is that he mixes a "scum slip" and "an outright lie". We had a lot of talk about LaL and a lot of you disagree with me. You want a strict policy on it and although I think it favours mafia, it can also help town, so it's okay. What is not okay is trying to tie "scumslipping" to the same policy without holding a proper discussion on what we consider to be a scumslip and what we consider to be someone overreacting over bad wording. This is very pro-mafia as it gives them an easy way to push for lynches.
You’d prefer we just let scum slip go until someone makes a whole bunch of them and then hang them? I’m sorry but that’s just plain unrealistic. Scum slips are rare and the odds of the same person making additional ones after a first one is next to nil. I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill, Xtfftc.
The TLDR version amounts to:
I have scum reads on both Jaybrundage and BloodKingEXE
I am willing to give ElectricBlack the benefit of the doubt until his next post.
Everyone else Ill consider "town"/null as I am not trusting enough to ever consider anyone 100% town.
As such,
##Vote: Jaybrundage
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On December 05 2011 12:24 Velinath wrote:
Why should I be lynched? What don't you like about the EB or Adam4167 cases, if anything? He said he'd post thoughts on the lynch discussion but I haven't heard anything yet (maybe a time zone thing, but we've talked a lot since his last post and he's been silent).
On December 05 2011 12:48 jaybrundage wrote:
Also i would like your input on the other cases Bbyte and why they dont appeal to you as much
The cases on Adam4167 and ElectricBlack look good now. However, both of them have promised to post their analysis and I'd expect that to change the situation. ElectricBlack's reaction seemed a bit rash but not necessarily scummy to me.
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Last comment of the night.
Our first vote should be for Adam. He is the only person who has made a flaw in his statement that is obvious. He was quick to blame other people's methods, when not even bothering to make sure the information he was using is correct.
+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On December 05 2011 01:38 Adam4167 wrote:On December 04 2011 21:39 Tunkeg wrote:
So are you trying to establish yourself as a boring townie by not posting anything or what?
Adam, a couple of questions for you:
What is your thoughts on Blazinghand's aggressiveness? How do you perceive him thus far? Is his play pro-town or anti-town?
Any thoughts on xsksc's play? Is he a key player in this game? If he is scum, what effect will that have on the game? If my lack of posting thus far has crowned me as a boring townie, I guess it’s a mantle I’ll wear; I had a Sunday off and decided to go out drinking. My thoughts on Blazinghands aggression so far is that I feel he is trying to generate discussion. However, I question whether he is trying too hard to establish himself as a townie by his badgering. This, coupled with his apparent buddy-buddy relationship with Velinath has me keeping a close eye on both of them as I find it strange that they are apparently “BFF’s” after only 12 hours of play. So to directly answer your question, Tunkeg, I find his behaviour suspicious and erring on the side of Anti-town. This is the main reason I want to vote for adam, when I first read this I realized that BH had only made four votes. The evidence he includes to back his statement is wrong, so that means that the statement although long as hastily thought out, not paying attention to what is going on, and therefore contributing as a towns member 5 separate votes in 12 hours is akin to spam and is just leading the town around in circles, rather than focusing on any one target. Xsksc is someone I’m more familiar with after close examination of the Newbie Mini Mafia thread. So far he has begun discussion, scolded Blazinghands reckless aggression and defended himself well when called out. Is he a key player in the game? Not yet, but neither is anyone else. This is also a bogus statement. He says that there are no major players in the game when he points out below that BH voted for half the players. To me that is a major move in itself. If he had read the forum at all he would have seen that BH has gotten the majority of players, including myself, to speak Is he pro-town? All signs are pointing towards yes. If he turns out to be mafia, id hope to think we can still catch him out and hang him even with his greater mafia experience over us. On December 04 2011 16:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Adam has correctly noted that there are no no-lynches in his sole post. Helpful, but not enormously so. Also, he's certainly awake since he's Australian. I'm gonna slap my vote on him and wait for him to contribute some more. Maybe he's eating or out or something, but hopefully this will get more than 1 post
Adam, I'd like to see you contributing to the discussion more. I'm heading to bed relatively soon, but when I wake up I hope to see a new post from you.
##Vote Adam4167
I don't necessarily think you're scum or that other people should vote for you, but you've only made one post, and that's simply not good enough.
Hurry up. As previously stated, I went out drinking. And after I finish this post, I'm going to need at least 6 hours to sleep it off. I feel that by flinging your vote in every direction, you have cheapened the weight of your vote when you eventually do decide to settle on a target. I also feel the need to point out again that you have had 5 separate votes in 12 hours, which is almost half of the players participating.You’ve caught my attention Blazinghand, don’t slip =).
His excuse about being hung over is also negated in this statement. Yet right after saying that his reaction would have been the same sober as buzzed he says that he needed a clearer head to come to a conclusion. Now I would think that after the first error filled comment he made he would be defending himself, but instead he comes out trying to say that his comment was not misguided sounds pretty fishy to me. Adam said he would have an analysis in and I have yet to hear.
On December 05 2011 11:30 Adam4167 wrote:
OK I am back. My unavailability was unfortunate but has now come to an end. I will be present and posting from this point out.
Firstly, before I thoroughly comb the thread, I feel like I need to respond to Blazinghand:
My reaction to your aggression, Blazinghand, was shitty and misguided. I am not going to blame alcohol as I would have reacted in a similar fashion had I been sober. I am defensive by nature. I questioned your motives, but with a clearer head I can only come to the conclusion that your motives are to generate posts from everybody and get people talking to draw out mistakes from scum.
Expect a thorough analysis in the coming hours. I have a lot of reading to catch up on.
As for the BE situation I feel like he definelty is a little fishy, but his moodiness alone should not be a reason to be voting him out. I feel that Adam is a much stronger choice and we should vote for him first. Some of you are saying that if he is a townsmember we should still lynch him for being a jerk. Well I disagree because it gives the mob one more day to decide who to take out. I still have not heard anything besides his being a jerk and his critism of BH's style. His being a jerk should not be the sole reason to lynch, especially if adam has more up against him.
Have a Good Night,
BroodKingEXE
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I never said I was hung over anywhere. I also admitted that my reaction was misguided - where did i say that "my comment was not misguided". You are damning me for using incorrect information and then doing the same thing yourself in the same sentence. As I stated in my post to BH: My actions were defensive and reactionary to his pressure on me and my outburst was born of anger, not rational thought.
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It's not so much about him being a jerk. His decision to spite town is obstructive to our agenda, very anti-town, and downright stupid. Regardless of aligment, it's a dumb thing to do. -_-
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I'm on my phone at lunch, so I'll be brief for now. I think that Bke is the easy lynch at the momenand Ipm glad we have bettee targets now. Byte is my top lurker and he'd make an okay lynch if we end up looking at the lurkers. Xskc looks a bit beteer but he still hasn't lived up to his early play.
I'll make sure not to throw away my votw for an unlikely candidate by voting for someone who wont get lynched like I did in xlvii and I encourage everyone to do the sa,e. Also, remember that last minute changes tend to help mafia. Out of the two best candidates I find Adam's dwfence much better (he is at least giving usomethimg to analyse), so I'll probably go for BE.
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On December 05 2011 10:42 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 10:40 ElectricBlack wrote:
I'd be much more comfortable lynching Hassybaby than any of the current candidates. I need to go to sleep now (it's well past midnight over here), I'll give details as for why this is in the morning. No. Vote. Don't wait, don't delay-- it's anti-town to do so. Cast your vote, even if you don't have time to explain.
This is incorrect. If you're going to call something anti-town, you need to make sure you give it a thorough think before you open your mouth.
Let's establish this: Writing a good case with explanations takes about 30-60 minutes to do. At the time I posted it was somewhere between 1 and 2 am UK time. I was never going to be able to post a good case in this time. So now that we've established I simply couldn't give a satisfactory explanation to my opinion, let's look at the options I had at the time.
a) Say that I feel suspicious of him, but not vote because I cannot back up my vote at this moment.
b) Vote him without any explanation
c) Don't say anything at all.
Remember, these are all the options I had available. Of course I got mad at you last night for being an asshole about me wanting to go to sleep, especially with plenty of time remaining in the day. Do you honestly think it actually benefits town if people start voting without explanation, only to promise some analysis later that may or may not be delivered?
Now re-read the situation, does picking option a) make me scum?
There is a reason at least two people asked you immediately why not voting was somehow anti-town. Of all the options available I think a) is actually the best option for giving town the most amount of information. The ideal situation is that I had been at home last night, but I was having a dinner and seeing a show at the opera with my wife, which basically ate up the entire evening.
The fact that you're leading this bandwagon makes it very unlikely you're scum, once again I stand by my opinion that your play doesn't fit at all with someone playing scum for the first time, which is why I'm trying to be as polite as possible when I point out why you're wrong.
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Not voting is one thing. Doing something out of spite is different.
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On December 05 2011 11:50 xsksc wrote:
Also, I will be voting for ElectricBlack, unless his defence is good I don't see a better lynch right now. Doing something to spite, in a game of mafia, is fucking dumb.
##Vote: ElectricBlack
Does it make me mafia, if so, explain why.
Am I supposed to read your post as "I don't know who we should lynch, and I don't want the responsibility of pushing a lynch, so I'm just going to try and lynch someone that did something controversial".
What does this make you?
Yes, I agree, you can actually make a case for me writing that post being dumb. But you cannot write any coherent case for me writing that post and thus I must be mafia. Do you even care if I'm mafia or not?
I don't think you do. The reasonable explanation to me being angry at Blazinghand is that it's 1-2 am my time, and he's calling me scum for doing something every guide/veteran player would suggest.
Don't vote without reasoning.
@Rest of town
Remember, the entire case against me is based on me refusing to vote without reasoning. That should tell you enough about how likely this endeavour is to succeed. If I get lynched I'm going to flip town, and you're going to have to look at how you came to the conclusion, probably the first town in history of mafia, that voting without reasoning is actually helpful to town in anyway.
The difference between a Blazinghand wanting to lynch me and not, is nothing but typing in a vote. I did tell you my intentions, and I gave you reasons as to why I didn't elaborate. I hope people understand they're supporting a case that hinges on literally just typing in a vote or not.
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On December 05 2011 18:35 xsksc wrote:
Not voting is one thing. Doing something out of spite is different.
Then answer me, am I mafia cause I did something out of spite to him? If so, why?
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On December 05 2011 12:24 Velinath wrote:
After reading EB's last two posts, it's past "I don't have time" and into the realm of "I'm going to deliberately obstruct the town". I want an explanation. If you're town aligned, what's the motive behind withholding information/a case from the town because you are having a disagreement with one person?
Regardless of how he flips, at the moment there had better be a damn good reason not to have voted and helped to generate discussion, past "Blazinghand pissed me off" - because that's simply not good enough.
I'll respond to you seperately because you asked me a direct question, although your points have been covered in my previous posts.
The reason I "withhold" the case is that it's not ready, and I'm not going to write it during the night. I explained this multiple times.
The reason I didn't vote is pretty obviously that voting without reason isn't helpful to anyone. It doesn't put on any pressure, it doesn't help convince anyone of my case.
I got mad at Blazinghand for attacking me with something I know is wrong. I didn't have time to post a case, and voting without reasoning is not good in any way.
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No, you're not supposed to read it like that. I said what you did was really anti-town, and it was dumb whatever your alignment is. If you're town, don't ever do something out of spite, it's stupid. If you're mafia, it's dumb too for obvious reasons.
If you are a townie, the responsibility is on YOU to not do dumb shit like that. It's your job to not get lynched.
I'm not pressuring you because you're an easy lynch, if you read my filter I've been transparent all game, I don't want town doing dumb stuff. If you're under pressure from someone, don't make an FU post and leave, it really doesn't make you look good.
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On December 05 2011 18:57 xsksc wrote:
No, you're not supposed to read it like that. I said what you did was really anti-town, and it was dumb whatever your alignment is. If you're town, don't ever do something out of spite, it's stupid. If you're mafia, it's dumb too for obvious reasons.
If you are a townie, the responsibility is on YOU to not do dumb shit like that. It's your job to not get lynched.
I'm not pressuring you because you're an easy lynch, if you read my filter I've been transparent all game, I don't want town doing dumb stuff. If you're under pressure from someone, don't make an FU post and leave, it really doesn't make you look good.
Why are you voting me if you don't think I am mafia?
Am I not understanding the game correctly? Isn't the game about finding and killing mafia? Not punishing players who do stuff you don't agree with...
I mean, I think it's equally, if not more, dumb for Blazinghands to call me terrible and dumb. Does it make him scum? Of course not, it makes me dislike him, but it says nothing about his alignment.
Now, again, you voted for me, so explain why I'm mafia. Anything else is unacceptable.
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EPT
