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Clem just owned that game :O
Sick to see his TvP at this level.
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Scarlett looks so tired, still pulls out such a great game 1. Nice!
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Is this the final sign that toss has come to an end as a race?
I wonder how long maxpax can stay focused and motivated.
Sure, Trap won some things, finally, but all in all it is probably the case that toss will never win anything big in the future.
Maybe some young kids like maxpax still makes some money that they would NOT get working some boring job. But as an "older" player, playing toss cant be very lucrative...
I hope I am wrong.
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In every GSL-related tournament this year we had a Protoss except once. We had more different protoss players in those finals than any other race (three protoss vs. two zergs vs. one terran). Every GSL this year had three Protoss in the Ro8
Protoss isn't doing that bad really, Maru, Rogue and Dark in Korea and Serral/Clem in Europe are just a tad better than Trap or Zest.
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On November 13 2021 21:33 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2021 21:14 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 09:29 Pandain wrote:
Dream bracket. Legit 7 of the top ten players in the world here in the round of 8. And you can't even be mad with Scarlett, as BisuDagger said, she's the perpetual best underdog
Clem>Trap 3-2
Maru>Dark 3-1
Zest>Scarlett 3-0 (but at least a couple close ones)
Rogue>Serral 3-2
Maru>Clem 3-1
Zest>Rogue 3-2
Maru>Zest 4-2
You know we often talk about an age of parity, but even more importantly I think we have a *stable* age of parity. I would say for the last two full years yes many people could win any tournament, but only about 10 people, and the same people that is. Take Zest, Trap, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Cure, Maru, Clem, and Byun (less the latter now) and those people have won every single important championship in the past two years and likely will continue that way for the foreseeable future. Zest has not won a single tournament since 2017 Homestory cup, Byun has not won a Tournament since 2016. If you are trying to paint a picture of who is winning tournaments at least paint a honest one, Zergs win everything with some Terran sprinked in there and freakshow Trap who won some tournaments with questionable throws from his opponents, Serral cough Reynor cough, and I know liquipedia has his own terms of whats a premier tournament but don't kid yourselves people protoss still has not won a premier tournament in years. Protoss is still the highest earning race in 2021 though.
Don't know if that's even true, you don't link proof of your statement and even if it is true it is completely irrelevant. The amount of players in SC2 that are full time pro is extremely low, using statistics to gauge almost anything will give you the wrong picture
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On November 13 2021 22:36 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2021 21:14 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 09:29 Pandain wrote:
Dream bracket. Legit 7 of the top ten players in the world here in the round of 8. And you can't even be mad with Scarlett, as BisuDagger said, she's the perpetual best underdog
Clem>Trap 3-2
Maru>Dark 3-1
Zest>Scarlett 3-0 (but at least a couple close ones)
Rogue>Serral 3-2
Maru>Clem 3-1
Zest>Rogue 3-2
Maru>Zest 4-2
You know we often talk about an age of parity, but even more importantly I think we have a *stable* age of parity. I would say for the last two full years yes many people could win any tournament, but only about 10 people, and the same people that is. Take Zest, Trap, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Cure, Maru, Clem, and Byun (less the latter now) and those people have won every single important championship in the past two years and likely will continue that way for the foreseeable future. Zest has not won a single tournament since 2017 Homestory cup, Byun has not won a Tournament since 2016. If you are trying to paint a picture of who is winning tournaments at least paint a honest one, Zergs win everything with some Terran sprinked in there and freakshow Trap who won some tournaments with questionable throws from his opponents, Serral cough Reynor cough, and I know liquipedia has his own terms of whats a premier tournament but don't kid yourselves people protoss still has not won a premier tournament in years. Don't know what you count as a Premier tournament, but assuming you just count GSL: Since the last time a protoss (Stats) won a GSL at the start of 2017, terran has won 9 of it, Zerg won 5. Those Zerg-wins are divided between Rogue and Dark. The terrans are divided between Innovation, Gumiho, TY, Cure and Gumiho. If you count in WCS (pre-DreamHack Masters), IEM and BlizzCon you get a few more Zerg wins with soO, Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark, though obviously that was at a time when Serral and Reynor dominated the rest of the world. So while it is true that Protoss hasn't won any of the very prestigues tournaments in a while (though personally I think the Liquipedia Premier is accurate enough, so Protoss has won some stuff Super Tournament), saying "Zerg is winning everything" isn't really true either. Especially in GSL it was a lot of terran dominance with a few sprinkles of Dark and Rogue in there.
No it is true, the most dominant race in all sc2 eras has been Zerg or Terran and Protoss has dominated for short stints where they found a strong all inn to abuse or playstyles that took a little time to figure out, as soon is it is figured out Protoss performance across the board gets really poor, if you don't believe me just go look at results since WOL.
Let me put Protoss players life in perspective for you, you find a new strategy it works you get results Zergs or Terrans cry OP , Blizzard nerfs you or the strategy gets figured out and it is no longer effective. If Terran or Zerg knows what you are up to as a protoss you are by default at a disadvantage, hence why Protoss has never been a good performing race because they rely on trickery to get results, and at the highest level it is not hard to read and eventually you run out of options. As a Zerg player you can sit back and play purely reactive and just outgrow your opponent( means skill is more rewarded unlike Protoss where you rely more on luck and enemy making mistakes)
As for what's a Premier tournament:
IEM Katowice 170 000 USD first place, this is a premier tournament if anyone is confused(because of price pool and the difficulty of the tournament itself).
GSL CODE S 20000$ first place, highest competitive level of any region. Tournament system very brutal.
These are the only premier tournaments in SC2.
Liquipedia on sc2 premier tournaments: Premier Tournaments offer an outstanding prize pool, are frequently played out offline, and feature the best players from all over the world. They are commonly held by well-established franchises and are considered especially prestigious amongst the community.
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New aligulac predictions, now that it got half of its first predictions wrong.
Win Top 2 Top 4 Top 8
------------------------------------------------------
Maru 51.96% 19.73% 28.31% 0.00%
Rogue 24.63% 50.10% 25.27% 0.00%
Clem 22.02% 6.29% 71.69% 0.00%
Scarlett 1.39% 23.88% 74.73% 0.00%
Trap 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Dark 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Zest 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Serral 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
+ Show Spoiler + Clem 3 ┐
├──────── Clem 1 ┐
Trap 2 ┘ │
├──────── Maru 4 ┐
Maru 3 ┐ │ │
├──────── Maru 3 ┘ │
Dark 1 ┘ │
├─ Maru
Scarlett 3 ┐ │
├──── Scarlett 1 ┐ │
Zest 2 ┘ │ │
├─────── Rogue 3 ┘
Rogue 3 ┐ │
├─────── Rogue 3 ┘
Serral 1 ┘
Estimated by Aligulac. Modify.
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France12912 Posts
On November 14 2021 20:07 InfCereal wrote:New aligulac predictions, now that it got half of its first predictions wrong. Win Top 2 Top 4 Top 8
------------------------------------------------------
Maru 51.96% 19.73% 28.31% 0.00%
Rogue 24.63% 50.10% 25.27% 0.00%
Clem 22.02% 6.29% 71.69% 0.00%
Scarlett 1.39% 23.88% 74.73% 0.00%
Trap 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Dark 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Zest 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Serral 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00% Clem 3 ┐
├──────── Clem 1 ┐
Trap 2 ┘ │
├──────── Maru 4 ┐
Maru 3 ┐ │ │
├──────── Maru 3 ┘ │
Dark 1 ┘ │
├─ Maru
Scarlett 3 ┐ │
├──── Scarlett 1 ┐ │
Zest 2 ┘ │ │
├─────── Rogue 3 ┘
Rogue 3 ┐ │
├─────── Rogue 3 ┘
Serral 1 ┘
I would like that Maru victory but I am quite scared :x. Thankfully he plays his cross server match when it's still not too late in Korea, and both him and Rogue (if they were to meet in the finals) should be disadvantaged all the same by the hour
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On November 14 2021 20:07 InfCereal wrote:New aligulac predictions, now that it got half of its first predictions wrong. Win Top 2 Top 4 Top 8
------------------------------------------------------
Maru 51.96% 19.73% 28.31% 0.00%
Rogue 24.63% 50.10% 25.27% 0.00%
Clem 22.02% 6.29% 71.69% 0.00%
Scarlett 1.39% 23.88% 74.73% 0.00%
Trap 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Dark 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Zest 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
Serral 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00% Clem 3 ┐
├──────── Clem 1 ┐
Trap 2 ┘ │
├──────── Maru 4 ┐
Maru 3 ┐ │ │
├──────── Maru 3 ┘ │
Dark 1 ┘ │
├─ Maru
Scarlett 3 ┐ │
├──── Scarlett 1 ┐ │
Zest 2 ┘ │ │
├─────── Rogue 3 ┘
Rogue 3 ┐ │
├─────── Rogue 3 ┘
Serral 1 ┘
This looks a lot more reasonable.
But then again it now only has to make 3 somewhat easier predictions 
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On November 14 2021 09:53 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2021 22:36 Balnazza wrote:On November 13 2021 21:14 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 09:29 Pandain wrote:
Dream bracket. Legit 7 of the top ten players in the world here in the round of 8. And you can't even be mad with Scarlett, as BisuDagger said, she's the perpetual best underdog
Clem>Trap 3-2
Maru>Dark 3-1
Zest>Scarlett 3-0 (but at least a couple close ones)
Rogue>Serral 3-2
Maru>Clem 3-1
Zest>Rogue 3-2
Maru>Zest 4-2
You know we often talk about an age of parity, but even more importantly I think we have a *stable* age of parity. I would say for the last two full years yes many people could win any tournament, but only about 10 people, and the same people that is. Take Zest, Trap, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Cure, Maru, Clem, and Byun (less the latter now) and those people have won every single important championship in the past two years and likely will continue that way for the foreseeable future. Zest has not won a single tournament since 2017 Homestory cup, Byun has not won a Tournament since 2016. If you are trying to paint a picture of who is winning tournaments at least paint a honest one, Zergs win everything with some Terran sprinked in there and freakshow Trap who won some tournaments with questionable throws from his opponents, Serral cough Reynor cough, and I know liquipedia has his own terms of whats a premier tournament but don't kid yourselves people protoss still has not won a premier tournament in years. Don't know what you count as a Premier tournament, but assuming you just count GSL: Since the last time a protoss (Stats) won a GSL at the start of 2017, terran has won 9 of it, Zerg won 5. Those Zerg-wins are divided between Rogue and Dark. The terrans are divided between Innovation, Gumiho, TY, Cure and Gumiho. If you count in WCS (pre-DreamHack Masters), IEM and BlizzCon you get a few more Zerg wins with soO, Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark, though obviously that was at a time when Serral and Reynor dominated the rest of the world. So while it is true that Protoss hasn't won any of the very prestigues tournaments in a while (though personally I think the Liquipedia Premier is accurate enough, so Protoss has won some stuff Super Tournament), saying "Zerg is winning everything" isn't really true either. Especially in GSL it was a lot of terran dominance with a few sprinkles of Dark and Rogue in there. No it is true, the most dominant race in all sc2 eras has been Zerg or Terran and Protoss has dominated for short stints where they found a strong all inn to abuse or playstyles that took a little time to figure out, as soon is it is figured out Protoss performance across the board gets really poor, if you don't believe me just go look at results since WOL. Let me put Protoss players life in perspective for you, you find a new strategy it works you get results Zergs or Terrans cry OP , Blizzard nerfs you or the strategy gets figured out and it is no longer effective. If Terran or Zerg knows what you are up to as a protoss you are by default at a disadvantage, hence why Protoss has never been a good performing race because they rely on trickery to get results, and at the highest level it is not hard to read and eventually you run out of options. As a Zerg player you can sit back and play purely reactive and just outgrow your opponent( means skill is more rewarded unlike Protoss where you rely more on luck and enemy making mistakes) As for what's a Premier tournament: IEM Katowice 170 000 USD first place, this is a premier tournament if anyone is confused(because of price pool and the difficulty of the tournament itself). GSL CODE S 20000$ first place, highest competitive level of any region. Tournament system very brutal. These are the only premier tournaments in SC2. Liquipedia on sc2 premier tournaments: Premier Tournaments offer an outstanding prize pool, are frequently played out offline, and feature the best players from all over the world. They are commonly held by well-established franchises and are considered especially prestigious amongst the community.
Okay, so lets do the math, race wins per tournament (I count the former WCS Global Finals as a Premier tournament too, if you don't mind)
GSL:
Zerg 11x
Terran 16x
Protoss 11x
IEM (World Finals only):
Zerg 4x
Terran 3x
Protoss 4x
(though you can argue if the IEM World Finals from 2011 really are as prestigeous as today)
WCS/Blizzcon:
Zerg 4x (though I don't know if Life is still allowed to carry this title)
Terran 1x
Protoss 3x
Total:
Zerg: 19x
Terran 20x
Protoss 18x
So yes, if you see it like this (and ignore other big tournaments we had in the past), then yes, Protoss wins the least - by one. Also terran completly dominantes the scene...also by one.
The simple truth is probably more like this:
Protoss, especially in korea, just got the short end of the stick. A lot of top protoss like Rain, PartinG, Classic, hero, Stats, sOs and many more went inactive or had to do their military service. The remaining ones are basically Zest (who is always a bit dicey) and Trap, who had to step up over the last few years. Terran also had to bleed quite a lot with Innovation, TY, but with Maru they could keep atleast one of the top 3 terrans of all time and also Cure, who stepped up (while ByuN kinda stepped down). Zerg got lucky with keeping Dark and Rogue, while only losing soO tbh. Zerg looks so dominant in Korea, because the two most dominant zergs are still around. Do you know the last Zerg outside of soO/Rogue/Dark who was in a GSL final? That would be ByuL in 2015. Same year btw as the last time a zerg outside of this three won a GSL in Life.
And that dominance got stronger when you factor in that two of the three best foreigner players are zerg. But the foreign scene traditionally had strong zerg players, like Stephano, Snute, Scarlett or even Nerchio and VortiX. Dunno why, but that's how we roll I guess.
You may say Protoss is so weak, but there is no real evidence for that. In fact, you probably could make that case more or less for Zerg. Just look at the GSL this year alone: Rogue and Dark had to carry all the weight for Zerg at the Ro8, except for one season were DRG got into it and was destroyed by Bunny 3-0. Protoss and Terran had way more different competitors. That Zerg won two of the three honestly tells you more about Rogues and Darks skill than anything else.
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On November 14 2021 23:07 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 09:53 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 22:36 Balnazza wrote:On November 13 2021 21:14 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 09:29 Pandain wrote:
Dream bracket. Legit 7 of the top ten players in the world here in the round of 8. And you can't even be mad with Scarlett, as BisuDagger said, she's the perpetual best underdog
Clem>Trap 3-2
Maru>Dark 3-1
Zest>Scarlett 3-0 (but at least a couple close ones)
Rogue>Serral 3-2
Maru>Clem 3-1
Zest>Rogue 3-2
Maru>Zest 4-2
You know we often talk about an age of parity, but even more importantly I think we have a *stable* age of parity. I would say for the last two full years yes many people could win any tournament, but only about 10 people, and the same people that is. Take Zest, Trap, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Cure, Maru, Clem, and Byun (less the latter now) and those people have won every single important championship in the past two years and likely will continue that way for the foreseeable future. Zest has not won a single tournament since 2017 Homestory cup, Byun has not won a Tournament since 2016. If you are trying to paint a picture of who is winning tournaments at least paint a honest one, Zergs win everything with some Terran sprinked in there and freakshow Trap who won some tournaments with questionable throws from his opponents, Serral cough Reynor cough, and I know liquipedia has his own terms of whats a premier tournament but don't kid yourselves people protoss still has not won a premier tournament in years. Don't know what you count as a Premier tournament, but assuming you just count GSL: Since the last time a protoss (Stats) won a GSL at the start of 2017, terran has won 9 of it, Zerg won 5. Those Zerg-wins are divided between Rogue and Dark. The terrans are divided between Innovation, Gumiho, TY, Cure and Gumiho. If you count in WCS (pre-DreamHack Masters), IEM and BlizzCon you get a few more Zerg wins with soO, Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark, though obviously that was at a time when Serral and Reynor dominated the rest of the world. So while it is true that Protoss hasn't won any of the very prestigues tournaments in a while (though personally I think the Liquipedia Premier is accurate enough, so Protoss has won some stuff Super Tournament), saying "Zerg is winning everything" isn't really true either. Especially in GSL it was a lot of terran dominance with a few sprinkles of Dark and Rogue in there. No it is true, the most dominant race in all sc2 eras has been Zerg or Terran and Protoss has dominated for short stints where they found a strong all inn to abuse or playstyles that took a little time to figure out, as soon is it is figured out Protoss performance across the board gets really poor, if you don't believe me just go look at results since WOL. Let me put Protoss players life in perspective for you, you find a new strategy it works you get results Zergs or Terrans cry OP , Blizzard nerfs you or the strategy gets figured out and it is no longer effective. If Terran or Zerg knows what you are up to as a protoss you are by default at a disadvantage, hence why Protoss has never been a good performing race because they rely on trickery to get results, and at the highest level it is not hard to read and eventually you run out of options. As a Zerg player you can sit back and play purely reactive and just outgrow your opponent( means skill is more rewarded unlike Protoss where you rely more on luck and enemy making mistakes) As for what's a Premier tournament: IEM Katowice 170 000 USD first place, this is a premier tournament if anyone is confused(because of price pool and the difficulty of the tournament itself). GSL CODE S 20000$ first place, highest competitive level of any region. Tournament system very brutal. These are the only premier tournaments in SC2. Liquipedia on sc2 premier tournaments: Premier Tournaments offer an outstanding prize pool, are frequently played out offline, and feature the best players from all over the world. They are commonly held by well-established franchises and are considered especially prestigious amongst the community. Okay, so lets do the math, race wins per tournament (I count the former WCS Global Finals as a Premier tournament too, if you don't mind) GSL: Zerg 11x Terran 16x Protoss 11x IEM (World Finals only): Zerg 4x Terran 3x Protoss 4x (though you can argue if the IEM World Finals from 2011 really are as prestigeous as today) WCS/Blizzcon: Zerg 4x (though I don't know if Life is still allowed to carry this title) Terran 1x Protoss 3x Total: Zerg: 19x Terran 20x Protoss 18x So yes, if you see it like this (and ignore other big tournaments we had in the past), then yes, Protoss wins the least - by one. Also terran completly dominantes the scene...also by one. The simple truth is probably more like this: Protoss, especially in korea, just got the short end of the stick. A lot of top protoss like Rain, PartinG, Classic, hero, Stats, sOs and many more went inactive or had to do their military service. The remaining ones are basically Zest (who is always a bit dicey) and Trap, who had to step up over the last few years. Terran also had to bleed quite a lot with Innovation, TY, but with Maru they could keep atleast one of the top 3 terrans of all time and also Cure, who stepped up (while ByuN kinda stepped down). Zerg got lucky with keeping Dark and Rogue, while only losing soO tbh. Zerg looks so dominant in Korea, because the two most dominant zergs are still around. Do you know the last Zerg outside of soO/Rogue/Dark who was in a GSL final? That would be ByuL in 2015. Same year btw as the last time a zerg outside of this three won a GSL in Life. And that dominance got stronger when you factor in that two of the three best foreigner players are zerg. But the foreign scene traditionally had strong zerg players, like Stephano, Snute, Scarlett or even Nerchio and VortiX. Dunno why, but that's how we roll I guess. You may say Protoss is so weak, but there is no real evidence for that. In fact, you probably could make that case more or less for Zerg. Just look at the GSL this year alone: Rogue and Dark had to carry all the weight for Zerg at the Ro8, except for one season were DRG got into it and was destroyed by Bunny 3-0. Protoss and Terran had way more different competitors. That Zerg won two of the three honestly tells you more about Rogues and Darks skill than anything else.
Yeah mostly in eu we have no real top4 toss maybe showtime on a good form like this season and the best kr tosses arent really that consistent, with dark and rogue they at least were pretty consistently ro4-win material.
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I got myself right for the first post of this thread.
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On November 14 2021 23:07 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 09:53 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 22:36 Balnazza wrote:On November 13 2021 21:14 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 09:29 Pandain wrote:
Dream bracket. Legit 7 of the top ten players in the world here in the round of 8. And you can't even be mad with Scarlett, as BisuDagger said, she's the perpetual best underdog
Clem>Trap 3-2
Maru>Dark 3-1
Zest>Scarlett 3-0 (but at least a couple close ones)
Rogue>Serral 3-2
Maru>Clem 3-1
Zest>Rogue 3-2
Maru>Zest 4-2
You know we often talk about an age of parity, but even more importantly I think we have a *stable* age of parity. I would say for the last two full years yes many people could win any tournament, but only about 10 people, and the same people that is. Take Zest, Trap, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Cure, Maru, Clem, and Byun (less the latter now) and those people have won every single important championship in the past two years and likely will continue that way for the foreseeable future. Zest has not won a single tournament since 2017 Homestory cup, Byun has not won a Tournament since 2016. If you are trying to paint a picture of who is winning tournaments at least paint a honest one, Zergs win everything with some Terran sprinked in there and freakshow Trap who won some tournaments with questionable throws from his opponents, Serral cough Reynor cough, and I know liquipedia has his own terms of whats a premier tournament but don't kid yourselves people protoss still has not won a premier tournament in years. Don't know what you count as a Premier tournament, but assuming you just count GSL: Since the last time a protoss (Stats) won a GSL at the start of 2017, terran has won 9 of it, Zerg won 5. Those Zerg-wins are divided between Rogue and Dark. The terrans are divided between Innovation, Gumiho, TY, Cure and Gumiho. If you count in WCS (pre-DreamHack Masters), IEM and BlizzCon you get a few more Zerg wins with soO, Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark, though obviously that was at a time when Serral and Reynor dominated the rest of the world. So while it is true that Protoss hasn't won any of the very prestigues tournaments in a while (though personally I think the Liquipedia Premier is accurate enough, so Protoss has won some stuff Super Tournament), saying "Zerg is winning everything" isn't really true either. Especially in GSL it was a lot of terran dominance with a few sprinkles of Dark and Rogue in there. No it is true, the most dominant race in all sc2 eras has been Zerg or Terran and Protoss has dominated for short stints where they found a strong all inn to abuse or playstyles that took a little time to figure out, as soon is it is figured out Protoss performance across the board gets really poor, if you don't believe me just go look at results since WOL. Let me put Protoss players life in perspective for you, you find a new strategy it works you get results Zergs or Terrans cry OP , Blizzard nerfs you or the strategy gets figured out and it is no longer effective. If Terran or Zerg knows what you are up to as a protoss you are by default at a disadvantage, hence why Protoss has never been a good performing race because they rely on trickery to get results, and at the highest level it is not hard to read and eventually you run out of options. As a Zerg player you can sit back and play purely reactive and just outgrow your opponent( means skill is more rewarded unlike Protoss where you rely more on luck and enemy making mistakes) As for what's a Premier tournament: IEM Katowice 170 000 USD first place, this is a premier tournament if anyone is confused(because of price pool and the difficulty of the tournament itself). GSL CODE S 20000$ first place, highest competitive level of any region. Tournament system very brutal. These are the only premier tournaments in SC2. Liquipedia on sc2 premier tournaments: Premier Tournaments offer an outstanding prize pool, are frequently played out offline, and feature the best players from all over the world. They are commonly held by well-established franchises and are considered especially prestigious amongst the community. Okay, so lets do the math, race wins per tournament (I count the former WCS Global Finals as a Premier tournament too, if you don't mind) GSL: Zerg 11x Terran 16x Protoss 11x IEM (World Finals only): Zerg 4x Terran 3x Protoss 4x (though you can argue if the IEM World Finals from 2011 really are as prestigeous as today) WCS/Blizzcon: Zerg 4x (though I don't know if Life is still allowed to carry this title) Terran 1x Protoss 3x Total: Zerg: 19x Terran 20x Protoss 18x So yes, if you see it like this (and ignore other big tournaments we had in the past), then yes, Protoss wins the least - by one. Also terran completly dominantes the scene...also by one. The simple truth is probably more like this: Protoss, especially in korea, just got the short end of the stick. A lot of top protoss like Rain, PartinG, Classic, hero, Stats, sOs and many more went inactive or had to do their military service. The remaining ones are basically Zest (who is always a bit dicey) and Trap, who had to step up over the last few years. Terran also had to bleed quite a lot with Innovation, TY, but with Maru they could keep atleast one of the top 3 terrans of all time and also Cure, who stepped up (while ByuN kinda stepped down). Zerg got lucky with keeping Dark and Rogue, while only losing soO tbh. Zerg looks so dominant in Korea, because the two most dominant zergs are still around. Do you know the last Zerg outside of soO/Rogue/Dark who was in a GSL final? That would be ByuL in 2015. Same year btw as the last time a zerg outside of this three won a GSL in Life. And that dominance got stronger when you factor in that two of the three best foreigner players are zerg. But the foreign scene traditionally had strong zerg players, like Stephano, Snute, Scarlett or even Nerchio and VortiX. Dunno why, but that's how we roll I guess. You may say Protoss is so weak, but there is no real evidence for that. In fact, you probably could make that case more or less for Zerg. Just look at the GSL this year alone: Rogue and Dark had to carry all the weight for Zerg at the Ro8, except for one season were DRG got into it and was destroyed by Bunny 3-0. Protoss and Terran had way more different competitors. That Zerg won two of the three honestly tells you more about Rogues and Darks skill than anything else.
There are many factors that go into the win ratio's you just linked, first of I'm not even sure they are accurate.
Majority of protoss big wins was early in SC2 history like when the game was still being figured out and MC was so good at finding abusive playstyles as Protoss he managed to take several championships. sOs and Parting also have a lot of their wins early same for Rain who's last big result was in 2015 I believe.
Either way majority of the wins on your list are protoss wins from the f irst 1-3 years of SC2 history, as time goes on Protoss performance just keeps getting worse and worse.
So while I know some of you people love to link your little numbers but you gotta take everthing into consideration. everything is not always as it seems.
So I'm sorry but you make a completely mute point and basically shoot yourself in the foot with this argument.
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France12912 Posts
On November 16 2021 15:04 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 23:07 Balnazza wrote:On November 14 2021 09:53 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 22:36 Balnazza wrote:On November 13 2021 21:14 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 09:29 Pandain wrote:
Dream bracket. Legit 7 of the top ten players in the world here in the round of 8. And you can't even be mad with Scarlett, as BisuDagger said, she's the perpetual best underdog
Clem>Trap 3-2
Maru>Dark 3-1
Zest>Scarlett 3-0 (but at least a couple close ones)
Rogue>Serral 3-2
Maru>Clem 3-1
Zest>Rogue 3-2
Maru>Zest 4-2
You know we often talk about an age of parity, but even more importantly I think we have a *stable* age of parity. I would say for the last two full years yes many people could win any tournament, but only about 10 people, and the same people that is. Take Zest, Trap, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Cure, Maru, Clem, and Byun (less the latter now) and those people have won every single important championship in the past two years and likely will continue that way for the foreseeable future. Zest has not won a single tournament since 2017 Homestory cup, Byun has not won a Tournament since 2016. If you are trying to paint a picture of who is winning tournaments at least paint a honest one, Zergs win everything with some Terran sprinked in there and freakshow Trap who won some tournaments with questionable throws from his opponents, Serral cough Reynor cough, and I know liquipedia has his own terms of whats a premier tournament but don't kid yourselves people protoss still has not won a premier tournament in years. Don't know what you count as a Premier tournament, but assuming you just count GSL: Since the last time a protoss (Stats) won a GSL at the start of 2017, terran has won 9 of it, Zerg won 5. Those Zerg-wins are divided between Rogue and Dark. The terrans are divided between Innovation, Gumiho, TY, Cure and Gumiho. If you count in WCS (pre-DreamHack Masters), IEM and BlizzCon you get a few more Zerg wins with soO, Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark, though obviously that was at a time when Serral and Reynor dominated the rest of the world. So while it is true that Protoss hasn't won any of the very prestigues tournaments in a while (though personally I think the Liquipedia Premier is accurate enough, so Protoss has won some stuff Super Tournament), saying "Zerg is winning everything" isn't really true either. Especially in GSL it was a lot of terran dominance with a few sprinkles of Dark and Rogue in there. No it is true, the most dominant race in all sc2 eras has been Zerg or Terran and Protoss has dominated for short stints where they found a strong all inn to abuse or playstyles that took a little time to figure out, as soon is it is figured out Protoss performance across the board gets really poor, if you don't believe me just go look at results since WOL. Let me put Protoss players life in perspective for you, you find a new strategy it works you get results Zergs or Terrans cry OP , Blizzard nerfs you or the strategy gets figured out and it is no longer effective. If Terran or Zerg knows what you are up to as a protoss you are by default at a disadvantage, hence why Protoss has never been a good performing race because they rely on trickery to get results, and at the highest level it is not hard to read and eventually you run out of options. As a Zerg player you can sit back and play purely reactive and just outgrow your opponent( means skill is more rewarded unlike Protoss where you rely more on luck and enemy making mistakes) As for what's a Premier tournament: IEM Katowice 170 000 USD first place, this is a premier tournament if anyone is confused(because of price pool and the difficulty of the tournament itself). GSL CODE S 20000$ first place, highest competitive level of any region. Tournament system very brutal. These are the only premier tournaments in SC2. Liquipedia on sc2 premier tournaments: Premier Tournaments offer an outstanding prize pool, are frequently played out offline, and feature the best players from all over the world. They are commonly held by well-established franchises and are considered especially prestigious amongst the community. Okay, so lets do the math, race wins per tournament (I count the former WCS Global Finals as a Premier tournament too, if you don't mind) GSL: Zerg 11x Terran 16x Protoss 11x IEM (World Finals only): Zerg 4x Terran 3x Protoss 4x (though you can argue if the IEM World Finals from 2011 really are as prestigeous as today) WCS/Blizzcon: Zerg 4x (though I don't know if Life is still allowed to carry this title) Terran 1x Protoss 3x Total: Zerg: 19x Terran 20x Protoss 18x So yes, if you see it like this (and ignore other big tournaments we had in the past), then yes, Protoss wins the least - by one. Also terran completly dominantes the scene...also by one. The simple truth is probably more like this: Protoss, especially in korea, just got the short end of the stick. A lot of top protoss like Rain, PartinG, Classic, hero, Stats, sOs and many more went inactive or had to do their military service. The remaining ones are basically Zest (who is always a bit dicey) and Trap, who had to step up over the last few years. Terran also had to bleed quite a lot with Innovation, TY, but with Maru they could keep atleast one of the top 3 terrans of all time and also Cure, who stepped up (while ByuN kinda stepped down). Zerg got lucky with keeping Dark and Rogue, while only losing soO tbh. Zerg looks so dominant in Korea, because the two most dominant zergs are still around. Do you know the last Zerg outside of soO/Rogue/Dark who was in a GSL final? That would be ByuL in 2015. Same year btw as the last time a zerg outside of this three won a GSL in Life. And that dominance got stronger when you factor in that two of the three best foreigner players are zerg. But the foreign scene traditionally had strong zerg players, like Stephano, Snute, Scarlett or even Nerchio and VortiX. Dunno why, but that's how we roll I guess. You may say Protoss is so weak, but there is no real evidence for that. In fact, you probably could make that case more or less for Zerg. Just look at the GSL this year alone: Rogue and Dark had to carry all the weight for Zerg at the Ro8, except for one season were DRG got into it and was destroyed by Bunny 3-0. Protoss and Terran had way more different competitors. That Zerg won two of the three honestly tells you more about Rogues and Darks skill than anything else. There are many factors that go into the win ratio's you just linked, first of I'm not even sure they are accurate. Majority of protoss big wins was early in SC2 history like when the game was still being figured out and MC was so good at finding abusive playstyles as Protoss he managed to take several championships. sOs and Parting also have a lot of their wins early same for Rain who's last big result was in 2015 I believe. Either way majority of the wins on your list are protoss wins from the f irst 1-3 years of SC2 history, as time goes on Protoss performance just keeps getting worse and worse. So while I know some of you people love to link your little numbers but you gotta take everthing into consideration. everything is not always as it seems. So I'm sorry but you make a completely mute point and basically shoot yourself in the foot with this argument.
Why would you need other arguments than the plain truth that the top 10 protoss won more money than the top 10 terrans / zergs? I think when taking into account all players from a race it’s gonna be even more one sided towards protoss, but these numbers are only available on liquipedia DB and not liquipedia directly afaik.
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On November 16 2021 15:04 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 23:07 Balnazza wrote:On November 14 2021 09:53 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 22:36 Balnazza wrote:On November 13 2021 21:14 Drahkn wrote:On November 13 2021 09:29 Pandain wrote:
Dream bracket. Legit 7 of the top ten players in the world here in the round of 8. And you can't even be mad with Scarlett, as BisuDagger said, she's the perpetual best underdog
Clem>Trap 3-2
Maru>Dark 3-1
Zest>Scarlett 3-0 (but at least a couple close ones)
Rogue>Serral 3-2
Maru>Clem 3-1
Zest>Rogue 3-2
Maru>Zest 4-2
You know we often talk about an age of parity, but even more importantly I think we have a *stable* age of parity. I would say for the last two full years yes many people could win any tournament, but only about 10 people, and the same people that is. Take Zest, Trap, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Cure, Maru, Clem, and Byun (less the latter now) and those people have won every single important championship in the past two years and likely will continue that way for the foreseeable future. Zest has not won a single tournament since 2017 Homestory cup, Byun has not won a Tournament since 2016. If you are trying to paint a picture of who is winning tournaments at least paint a honest one, Zergs win everything with some Terran sprinked in there and freakshow Trap who won some tournaments with questionable throws from his opponents, Serral cough Reynor cough, and I know liquipedia has his own terms of whats a premier tournament but don't kid yourselves people protoss still has not won a premier tournament in years. Don't know what you count as a Premier tournament, but assuming you just count GSL: Since the last time a protoss (Stats) won a GSL at the start of 2017, terran has won 9 of it, Zerg won 5. Those Zerg-wins are divided between Rogue and Dark. The terrans are divided between Innovation, Gumiho, TY, Cure and Gumiho. If you count in WCS (pre-DreamHack Masters), IEM and BlizzCon you get a few more Zerg wins with soO, Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark, though obviously that was at a time when Serral and Reynor dominated the rest of the world. So while it is true that Protoss hasn't won any of the very prestigues tournaments in a while (though personally I think the Liquipedia Premier is accurate enough, so Protoss has won some stuff Super Tournament), saying "Zerg is winning everything" isn't really true either. Especially in GSL it was a lot of terran dominance with a few sprinkles of Dark and Rogue in there. No it is true, the most dominant race in all sc2 eras has been Zerg or Terran and Protoss has dominated for short stints where they found a strong all inn to abuse or playstyles that took a little time to figure out, as soon is it is figured out Protoss performance across the board gets really poor, if you don't believe me just go look at results since WOL. Let me put Protoss players life in perspective for you, you find a new strategy it works you get results Zergs or Terrans cry OP , Blizzard nerfs you or the strategy gets figured out and it is no longer effective. If Terran or Zerg knows what you are up to as a protoss you are by default at a disadvantage, hence why Protoss has never been a good performing race because they rely on trickery to get results, and at the highest level it is not hard to read and eventually you run out of options. As a Zerg player you can sit back and play purely reactive and just outgrow your opponent( means skill is more rewarded unlike Protoss where you rely more on luck and enemy making mistakes) As for what's a Premier tournament: IEM Katowice 170 000 USD first place, this is a premier tournament if anyone is confused(because of price pool and the difficulty of the tournament itself). GSL CODE S 20000$ first place, highest competitive level of any region. Tournament system very brutal. These are the only premier tournaments in SC2. Liquipedia on sc2 premier tournaments: Premier Tournaments offer an outstanding prize pool, are frequently played out offline, and feature the best players from all over the world. They are commonly held by well-established franchises and are considered especially prestigious amongst the community. Okay, so lets do the math, race wins per tournament (I count the former WCS Global Finals as a Premier tournament too, if you don't mind) GSL: Zerg 11x Terran 16x Protoss 11x IEM (World Finals only): Zerg 4x Terran 3x Protoss 4x (though you can argue if the IEM World Finals from 2011 really are as prestigeous as today) WCS/Blizzcon: Zerg 4x (though I don't know if Life is still allowed to carry this title) Terran 1x Protoss 3x Total: Zerg: 19x Terran 20x Protoss 18x So yes, if you see it like this (and ignore other big tournaments we had in the past), then yes, Protoss wins the least - by one. Also terran completly dominantes the scene...also by one. The simple truth is probably more like this: Protoss, especially in korea, just got the short end of the stick. A lot of top protoss like Rain, PartinG, Classic, hero, Stats, sOs and many more went inactive or had to do their military service. The remaining ones are basically Zest (who is always a bit dicey) and Trap, who had to step up over the last few years. Terran also had to bleed quite a lot with Innovation, TY, but with Maru they could keep atleast one of the top 3 terrans of all time and also Cure, who stepped up (while ByuN kinda stepped down). Zerg got lucky with keeping Dark and Rogue, while only losing soO tbh. Zerg looks so dominant in Korea, because the two most dominant zergs are still around. Do you know the last Zerg outside of soO/Rogue/Dark who was in a GSL final? That would be ByuL in 2015. Same year btw as the last time a zerg outside of this three won a GSL in Life. And that dominance got stronger when you factor in that two of the three best foreigner players are zerg. But the foreign scene traditionally had strong zerg players, like Stephano, Snute, Scarlett or even Nerchio and VortiX. Dunno why, but that's how we roll I guess. You may say Protoss is so weak, but there is no real evidence for that. In fact, you probably could make that case more or less for Zerg. Just look at the GSL this year alone: Rogue and Dark had to carry all the weight for Zerg at the Ro8, except for one season were DRG got into it and was destroyed by Bunny 3-0. Protoss and Terran had way more different competitors. That Zerg won two of the three honestly tells you more about Rogues and Darks skill than anything else. There are many factors that go into the win ratio's you just linked, first of I'm not even sure they are accurate. Majority of protoss big wins was early in SC2 history like when the game was still being figured out and MC was so good at finding abusive playstyles as Protoss he managed to take several championships. sOs and Parting also have a lot of their wins early same for Rain who's last big result was in 2015 I believe. Either way majority of the wins on your list are protoss wins from the f irst 1-3 years of SC2 history, as time goes on Protoss performance just keeps getting worse and worse. So while I know some of you people love to link your little numbers but you gotta take everthing into consideration. everything is not always as it seems. So I'm sorry but you make a completely mute point and basically shoot yourself in the foot with this argument.
You are right, actually just looking at the wins doesn't mean much. For a comprehensive analyzis you probably need to look at every Top 16 ever - but forgive me, that seems a bit too much work me considering I'm going against the argument "nah, Protoss feels weak".
The last time protoss won a GSL was 2017, that isn't ancient history. Since then atleast once a year a protoss was in a GSL final. Since 2017 in EVERY IEM (not Kattowice) there was a Protoss in every final - yes, they lost all of then, but there is no statistical rule that says Protoss had to win even one of them.
That goes even more for BlizzCon. Yes, the last time Protoss won was 2015 with sOs, but since it is just once a year, you just can't expect even distribution between races.
And your time argument would be a thing if Protoss wasn't still winning stuff (like Super Tournament). If Protoss was clearly that much worse (but only on the finals I guess?), Trap wouldn't be able to win even that.
When there are three major tournaments in a row without any Protoss in the Ro8, then you can start arguing if Protoss has a problem. But until then, find better arguments...
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