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On January 18 2024 07:19 yezzir88 wrote:
Serral gets another hilariously easy group (for him). What a surprise. Call me when he gets into a group like group D (where he would most likely not make it out)
Because he's got the #1 seed. So that means the next best player in his group is going to be the weakest 2nd best player of the group out of all the groups. That's what he's rewarded for getting #1.
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On January 19 2024 19:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 07:19 yezzir88 wrote:
Serral gets another hilariously easy group (for him). What a surprise. Call me when he gets into a group like group D (where he would most likely not make it out) Because he's got the #1 seed. So that means the next best player in his group is going to be the weakest 2nd best player of the group out of all the groups. That's what he's rewarded for getting #1.
Yes, but ByuN and Astrea also get incredibly easy groups and are lower seeds than #2 and #3. I would say that #3 seed (Dark) got the worst "reward" for being a high seed.
Clearly a different pairing system would have been fairer.
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No group of death
Anyone who thinks group D is needs to have their head shaked
herO has been playing absolutely trash for a year now
Maru dark Reynor will get out quite comfortably and easily
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On January 18 2024 08:57 Nakajin wrote:
Wow group D...
Hoping for Showtime to shake things up a bit, he really has some awefull luck with draws.
Also, I don't want to scare anyone, but the no-toss playoffs are quite possible.
Get that negatively out of here
Our boy stats and skillious will make it out of the groups
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On January 19 2024 20:11 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2024 19:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On January 18 2024 07:19 yezzir88 wrote:
Serral gets another hilariously easy group (for him). What a surprise. Call me when he gets into a group like group D (where he would most likely not make it out) Because he's got the #1 seed. So that means the next best player in his group is going to be the weakest 2nd best player of the group out of all the groups. That's what he's rewarded for getting #1. Yes, but ByuN and Astrea also get incredibly easy groups and are lower seeds than #2 and #3. I would say that #3 seed (Dark) got the worst "reward" for being a high seed. Clearly a different pairing system would have been fairer.
The concept of this way of seeding makes sense, the only thing is that it depends on how players ended up being ranked and how many EPT points they got. So in terms of the EPT points, these are the players who performed the strongest at EPT points and thus, whether we think seed #4 is weaker than say seed #10 might be true, but in an objective sense they didn't perform as well in the EPT tournaments and thus it would be reasonable to predict how they might perform in this EPT tournament.
I'm not sure what other pairing system you could use that would make it fairer, unless you were to do something like GSL group picks, but then players wouldn't pick based on EPT points. Or if the TOs organized it based on who they thought was strongest or would perform the best, but then there'd be much less incentive/reason to trying to perform well in the EPT circuit.
In the end, IMO it's still better than completely random. Though i honestly wouldn't mind completely random either for tournaments (just not for a circuit finale).
Seeding will never be perfectly fair, but just like how in GSL groups it would be very risky to try to strategically lose a match in the winners side to try to face an easier opponent and advance through losers, you similarly have a better chance at having an easy group if you try hard to get a high EPT rank than if you don't care as much. In this case Serral had a much more likely chance of having a weak 2nd player, and lower seeds have a chance of still being lucky but less so.
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I remember Serral getting the easiest Kato group a couple times when he wasn't the number 1 seed and people justified it as random draw lol. Now it's justified due to seeding though I'm not sure it's the same person making the arguments. The amount of events he's gotten the easiest group and/or first round bracket opponents in is really absurd though. Some things that stand out for me are at least 4 or 5 Katowices, a bunch of the COVID era season finals, some ASUS ROGs. First GSL vs the World opponent was Kelazhur. He's the most consistent player of all time regardless but I think at least some small part of that is due to his bracket and group draws.
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United States33712 Posts
Group D contestants seem amused
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On January 20 2024 00:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2024 20:11 Argonauta wrote:On January 19 2024 19:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On January 18 2024 07:19 yezzir88 wrote:
Serral gets another hilariously easy group (for him). What a surprise. Call me when he gets into a group like group D (where he would most likely not make it out) Because he's got the #1 seed. So that means the next best player in his group is going to be the weakest 2nd best player of the group out of all the groups. That's what he's rewarded for getting #1. Yes, but ByuN and Astrea also get incredibly easy groups and are lower seeds than #2 and #3. I would say that #3 seed (Dark) got the worst "reward" for being a high seed. Clearly a different pairing system would have been fairer. The concept of this way of seeding makes sense, the only thing is that it depends on how players ended up being ranked and how many EPT points they got. So in terms of the EPT points, these are the players who performed the strongest at EPT points and thus, whether we think seed #4 is weaker than say seed #10 might be true, but in an objective sense they didn't perform as well in the EPT tournaments and thus it would be reasonable to predict how they might perform in this EPT tournament. I'm not sure what other pairing system you could use that would make it fairer, unless you were to do something like GSL group picks, but then players wouldn't pick based on EPT points. Or if the TOs organized it based on who they thought was strongest or would perform the best, but then there'd be much less incentive/reason to trying to perform well in the EPT circuit. In the end, IMO it's still better than completely random. Though i honestly wouldn't mind completely random either for tournaments (just not for a circuit finale). Seeding will never be perfectly fair, but just like how in GSL groups it would be very risky to try to strategically lose a match in the winners side to try to face an easier opponent and advance through losers, you similarly have a better chance at having an easy group if you try hard to get a high EPT rank than if you don't care as much. In this case Serral had a much more likely chance of having a weak 2nd player, and lower seeds have a chance of still being lucky but less so.
I said it earlier, look at how GSL used to select groups, something like that would be essentially self-balancing and fair (maybe ditch the #1 seed swap though, that made things a little weird).
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There is just some weird randomness in term of the players grouping from each "tier", and this has been an ongoing issue from previous IEM tournament. Serral is #1 in his tier (also #1 overall), got matched with mostly #4 an #3 of the next tiers, while Dark and Maru got matched with all the #1 is just bizarre.
Group A: #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #2 - #2
Group B: #2- #1 - #3 - #2 - #4 - #4
Group C: #1 - #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #3
Group D: #3 - #3 - #1 - #1 - #1 - #1
If its seeded, then make it seeded balance all the way through.
Edit: Btw, can somebody confirm if the last round of the group stage will be Bo3 like usual or it will be Bo5?
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I would like to offer my gratitude to IEM for rigging the groups to help us finally get that Protoss patch after an IEM playoffs with 1 or 0 Protoss.
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On January 20 2024 18:16 tigera6 wrote:
There is just some weird randomness in term of the players grouping from each "tier", and this has been an ongoing issue from previous IEM tournament. Serral is #1 in his tier (also #1 overall), got matched with mostly #4 an #3 of the next tiers, while Dark and Maru got matched with all the #1 is just bizarre.
Group A: #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #2 - #2
Group B: #2- #1 - #3 - #2 - #4 - #4
Group C: #1 - #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #3
Group D: #3 - #3 - #1 - #1 - #1 - #1
If its seeded, then make it seeded balance all the way through.
Edit: Btw, can somebody confirm if the last round of the group stage will be Bo3 like usual or it will be Bo5?
While I would highly encourage ESL to finally do a fcking Groupdraw-Show like Riot, it is also not something that *can*t happened. Have you ever tried to roll groups with a dice? It is baffling how often you get results in a row you thought couldn't happen.
As for your question: Why would the last round of Group Stage be Bo5? This is Round-Robin, not Swiss or GSL
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On January 21 2024 00:32 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2024 18:16 tigera6 wrote:
There is just some weird randomness in term of the players grouping from each "tier", and this has been an ongoing issue from previous IEM tournament. Serral is #1 in his tier (also #1 overall), got matched with mostly #4 an #3 of the next tiers, while Dark and Maru got matched with all the #1 is just bizarre.
Group A: #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #2 - #2
Group B: #2- #1 - #3 - #2 - #4 - #4
Group C: #1 - #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #3
Group D: #3 - #3 - #1 - #1 - #1 - #1
If its seeded, then make it seeded balance all the way through.
Edit: Btw, can somebody confirm if the last round of the group stage will be Bo3 like usual or it will be Bo5? While I would highly encourage ESL to finally do a fcking Groupdraw-Show like Riot, it is also not something that *can*t happened. Have you ever tried to roll groups with a dice? It is baffling how often you get results in a row you thought couldn't happen. As for your question: Why would the last round of Group Stage be Bo5? This is Round-Robin, not Swiss or GSL
Not sure what you said have anything to do with my question, I fully realize its Round Robin, but its usually Bo3 in all rounds of the group. But I recently check the ESL webpage and its said Bo5 for Ro5 of the group stage. That could just be a typo but thats why I wanted to confirm.
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On January 21 2024 01:15 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2024 00:32 Balnazza wrote:On January 20 2024 18:16 tigera6 wrote:
There is just some weird randomness in term of the players grouping from each "tier", and this has been an ongoing issue from previous IEM tournament. Serral is #1 in his tier (also #1 overall), got matched with mostly #4 an #3 of the next tiers, while Dark and Maru got matched with all the #1 is just bizarre.
Group A: #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #2 - #2
Group B: #2- #1 - #3 - #2 - #4 - #4
Group C: #1 - #4 - #2 - #4 - #3 - #3
Group D: #3 - #3 - #1 - #1 - #1 - #1
If its seeded, then make it seeded balance all the way through.
Edit: Btw, can somebody confirm if the last round of the group stage will be Bo3 like usual or it will be Bo5? While I would highly encourage ESL to finally do a fcking Groupdraw-Show like Riot, it is also not something that *can*t happened. Have you ever tried to roll groups with a dice? It is baffling how often you get results in a row you thought couldn't happen. As for your question: Why would the last round of Group Stage be Bo5? This is Round-Robin, not Swiss or GSL Not sure what you said have anything to do with my question, I fully realize its Round Robin, but its usually Bo3 in all rounds of the group. But I recently check the ESL webpage and its said Bo5 for Ro5 of the group stage. That could just be a typo but thats why I wanted to confirm.
That bit of information would have been helpful. You have to admit, without context asking "is the last round of Round-Robin Bo5?" seems a bit...random.
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Group stages are almost worthless for helping the eventual winner, when you have single elimination for the rest of the tournament (all this chatter about group seedings is pretty pointless).
Why not run swiss tournaments? Seems the Champion's league is doing it, would also fix issues with groups like group D.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament
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On January 23 2024 02:20 LostUsername100 wrote:Group stages are almost worthless for helping the eventual winner, when you have single elimination for the rest of the tournament (all this chatter about group seedings is pretty pointless). Why not run swiss tournaments? Seems the Champion's league is doing it, would also fix issues with groups like group D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament
ESL already uses plenty of Swiss for their tournaments (yes yes, it isn't "true swiss"). Or are you proposing to hold the entire tournament in Swiss? That's super-anticlimatic and also probably more games than ESL is willing to do.
And I don't think the Champions League is using a Swiss System? They are using some very weird variation of Round-Robin, that is basically an americanisation of the system, meaning not every team plays against each other team the same amount of time - which is utter bs tbh.
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EPT
