On May 15 2020 17:06 Olli wrote: I actually also disagree with the Flash, Parting, Life group being #1 group of death. It was Maru, Soulkey, Dear, Zest early in 2014. They were actually the best Zerg, Terran, Protoss at the time and the guy who just all-killed SKT in a Proleague finals and went on to royal road the GSL.
Yup, the current best zerg, best terran, and two best protoss (we just didn't know Zest was the best yet). Also had the champions of the last three seasons (Soulkey, Maru, Dear) and then Zest who ended up winning that season itself.
No question it's the all time group of death as far as skill goes. It just wasn't as hyped because Life/Flash/PartinG/INno are all more popular.
On May 15 2020 16:35 Edpayasugo wrote: Really looking forward to this group.
The infamous 2013 Code S Group featuring Life, Parting, Innovation and Flash is the greatest example of category #2. But we could sub-divide category #2 even further: In some of such groups, every player could reasonably be crowned champion at the tournament's end. In others, three players stick out (such as Life, Parting and Innovation in the aforementioned example) while the fourth seems just a bit out of place. Three, though, is often enough.
Disagree on this, at the time FlaSh was considered a top two Terran and had posted better HoTS individual results than INnoVation, and the Group was really considered a 4 way group of death.
This is actually one of the things the 'hardcore' fan sect of SC2 fought about the most: was Flash actually good or insanely overhyped due to his reputation? I'm still on team overrated (Flash definitely got better as time went along, but his inability to ever make the Code S RO8 is really glaring)
Agree, but that is all hindsight, IMO, at the time, Flash had topped his ro32 group including eventual winner Soulkey and come second at MLG just a couple of months before, beating INnoVationin the semis, the KT ace in proleague, and was considered the top Terran
On May 15 2020 17:06 Olli wrote: I actually also disagree with the Flash, Parting, Life group being #1 group of death. It was Maru, Soulkey, Dear, Zest early in 2014. They were actually the best Zerg, Terran, Protoss at the time and the guy who just all-killed SKT in a Proleague finals and went on to royal road the GSL.
Yup, the current best zerg, best terran, and two best protoss (we just didn't know Zest was the best yet). Also had the champions of the last three seasons (Soulkey, Maru, Dear) and then Zest who ended up winning that season itself.
No question it's the all time group of death as far as skill goes. It just wasn't as hyped because Life/Flash/PartinG/INno are all more popular.
The only one of those that wasn't really arguable was Maru tbh. Dear had some serious competition in sOs (in particular, if we apply hindsight such as with saying "Zest ended up winning GSL later that season", sOs won IEM Katowice a week after this particular group of death) and obviously Rain. And for Zerg, Life was having a strong phase at the time (and soO was starting to build momentum).
It's a great group of death, don't get me wrong. But I think it's pretty comparable Life/Flash/PartinG/Inno and Dark/Classic/soO/Inno. Those are S-Tier groups of death for the periods they occurred in.
On May 15 2020 16:35 Edpayasugo wrote: Really looking forward to this group.
The infamous 2013 Code S Group featuring Life, Parting, Innovation and Flash is the greatest example of category #2. But we could sub-divide category #2 even further: In some of such groups, every player could reasonably be crowned champion at the tournament's end. In others, three players stick out (such as Life, Parting and Innovation in the aforementioned example) while the fourth seems just a bit out of place. Three, though, is often enough.
Disagree on this, at the time FlaSh was considered a top two Terran and had posted better HoTS individual results than INnoVation, and the Group was really considered a 4 way group of death.
This is actually one of the things the 'hardcore' fan sect of SC2 fought about the most: was Flash actually good or insanely overhyped due to his reputation? I'm still on team overrated (Flash definitely got better as time went along, but his inability to ever make the Code S RO8 is really glaring)
Agree, but that is all hindsight, IMO, at the time, Flash had topped his ro32 group including eventual winner Soulkey and come second at MLG just a couple of months before, beating INnoVationin the semis, the KT ace in proleague, and was considered the top Terran
I can't find the TL preview from the Group, but these are fun, such exciting times
On May 15 2020 16:35 Edpayasugo wrote: Really looking forward to this group.
The infamous 2013 Code S Group featuring Life, Parting, Innovation and Flash is the greatest example of category #2. But we could sub-divide category #2 even further: In some of such groups, every player could reasonably be crowned champion at the tournament's end. In others, three players stick out (such as Life, Parting and Innovation in the aforementioned example) while the fourth seems just a bit out of place. Three, though, is often enough.
Disagree on this, at the time FlaSh was considered a top two Terran and had posted better HoTS individual results than INnoVation, and the Group was really considered a 4 way group of death.
This is actually one of the things the 'hardcore' fan sect of SC2 fought about the most: was Flash actually good or insanely overhyped due to his reputation? I'm still on team overrated (Flash definitely got better as time went along, but his inability to ever make the Code S RO8 is really glaring)
He might have been overyped but 2013 was still the longest period of strength of Flash's SC2 career. It's unfortunate it didn't really get reflected in his individual results past MLG, but I do think having a better Proleague record than Innovation that year speaks for itself to some extent as well.
Flash's SC2 career is an unfortunate story of underachievement in the face of pressure tbh. In his good phases he was really scary as was acknowledged by his peers. But ultimately it was always him who crumbled and not them. So in the end he only had 1 Korean league tournament playoff appearance, which ended in him getting reverse swept in a TvT by Last, in a tournament that's really only remembered for Rain winning it.
On May 15 2020 16:35 Edpayasugo wrote: Really looking forward to this group.
The infamous 2013 Code S Group featuring Life, Parting, Innovation and Flash is the greatest example of category #2. But we could sub-divide category #2 even further: In some of such groups, every player could reasonably be crowned champion at the tournament's end. In others, three players stick out (such as Life, Parting and Innovation in the aforementioned example) while the fourth seems just a bit out of place. Three, though, is often enough.
Disagree on this, at the time FlaSh was considered a top two Terran and had posted better HoTS individual results than INnoVation, and the Group was really considered a 4 way group of death.
This is actually one of the things the 'hardcore' fan sect of SC2 fought about the most: was Flash actually good or insanely overhyped due to his reputation? I'm still on team overrated (Flash definitely got better as time went along, but his inability to ever make the Code S RO8 is really glaring)
He might have been overyped but 2013 was still the longest period of strength of Flash's SC2 career. It's unfortunate it didn't really get reflected in his individual results past MLG, but I do think having a better Proleague record than Innovation that year speaks for itself to some extent as well.
Flash's SC2 career is an unfortunate story of underachievement in the face of pressure tbh. In his good phases he was really scary as was acknowledged by his peers. But ultimately it was always him who crumbled and not them.
I never loved Life more than when he crushed Flash at MLG Fall
On May 15 2020 16:35 Edpayasugo wrote: Really looking forward to this group.
The infamous 2013 Code S Group featuring Life, Parting, Innovation and Flash is the greatest example of category #2. But we could sub-divide category #2 even further: In some of such groups, every player could reasonably be crowned champion at the tournament's end. In others, three players stick out (such as Life, Parting and Innovation in the aforementioned example) while the fourth seems just a bit out of place. Three, though, is often enough.
Disagree on this, at the time FlaSh was considered a top two Terran and had posted better HoTS individual results than INnoVation, and the Group was really considered a 4 way group of death.
This is actually one of the things the 'hardcore' fan sect of SC2 fought about the most: was Flash actually good or insanely overhyped due to his reputation? I'm still on team overrated (Flash definitely got better as time went along, but his inability to ever make the Code S RO8 is really glaring)
He might have been overyped but 2013 was still the longest period of strength of Flash's SC2 career. It's unfortunate it didn't really get reflected in his individual results past MLG, but I do think having a better Proleague record than Innovation that year speaks for itself to some extent as well.
Flash's SC2 career is an unfortunate story of underachievement in the face of pressure tbh. In his good phases he was really scary as was acknowledged by his peers. But ultimately it was always him who crumbled and not them.
I never loved Life more than when he crushed Flash at MLG Fall
Well what happened with Life later on couldn't have hurt you that much then.
Also there's some sort of laugh to be had about Flash's only Korean league playoff appearance being a 2-3 reverse sweep against Last in a tournament nobody really talks about other than to say "Rain won an OSL".
On May 15 2020 14:04 Htime wrote: RagnaroK is now the only chance to get two Zergs into the Ro8 after the weak showings of soO and Solar, but this is not the group that is going to let that happen.
we could've had Rogue in the ro8 if he was smart enough to know Scarlett was going to cheese him, we all expected it except for Rogue lol
On May 15 2020 16:35 Edpayasugo wrote: Really looking forward to this group.
The infamous 2013 Code S Group featuring Life, Parting, Innovation and Flash is the greatest example of category #2. But we could sub-divide category #2 even further: In some of such groups, every player could reasonably be crowned champion at the tournament's end. In others, three players stick out (such as Life, Parting and Innovation in the aforementioned example) while the fourth seems just a bit out of place. Three, though, is often enough.
Disagree on this, at the time FlaSh was considered a top two Terran and had posted better HoTS individual results than INnoVation, and the Group was really considered a 4 way group of death.
This is actually one of the things the 'hardcore' fan sect of SC2 fought about the most: was Flash actually good or insanely overhyped due to his reputation? I'm still on team overrated (Flash definitely got better as time went along, but his inability to ever make the Code S RO8 is really glaring)
Flash was good, had he played Protoss, probably godlike IMO. But never the BW Flash which is... weird, because many stated, that SC2 is easier than BW
On May 15 2020 14:30 Nakajin wrote: The G5L final dream begin, here's to hopping INno and Maru delivers!
I was wondering if anyone was thinking of potential hype. Maru vs Inno, dueling for the G5L. One Bo7 to crown the GOAT.
Feels a bit forced to count INno's GSL vs The World but not Maru's Super Tournament just for the sake of G5L
If it was good enough for them to make Mvp's G5L trophy in the first place, it's good enough now.
If they say GSL vs The World was good enough, then that's fair (even though personally I wouldn't count it). But then to say that Super Tournament isn't is odd.
There's just no real argument for both Maru and INno to be sitting on 4 each. It's either 5-4 or 4-3.
On May 15 2020 14:30 Nakajin wrote: The G5L final dream begin, here's to hopping INno and Maru delivers!
I was wondering if anyone was thinking of potential hype. Maru vs Inno, dueling for the G5L. One Bo7 to crown the GOAT.
Feels a bit forced to count INno's GSL vs The World but not Maru's Super Tournament just for the sake of G5L
If it was good enough for them to make Mvp's G5L trophy in the first place, it's good enough now.
If they say GSL vs The World was good enough, then that's fair (even though personally I wouldn't count it). But then to say that Super Tournament isn't is odd.
There's just no real argument for both Maru and INno to be sitting on 4 each. It's either 5-4 or 4-3.
yea especially when GSL vs the World includes fan votes and invites lol, it's just a bunch of showmatches, Super Tournament is actually a real tournament with real qualifiers
On May 15 2020 14:30 Nakajin wrote: The G5L final dream begin, here's to hopping INno and Maru delivers!
I was wondering if anyone was thinking of potential hype. Maru vs Inno, dueling for the G5L. One Bo7 to crown the GOAT.
Feels a bit forced to count INno's GSL vs The World but not Maru's Super Tournament just for the sake of G5L
If it was good enough for them to make Mvp's G5L trophy in the first place, it's good enough now.
If they say GSL vs The World was good enough, then that's fair (even though personally I wouldn't count it). But then to say that Super Tournament isn't is odd.
There's just no real argument for both Maru and INno to be sitting on 4 each. It's either 5-4 or 4-3.
yea especially when GSL vs the World includes fan votes and invites lol, it's just a bunch of showmatches, Super Tournament is actually a real tournament with real qualifiers
It doesn't make sense to me either, but Afreeca has made it pretty clear that's the way it is. They showed the G5L trophy in the context of Inno during 2018 Season 1. And they obviously didn't hand Maru the G5L trophy after the Super Tournament.
On May 15 2020 14:30 Nakajin wrote: The G5L final dream begin, here's to hopping INno and Maru delivers!
I was wondering if anyone was thinking of potential hype. Maru vs Inno, dueling for the G5L. One Bo7 to crown the GOAT.
Feels a bit forced to count INno's GSL vs The World but not Maru's Super Tournament just for the sake of G5L
If it was good enough for them to make Mvp's G5L trophy in the first place, it's good enough now.
If they say GSL vs The World was good enough, then that's fair (even though personally I wouldn't count it). But then to say that Super Tournament isn't is odd.
There's just no real argument for both Maru and INno to be sitting on 4 each. It's either 5-4 or 4-3.
yea especially when GSL vs the World includes fan votes and invites lol, it's just a bunch of showmatches, Super Tournament is actually a real tournament with real qualifiers
It doesn't make sense to me either, but Afreeca has made it pretty clear that's the way it is. They showed the G5L trophy in the context of Inno during 2018 Season 1. And they obviously didn't hand Maru the G5L trophy after the Super Tournament.
they probably just forgot lol, now they're trying to retcon out the Super Tournament what's so "Super" about it if it counts less than every other offline tournament that GSL has ever run? they should just give Maru the G5L as well as a G6L trophy next time he wins
On May 15 2020 14:30 Nakajin wrote: The G5L final dream begin, here's to hopping INno and Maru delivers!
I was wondering if anyone was thinking of potential hype. Maru vs Inno, dueling for the G5L. One Bo7 to crown the GOAT.
Feels a bit forced to count INno's GSL vs The World but not Maru's Super Tournament just for the sake of G5L
If it was good enough for them to make Mvp's G5L trophy in the first place, it's good enough now.
If they say GSL vs The World was good enough, then that's fair (even though personally I wouldn't count it). But then to say that Super Tournament isn't is odd.
There's just no real argument for both Maru and INno to be sitting on 4 each. It's either 5-4 or 4-3.
yea especially when GSL vs the World includes fan votes and invites lol, it's just a bunch of showmatches, Super Tournament is actually a real tournament with real qualifiers
It doesn't make sense to me either, but Afreeca has made it pretty clear that's the way it is. They showed the G5L trophy in the context of Inno during 2018 Season 1. And they obviously didn't hand Maru the G5L trophy after the Super Tournament.
they probably just forgot lol, now they're trying to retcon out the Super Tournament what's so "Super" about it if it counts less than every other tournament that GSL has ever run? they should just give Maru the G5L as well as a G6L trophy next time he wins
I doubt it, they don't count the Super Tournament when they show medal counts during player intros. I don't think players get a GSL pin for it either. Not sure whether they are displayed on the wall either.
If anything I imagine they would prefer to stick to Code S only, but they're forced to include GSL vs the World because GOM originally included it when they made the trophy for Mvp.
EPT
(Flash definitely got better as time went along, but his inability to ever make the Code S RO8 is really glaring)
