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On October 24 2010 11:02 Hyren wrote:
I'm so happy that the panel came out and said the the TvP match-up needs reworking because early T>P, late P>T. Overall they were much more specific in their answers than I expected and didn't try to give people the run around. They seem to know what they are doing despite what people seem try to make them out to be.
Yep, they seem to know what they are doing.
On October 24 2010 11:02 Hyren wrote:
Too bad some of the question askers were complete idiots, eh?
Its sad, true, but these people are everywhere.
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Q: Offline play?
A: Maybe, people might hack achieves.
Was this question referring to multiplayer LAN? That answer is completely retarded.
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On October 24 2010 21:47 f0rk wrote:Was this question referring to multiplayer LAN? That answer is completely retarded.
It was more concerning playing single player offline I think. Really had nothing to do about LAN.
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On October 24 2010 21:58 LittleeD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 21:47 f0rk wrote:Q: Offline play?
A: Maybe, people might hack achieves. Was this question referring to multiplayer LAN? That answer is completely retarded. It was more concerning playing single player offline I think. Really had nothing to do about LAN.
I doubt it, since you already can play campaign offline in guest mode.
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On October 24 2010 22:12 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 21:58 LittleeD wrote:
It was more concerning playing single player offline I think. Really had nothing to do about LAN.
I doubt it, since you already can play campaign offline in guest mode.
No, actually, the question was specifically that he wanted to work on the achievements in offline mode, and then connect online and "update my achievements"
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Yeah, otherwise people might be forced to exploit ladders to get achieves, ohwait
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Damn, I really severely underestimated just how awesome the balance team is, and just how much data they go through to bring us a good game
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United States12257 Posts
We talked to Dr. Menke after the panel and got some pretty critical information. We really want to get specifics and they're not completely willing to part with that information yet. I'll be making corrections to our posts either today or when I get home tomorrow night.
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It's amazing that these people seem so competent and yet we have maps with obvious positional imbalances like scrap station in the pool.
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Q: Offline play?
A: Maybe, people might hack achieves.
Who cares? Achievements are frankly the single worst thing that has ever happened to gaming. They do nothing except encourage "Douchbag" gaming. Some people focus more on stupid achievements then actually becoming "Good" at the game. I would vote to remove the system entirely, but since that won't happen due to the "Xbox Generation" just make them meaningless.
Q: Mutalisks are hard countered by thor and marine, give them +3 to light
A: They're mobile, we're happy with the muta
As a Former P player and now Z, I have overall been fairly happy with muta balance. I would agree with Blizzard here.
Q: Custom keybinds?
A: Didn't want to delay release for it, it's in testing in internal builds, it's really complex to do from a UI standpoint, no timeline but it's pretty far along
Don't BS us blizz, we aren't stupid. This isn't complex by any stretch and they should have been in from the get go. I think I speak for most players here when I say "Hurry the hell up".
Q: Premium maps, marketplace?
A: Heart of the Swarm at the earliest
Good to hear this, encouraging player driven custom content is ALWAYS a good idea.
Q: 10mb map limits?
A: We're chewing up storage really quickly but it's a really hot topic at Blizz, we're looking at it
Storage is insanely cheap...Seriously. Just do something like sub 10mb is "Preferred". I run a server farm in several offices, adding more storage to the tune of multi TB is cheap and easy.
Q: Wierd question about how balance team spot and fix cheese, rushes
A: Actually the easiest things to fix most of the time, more concerned about more complex dynamics. Want rushing to be viable
Good call, giving players more options is always better then limiting them. On that note, how about we remove the stupid supply restriction on Terran? I was in favor of them being tuned down some but that was the wrong approach frankly.
Q: More stats and data accessible from score screen?
A: We want to improve this stuff alot, maybe in a patch but probably HotS
Good to hear.
Q: (Kind of incoherent, I think the main theme is) "Are Zerg designed to need to out macro T and P?
A: Yes, specifically not supposed to be strong at pushing at Tier 2, need to macro up and get to tier 3
Useless tidbit of info, but interesting to hear confirmed. I think that basically translates into Z needs to be aggressive early or defend hard till late game.
Q: Is Sc2 going to be like WoW with a balance patch that makes one race overpowered each tuesday, Roaches run right past my 10 carriers and kill my nexus because they have so much hp now (lol?)
A: We are going to slow down patching, especially compared to beta, the goal is to stabilise and slow down as much as possible but we're not going to be chicken in patching if we think there are issues, PvT is our biggest concern at the moment, re: WoW comparison, WoW has issues Sc2 doesn't even begin to have, Sc2 is specifically on a smaller scale (3 races, 12 - 14 units) to keep balance tight
Person should of just been flogged on the spot for attempting to compare Sc2 to wow in terms of balancing, what a retarded question.
Q: (ExcaliburZ, author of Ladder analysis thread, esports forum mvp) - What besides hidden MMR influences player ranking and match making?
Q: Are the speed at which Toss get Warp Gates where you want them to be? Toss can force a macro game very early
A: We want every race to feel insanely overpowered (but still balanced) WGs have been nerfed alot already, we think they're ok
Agreed, though I still feel zealots are way too slow even as I am now on the receiving end of them now.
Q: Do you think HSM is underused?
A: Kim: It was causing alot of trouble in the late game - Terrans turtle hard then mass ravens, trade mana for enemy resources so we had to nerf it. This wasnt the gameplay we were looking for
Not every spell has to be amazing in every situation, as long as abilities have applications in specific situations where they're powerful its ok (eg HSM vs Mutalisk)
Browder: It's definitely underused, but we had to nerf for it cos of what Kim said, not going to buff it in the immediate future. Going to wait and see what community does with it, community often surprises us by utitilising underused abilities.
I would agree to this logic, I think HSM took the nerf bat a little too hard through beta but I like the measured approach on it.
Q: Roach / reaper changes killed off reaper vs Z, do you think this was too hasty and didnt give players enough time to come up with counter strats, Fruit Dealer showed us Z were all doing it wrong
A: Main focus is on competitive level, but we do care about team games and other levels, Reaper Ling was completely and utterly broken in 2v2. On the flip side for 1v1 Terran had too many openers that came out before they could be scouted so we wanted to limit T openers, 2v2 balance was a good excuse to nerf it.
Disagree entirely, what it showed was that Z needed more viable openers not T needed less.
Q: Boxer might have done better if he had spawned cross locations, do you take spawn locations in maps into account in balance stats.
A: Map balance is a big issue, don't think we take spawn location into account but it's a good point, we watch to see if race match ups become lopsided on specific maps, that's why we yanked DO / Kulas.
Location based stats might be drilling too deep but if we think there might be an issue we can access those stats
Glad to see they are aware that map balance is still very rough. I suspect we have another 6 months or so before we start seeing real balance competition maps. Left out some obviously, mostly ones I didn't feel were particularly important to me. As always this is my personal opinion on the matter, which may or may not amount to dick for anyone else.
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In what context did they present the Bayesian equation? Or was that a joke by the OP that went over my head? haha
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On October 25 2010 09:07 theqat wrote:
In what context did they present the Bayesian equation? Or was that a joke by the OP that went over my head? haha
They talked about the numbers and the math and said "and here is how we calculate it all" and put that on screen. Everyone laughed and then they moved on to something else.
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Omg they never thought about positional imbalances......
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Definitely a lot more on the ball than many people claim.
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this roach carrier guy....i cannot believe how totally stupid this kid was.
wtf roach too much hp...where did he get this stuff from
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On October 25 2010 09:56 dave333 wrote:
Definitely a lot more on the ball than many people claim.
Agreed. I hope that in the future this community can start looking at multiple tools like they do. That might help with our outbreaks whenever something changes/doesnt change :p
Actually on that note can someone please make the "MAKE COMBAT" map? :D
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On October 24 2010 10:30 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 10:10 s2pid_loser wrote:
can someone post a video of this guy's question?
Q: Is Sc2 going to be like WoW with a balance patch that makes one race overpowered each tuesday, Roaches run right past my 10 carriers and kill my nexus because they have so much hp now (lol?)
A: We are going to slow down patching, especially compared to beta, the goal is to stabilise and slow down as much as possible but we're not going to be chicken in patching if we think there are issues, PvT is our biggest concern at the moment, re: WoW comparison, WoW has issues Sc2 doesn't even begin to have, Sc2 is specifically on a smaller scale (3 races, 12 - 14 units) to keep balance tight
That was a really dumb question, especially considering WoW does balance patches maybe every 6 months, if that. I think the last one before 4.0 hit a few weeks ago was 3.3.3 last December. EDIT: Brain fart, 3.3.3 was actually February-ish.
pre tbc the shit was fucked up , just saying.
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+ Show Spoiler +Q: Custom keybinds?
A: Didn't want to delay release for it, it's in testing in internal builds, it's really complex to do from a UI standpoint, no timeline but it's pretty far along
Don't BS us blizz, we aren't stupid. This isn't complex by any stretch and they should have been in from the get go. I think I speak for most players here when I say "Hurry the hell up".
actually keybinds isn't complicated, but tying it in with each individual's bnet account is. (based on my limited knowledge)
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Before the Multiplayer panel Dustin was signing stuff for a bunch of fans in the RTS stage area and a couple people were standing around him getting some pretty frank responses to questions about balance. Specifically they were focusing on the nerf to reapers and he really convinced me and the others there about the level of gravity with which they take balance changes. He addressed a couple points that people may or may not have inferred from the write-ups I've seen on the Multiplayer Panel that I'll list here (this is from memory so my apologies for anything that might be unclear).
1) They're really aware of how hard they nerfed the reaper. Dustin was really frank in saying that he was scared that it didn't have any use anymore. On the other hand, he was surprised with how much use it was still getting in the Blizzcon tournament games he was seeing. That led into a discussion of how they have to be really careful because of the number of times the metagame has changed without them doing anything, and players eventually becoming good enough or comfortable enough with their play to begin to incorporate another thing that might change the balance.
2) A lot of people say that they should only balance for 1v1, and they typically agree, but 2v2 is nearly as popular as 1v1 and the reaper/ling all-ins were accounting for so much of the top-game that it had completely wrecked the format at the top levels so they had to do something with as many people playing it as there are.
3) A lot of people were scared that they wouldn't buff zerg when Fruit dealer won (see IdrA's responses about how everyone will say zerg is fine), but blizz recognized that he was really at the top of his game and was playing much better than other players in those matches. Specifically, they don't care so much about the results of the series as much as what happens within the games themselves, as players in tournaments are at varying levels of skill and things like luck or being a bit off your game or whatever can have a big influence on performance. So they went ahead with those zerg buffs because they still felt like the game needed them.
I coulda sworn there was something else I wanted to say but now I can't remember =(. But yea, they really think these things through and are aware of the consequences.
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[B]
Q: Roach / reaper changes killed off reaper vs Z, do you think this was too hasty and didnt give players enough time to come up with counter strats, Fruit Dealer showed us Z were all doing it wrong
A: Main focus is on competitive level, but we do care about team games and other levels, Reaper Ling was completely and utterly broken in 2v2. On the flip side for 1v1 Terran had too many openers that came out before they could be scouted so we wanted to limit T openers, 2v2 balance was a good excuse to nerf it.
Browder: Saw alot of reapers in the tourney today. Going to wait and see if Reapers become useless or not, we think it might still have some uses
I was the one who asked this, and the more I think about it, the more I regret the phrasing of my question. I was trying to ask about their general patching philosophy and whether or not they take the community's adaptiveness and creativeness into account when timing the patch release. When asking my question, I emphasized the Reaper nerf a bit much and made it sound like I was specifically asking about that set of patches.
I hope the developers will always give the community time to figure out counters before tweaking numbers, since there are so many undiscovered strategies. The balance will shift on it's own as the players (specifically Korean Diamond league) figure out things that nobody considered.
Also, I don't play anything but 1v1, which is why I was completely unaware of the ling / reaper strategy being completely broken in 2v2. Crota and HD were in line ahead of me and mentioned it, but I was hoping that the panel would give more information out about the situation.
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EPT
