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Hi, first post, I've been lurking around the forums for a bit.
Me and My Friend have been doing 2v2 a lot lately and we often argue about what each other is doing wrong and he's really stubborn and refuses to admit he's wrong or watch replay to see what we did wrong. We often blame one another.
We did a game and war ensued.
Here's the replay:
[url blocked]
If you don't want to watch it, here's the game in text:
+ Show Spoiler +Map: Arid Waste (The one where helping a partner takes forever)
I'm Protoss, He's Zerg, we're facing 2 Zerg.
I Scout after a 11 Gate, Both zergs have their pools done before My Gate. I Call it.
He did a 15 Pool 16 Hatch, even after I Called it.
So I expect some 12 lings or whatever.
I Chrono Boost my Zealots, change build to 2 Gates/Core instead of Gate/Core/Gate
I Get 5 Zealots, 1 Sentries, Block my ramp with Gates, Im ready for 30 or so lings.
At that point, My friend gets attacked, 24 Lings 6-7 Roaches, they easily tear down his expo, 2nd Queen and 3 drones.
Meanwhile in his base, he has 6 Lings, 1 Spine Crawler and a Queen. He holds them back somewhat until he finally dies.
I Sent my Zealots and sentries, they got caught mid-way and killed reinforcement instead (like, 2-3 Roaches and handful of Lings).
I didn't realise I had so much income and ended up having too much money when he started getting attacked. That's my major error, not having thrown down a 3rd or 4th gateway.
I Then try to take them down, base rush, shoulda saved a probe, but failed and lost the game.
During and After the game, Blame War starts.
Things I Say:
- Bad Build Order vs 2 Zergs that do a 10-11 Pools, Shouldn't have fast expo'd
- I Failed when you started getting attacked, bad macro management on my part
- Only 6 Lings?
Things he Said:
- They would have EASILY entered in your base as well
- You only had 4 Zealots, they were useless
- My Build was a good choose against 2 Zerg with Early pool, 2 more minutes and I would have caught back to them in Army and have a better economy.
In short, he says we're doomed on this map, and if they had knocked on my door that I would be dead.
My main argument was that in most scenario, 2v1 you're dead, what's important is to buy time for the partner to come. I Suggested he does a 2nd spine crawler in Main and cut expo for Roaches/Lings to that if they do knock on his door, that he can easily buy time for me to come.
I Also explained to him that my zealot position with Sentries/Upcoming stalkers makes it so I can hold them at ramp for way enough time that he can come help.
Now overall, I'm Looking for some insight from the community to settle this down, because right now, it's all out war.
Main Question:
Should He 15 Pool 16 Hatch vs 2 Zergs?
How was his/my Building placement?
Should I Change my build order vs 2 Zergs/Early Pool? (2 Gate/Core)
And Overall, what you guys see wrong from us in the replay until my friend dies.
Notes: We just got in Diamond League, sorry for bad english, it's not my native language, sorry for length of the post, just wanna cover all bases.
Hopefully I can get some good insight on this.
-Peekay
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Fast expanding against a double zerg team sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. As a zerg I would almost always open ling+baneling against a double zerg team.
I had trouble finding an old baneling bust build, but what I came up with that worked well was 13 gas @ 100, 12 pool, and drone to 14. When the pool finishes you can do an extractor trick and have enough money to start a queen, 6 zerglings, and ling speed all at once. Then 19/18 overlord and baneling nest at 100 minerals.
On May 27 2010 14:52 Peekay.switch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 14:48 Tsagacity wrote:
Fast expanding against a double zerg team sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. His main Argument against this: "Well if they hadn't pushed for another 2 minutes, I would have caught back". Now I understand the fact that better Economy = Bigger Army, but it's WAY too much of a gamble to do that, It's like I Would fast expo as a Toss at like 14 with 1 Zealot and go "Well if they don't push for another 5 minutes, I might be ok" And I honestly think that 2 Minutes is way too low, Dunno how long it takes to come back considering they are pumping it up all the time from one base where he has 2 Base with only 3 drones in the other expo. Yeah he's taking a very reckless and random gamble in hoping that a double zerg team isn't going to be aggressive in the early game. Even if they didn't open with an aggressive build they can still probably scout the FE and overrun the zerg anyway.
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On May 27 2010 14:48 Tsagacity wrote:
Fast expanding against a double zerg team sounds like an absolutely terrible idea.
His main Argument against this: "Well if they hadn't pushed for another 2 minutes, I would have caught back".
Now I understand the fact that better Economy = Bigger Army, but it's WAY too much of a gamble to do that, It's like I Would fast expo as a Toss at like 14 with 1 Zealot and go "Well if they don't push for another 5 minutes, I might be ok"
And I honestly think that 2 Minutes is way too low, Dunno how long it takes to come back considering they are pumping it up all the time from one base where he has 2 Base with only 3 drones in the other expo.
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Tsagcity does pretty much exactly what I do against 2 zergs. And I would do something similar against teams with 1 zerg too. Maybe a bit greedier on drones though depending on what is scouted.
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Do note if possible, some insight on my approach would be kind too 
Because otherwise he'll be like "Well you still did terrible and you're still useless" >_>
Thanks alot for the feedback guys!
Thanks for reading :D
Also, LF 2v2 Partner? Maybe? x)
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vs zz, zerg should go roach and toss should go 3 gate to expansion/cannon.
15 pool 16 hatch vs 2 z pretty bad. He should have also moved his spine crawler to his expansions/made another one and had more units. It's possible to pool/expand and still defend that attack.
You should either tech fast or 3 gate zealot to cannon.
You both could have played much better, your build was weak and you didn't have enough gates/your minerals got way too high, your warp gates were also too slow(build a pylon in your allies base so you can help them quickly with warp gates)
And his build was too risky, he didn't move spine crawler/have enough units, not to mention that map has a back door on his base. That map is a rushing map as well, it's pretty much the only map without the shared chokes blizzard seems to love so much (morons)
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Against two zergs I would 10 pool baneling. If you even 14 pool and they 7 pool you're dead.
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I recommend you scout at 9 pylon as P - it gives you more time to react and retract if you happened to go for a build that is being hard-countered by the oppoenent even without scouting. You'd never see a double 6 pool at 11 gateway until it was way too late.
I can't really comment on the 10-pool aggression since I don't know Z play too well nor have I ever had very good Z partners that I can remember. I think 4 gate would have been your best solution there, since Z can't really wall up and if you get cannons you're just asking the opponent to rush him, and Z on your team should have put down a couple of crawlers and teched to something like banelings/hydras, depending on how aggressive they were being.
As for the synergy between you guys, you need to find a better partner I think =/ Not one that plays better necessarily, but one you can communicate and work with. I used to have a really good partner pre-patch 13 whom when we messed up, we looked at the mistakes that we each did, instead of blaming each other for not helping out enough. Granted, he was pretty good and we could both keep up with each other, so that helped a lot as well.
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I just had a game zzvzz and I went 10 pool and I was just barely able to hold against a double 7 pool and I needed help from my partnere or I was dead. I was down to about 6-8 drones I think. They went super heavy pressure and when they had to let up I droned and get a few banelings while my partner raped the other two guys.
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The zergs took their sweet time moving out, so he could have gotten away with it, instead of taking the double gas you should have moved his crawler to his natural choke and built some additional ones and pump lings. It's just silly to just build only 6 lings when fast expanding on that map. And the double gas was also stupid, since that way you can never keep up production with 2 hatches and 2 queens. Better to saturate one gas geyser right after starting queen, that way he will have 100 gas by the time the queen finishes. the remark about 'if they pushed two minutes later' is just stupid because it seemed like he wanted to FE and tech before the first push, highly unlikely against two 10-pools. He just got too greedy. FE-> defence -> then tech
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EPT
