• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 05:09
CET 11:09
KST 19:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Dark completes military service, returns to SC211[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage19Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?2Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175
StarCraft 2
General
Dark completes military service, returns to SC2 Greetings.. No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Dark returns! GSL CK #7 4v4 Team Battle (Nov 19) soO & FanTaSy return! SC2 Kevin Scrim 4v4 (Nov 16) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Korean players' earnings Hit New All-Time High! SOOP Hosts SC1 & SC2 Event Tournament: Kevin Scrim
Tourneys
[BSL23] Ro16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Bisu's Team vs Shuttle's Team 2026-11-14
Strategy
Pluto's TvP 5Marine 2Medic Push Simple Questions, Simple Answers Infested Terran strategies in 2026 Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Free Space RTS Game, optimised f. Phone/Tablet etc List of Game Threads The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread Trading/Investing Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 12853 users

EG releases Ho Joon “PuMa” Lee - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
718 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 36 Next All
Ratch!
Profile Joined June 2012
Peru258 Posts
March 15 2013 08:25 GMT
#241
I don't get why he is being released at the begining of a new game.
Cokefreak
Profile Joined June 2011
Finland8096 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-15 08:28:06
March 15 2013 08:27 GMT
#242
On March 15 2013 17:25 Ratch! wrote:
I don't get why he is being released at the begining of a new game.

Then you did not bother reading the (bolded part in the) OP.
They tried to negotiate a new contract but it didn't turn out well enough for PuMa.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
March 15 2013 08:27 GMT
#243
God, TeamLiquid has become such a cesspool of idiocy. You have an announcement like this, and half of the thread is filled with complete dumbasses talking about firing Machine, incontrol, idra, etc. If you're completely lacking in the ability to comprehend the most basic of business actions, you shouldn't even be posting here.



And I'm really, really sorry to see Puma leave EG. He was one of my absolute favourite players to watch - his army micro was always such a pleasure to see - and I always hoped to see him return to form in tournaments. Maybe he'll still achieve success again, but if not, I hope these last two years have been good to him.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-15 08:31:55
March 15 2013 08:28 GMT
#244
On March 15 2013 17:25 blackone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2013 17:23 dabom88 wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:17 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:00 bittman wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:57 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote:
And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.


That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.


Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?

No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.

They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.

I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.

And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.

They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
bGr.MetHiX
Profile Joined February 2011
Bulgaria511 Posts
March 15 2013 08:29 GMT
#245
love the statement by EG. sounds honest and elaborates on the dilemma as much as a sc2 fan would like to.
Top50 GM EU Protoss from Bulgaria. Streaming with commentary : www.twitch.tv/hwbgmethix
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 15 2013 08:29 GMT
#246
On March 15 2013 16:49 xsnac wrote:
i dont like this becose :

idra is slumping yet i dont think his contract gets lower .
when a player is slumping you help him not force him ... for idra you get a sport psihologist . for puma you lower his income rly ?? i start hating eg now


IdrA is not slumping on the EG value card. He is as visible on the scene as ever, and possibly more with all the Razer shows, ITG's and other appearances. It's just that he's not winning stuff just now. But the fact that he's one of the last people to take out the GSL champion in a Bo3 says he is still a force to be reckoned with. And this translates into massive visibility. Just consider, Idra v Minigun in the MLG showmatches (results-wise a slumping player versus a player with 0 results) drew in the largest view count of any evening...
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
KoRStarvid
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden767 Posts
March 15 2013 08:30 GMT
#247
On March 15 2013 17:25 blackone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2013 17:23 dabom88 wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:17 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:00 bittman wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:57 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote:
And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.


That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.


Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?

No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.

They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.

I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.

They're not gonna write in a press release that Puma didn't have a selling personality, that would be incredibly unprofessional to attack a former employee's person. The reason they keep Idra, Incontrol and the likes is that they are valuable personalities, extremely good PR, and good for team morale. Puma wasn't. They don't need to write that in a press realease. Grow up.
Ratch!
Profile Joined June 2012
Peru258 Posts
March 15 2013 08:30 GMT
#248
On March 15 2013 17:27 Cokefreak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2013 17:25 Ratch! wrote:
I don't get why he is being released at the begining of a new game.

Then you did not bother reading the (bolded part in the) OP.
They tried to negotiate a new contract but it didn't turn out well enough for PuMa.


Sorry if i can't express myself correctly. I ment, maybe they could give him another chance since HOTS is just starting.
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
March 15 2013 08:30 GMT
#249
On March 15 2013 14:14 Jaaaaasper wrote:
That leaves them in some serious line up trouble for pl and any other team league. EG on had thorzain on their lineup for terran, and taeja is not in top form for fpl, things look even worse egtl in proleague. Sad to see him leave eg, wonder who is going to pick him up this time.


I don't think that losing someone who went 1-7 is really going to hurt their line up.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Sumahi
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Guam5609 Posts
March 15 2013 08:30 GMT
#250
I'm not surprised by this. Given his performances it was only a matter of time until he was released or asked for a change of scene.
Startale <3, ST_July <3, HongUn <3, Savior <3, Gretorp <3, Nada <3, Rainbow <3, Ret <3, Squirtle <3, Bomber <3
Proseat
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Germany5113 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-15 09:41:52
March 15 2013 08:30 GMT
#251
I'm actually surprised EG have been this patient with him in all this time, especially when it is revealed that he was one of the highest paid players on the team. From the perspective of an outsider looking in, seeing him in all those IEG interview videos at the team house and then his actual performance in Proleague when he was sent out, it really seemed like he had become complacent and was not anymore putting in as much effort as he used to.

In light of this, I'm quite astonished that Puma would not be a little more realistic and accept less pay reflecting his recent performance more aptly, but still get the chance to be sent to foreign events to prove himself again. I doubt he will ever get a better deal anywhere else. He never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.

If his release means that there will now be more money available for better players (and a prominent coach) to improve the situation for EG-TL in Proleague, then I see this as a most welcome step taken and look forward to things to come.

Either way, all the best to Puma in whatever will be next for him in life.
The Rise and Fall of SlayerS -- a timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=378097
NKB
Profile Joined February 2012
United Kingdom608 Posts
March 15 2013 08:31 GMT
#252
Wow, I was not expecting this. I really likes Puma on EG, its gonna be strange hearing him under a different team now But anyways, lets hope Puma gets picked up by a good team soon so we can see more of him :D
Some times you just gotta wish...
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
March 15 2013 08:32 GMT
#253
It's a classic case of a guy getting paid too much too soon. Happens all the time. Especially in the gaming industry.

There's a lesson here, guys. The more money you make, the higher the expectations are, the bigger the target is on you back and the more expendable you become.
Xiss
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden8 Posts
March 15 2013 08:32 GMT
#254
I wounder why not Incontrol? imo Incontrol has not been that good as Puma has been
Zidane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1692 Posts
March 15 2013 08:32 GMT
#255
puma wanted moar monies? i could go 1-7 in proleague for free
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
March 15 2013 08:33 GMT
#256
On March 15 2013 17:28 dabom88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2013 17:25 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:23 dabom88 wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:17 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:00 bittman wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:57 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote:
And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.


That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.


Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?

No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.

They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.

I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.

And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.

They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.

So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
KoRStarvid
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden767 Posts
March 15 2013 08:35 GMT
#257
On March 15 2013 17:33 blackone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2013 17:28 dabom88 wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:25 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:23 dabom88 wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:17 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:00 bittman wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:57 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote:
And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.


That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.


Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?

No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.

They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.

I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.

And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.

They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.

So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?

And you didn't care to read my reply to you? Some things you just don't say in official press. This is business, dude, not kindergarten.
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
March 15 2013 08:35 GMT
#258
On March 15 2013 17:30 KoRStarvid wrote:
They're not gonna write in a press release that Puma didn't have a selling personality, that would be incredibly unprofessional to attack a former employee's person. The reason they keep Idra, Incontrol and the likes is that they are valuable personalities, extremely good PR, and good for team morale. Puma wasn't. They don't need to write that in a press realease. Grow up.


They don't need to to anything, and I don't need to either. But when someone writes bullshit, I'm free to talk about it, and no amount of money they make changes that.
Jacmert
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada1709 Posts
March 15 2013 08:35 GMT
#259
I have to admit, as an EG-TL Proleague fan, there's a part of me that's happy to see Puma part ways with EG. He was having a very troubled time in Proleague, and perhaps he has the skill that would have enabled him to bounce back, but seeing him being put on the field by @EGtrotRC over and over again up to a 0-6 record (over other, more eligible teammates) was personally painful to watch as a fan. Now that it's HotS, perhaps he could have been given another chance, but I'm sure EG (and perhaps Puma) had considered that and thought it wasn't the best option.

At the same time, however, I wish Puma well and especially after reading the great write-up and teammate testimonials on the EG press page, he truly did have a remarkable record and run in Wings of Liberty at his prime - http://evilgeniuses.net/eg-releases-ho-joon-puma-lee/

On March 15 2013 14:14 HeeroFX wrote:
I was thinking Machine, and Huk would be the first to go honestly.

I dunno about Machine, but Huk is still performing decently well (he actually got out of his Up/Down group in GSL most recently). And who knows what shape he is going into HotS. Imma gonna tell you guys, "I told you so!" if he beats Innovation this Friday / today at MLG Dallas (but as almost anyone would tell you, that's a bit of a long shot).
Plat Support Main #believe
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-15 08:37:19
March 15 2013 08:35 GMT
#260
On March 15 2013 17:33 blackone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2013 17:28 dabom88 wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:25 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:23 dabom88 wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:17 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 17:00 bittman wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:57 blackone wrote:
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote:
And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.


That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.


Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?

No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.

They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.

I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.

And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.

They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.

So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?

Please enlighten us on what you feel is a "discrepancy". Give backed-up arguments, not general statements.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 36 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
19:00
Weekly #155 (PatchesSC Mod)
CranKy Ducklings27
CranKy Ducklings SOOP7
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Codebar 45
ByuN 25
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 2121
Shuttle 875
FanTaSy 580
Hyuk 415
Larva 333
firebathero 297
hero 267
Soulkey 221
Light 183
actioN 140
[ Show more ]
Killer 113
Mind 94
ggaemo 60
ToSsGirL 32
Bale 29
Free 28
Creator 28
Sharp 25
Aegong 22
Pusan 21
910 20
NaDa 17
sorry 17
ZerO 14
HiyA 13
yabsab 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
Barracks 9
Last 8
Counter-Strike
fl0m4243
SPUNJ414
kennyS339
Other Games
Fuzer 161
ViBE42
ZerO(Twitch)4
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 11
[ Show 10 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 13
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• ChaeLyn 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
1h 51m
SHIN vs Rogue
ByuN vs Solar
MaxPax vs TBD
herO vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
IPSL
6h 51m
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
BSL
9h 51m
Artosis vs Dewalt
Ret vs Tech
SOOP
23h 51m
soO vs FanTaSy
WardiTV Weekly
1d 1h
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
GSL
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
KCM Race Survival
4 days
RSL Revival
6 days
BSL
6 days
eOnzErG vs StRyKeR
Cross vs JDConan
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-14
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 591
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
IEM Kraków 2027
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.