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I haven't seen a good discussion regarding warp gates in awhile. I'd like to outline a few points about them which I think detract from exciting gameplay and hear other people's thoughts on the matter.
[removed this point because people misinterpreted it]
I don't like the way that it's so hard to harass protoss with dropships/a few units in overlords because they can just warp the appropriate counter to wherever your units are harassing even if they have no units nearby (waiting the warpgate cooldown time at the maximum, rather than waiting an eternity for units to build out of gateways). Starcraft was great in that ZvP/TvP harass was effective if protoss was caught with no defense, but ineffective if they left units behind in key places. This left openings for creative/vigilant players to do some economic damage and make exciting plays. I just don't see this in SC2.
I also find it very lame that on a map like desert oasis, it's impossible for terran to FE because protoss can just place a pylon somewhere on the huge map nearby the terran and warp units in.
My "solution" to the protoss warp gate "problems" that I see is to force them to place phase prisms in order to warp units in rather than being able to use pylons which are already built for three other reasons (supply, power for buildings, spotting). To counteract this nerf, I would recommend decreasing the cost of phase prisms and making the warp gate upgrade pre-researched.
[EDIT: this is not the main point I am trying to get across, it is just one potential fix out of many. I am mostly interested in people's thoughts on whether the near-instant and insane mobility of protoss units due to the early availability of warp gates is a good thing for exciting gameplay.
Oh, and I'm decently experienced with SC2, ~1450 plat, in case that makes a difference.
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Warpgate is fine. without it protoss would just die on each harrasemnt. You also couldnt be more wrong in protoss not needing to macro during battles. You with your lazy race can just queue up during battle. For protos not to waste time he has to be constantly warping in every cooldown. Warping in also takes more offort then the lazy 1mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm terran needs to do to make rines.
You basicly want to nerf warpgates cause you don't like them. There is no reason at all.
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Lol. That's just so silly.
First of all, it's impossible to FE on Desert Oasis at all, except for Zerg. This map is pure crap, it's way too hard to defend a b2, don't even bother with it. Warp Gate has already been nerfed, and while it is very practical to defend sudden air harass and such, the unit is very vulnerable while it's being warped, so two or three Banshees (for example) would be able to kill at least 2 units before they would even warp in.
Nerfing it some more or making it so we can only spawn units in the Phasing aera of a Warp Prism would be ridiculous. Can you imagine how crippling that would be ? We would have to leave a Warp Prism in our base all the time, we would have to make another to attack, and the opponent could basically shut down our production for a while by killing the Warp Prism in our base, or both. Warp Prism would become some kind of add-on to the Warp Gates and you would have to wait to get a Robotics before you can start producing properly. Also, you would spend every single Chrono Boost on your Gate units, and any kind of rush would end the game within 5 minutes.
Worst idea ever.
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On April 07 2010 00:24 Marradron wrote:
Warping in also takes more offort then the lazy 1mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm terran needs to do to make rines.
Actually it's the lazy 1aaaaaaaaaaaa to make 'rines ;-). On topic tho - WG shouldn't be nerfed. They are something geniunely new and original and add an interesting flavor to the Protoss (makes them look properly high-tech).
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Look, you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying. The nerf I suggested just requires protoss to be smarter about where they expect to be warping units in, rather than just relying on pylons which they already have everywhere. I feel like the current warp gates detract from exciting gameplay, I don't care about how they affect my win/loss ratio. I don't think the game is imbalanced because of warp gates, I just think it's balanced in a way that's not as exciting as it could be. Warp gates are one factor (in my opinion) that are making starcraft2 NOT the constant harass/multitasking game that it was supposed to be and described as when they first introduced it.
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So instead you want protos to get another useless unit only to warp in units. Now that is what i'd call boring, unnecisary and lame.
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U've a point considering the all-too-fast counter to harrasments, however, IMHO, ur Warp Prism idea is... unacceptable. That would require a complete revamp of Warp Prisms, and probably Protoss anti-air (since warp prism would be sniped by mutalisks/vikings/phoenixes way too quickly). It's just a bad idea. Still, Warp Gates could be nerfed in terms of cooldown/warp-in period. Also, warping-in units could be made even more vulnerable.
But warp prisms instead of pylons...? nah.
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On April 07 2010 01:04 Aravan wrote:
U've a point considering the all-too-fast counter to harrasments, however, IMHO, ur Warp Prism idea is... unacceptable. That would require a complete revamp of Warp Prisms, and probably Protoss anti-air (since warp prism would be sniped by mutalisks/vikings/phoenixes way too quickly). It's just a bad idea. Still, Warp Gates could be nerfed in terms of cooldown/warp-in period. Also, warping-in units could be made even more vulnerable.
But warp prisms instead of pylons...? nah.
I wouldn't consider it fast. warpin gives a great oppertunity to just kill before it finishes. P need it. Without warpgates it's the least mobbile race, with zerg having massive drop capability and terran having an army of medivacs.
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The upgrade for Warp Gate takes long enough, and most Protoss spend at least three Boosts on it. The only acceptable nerf would be to up the cost from 50/50 to 75/75 or something. And I think that would even be too much.
Warp Gate is fine.
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Maybe kill the pylons then? Its not like they can hide the pylons that good.
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The warp gates are nice, and if they change the warp gates it would be boring to play protoss... because the warps is a very important thing for toss players.
Zerg got this burrow worm thing that is anoying aswell, and that one can be summoned like everywhere they got vision... so i could be transporting like everywhere aswell if you got 100 units you can get that inside there defense pretty quick. And you can spawn these worms all over the map so you can freely move quick aswell as zergs. the warping makes directly from the buildings, the worm you can get all your units there you want them.
The pylon has it drawbacks aswell.. you can destroy it and all other buildings will be shutdown.
I just think warpgates is awesome and is probobly the last thing i would complain about in SC2.
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[My "solution" to the protoss warp gate "problems" that I see is to force them to place phase prisms in order to warp units in rather than being able to use pylons which are already built for three other reasons (supply, power for buildings, spotting).
So kill the extremely weak Warp Prism and Protoss can no longer create units so its GG right there?
Sounds really well thought out.
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On April 07 2010 01:10 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +[My "solution" to the protoss warp gate "problems" that I see is to force them to place phase prisms in order to warp units in rather than being able to use pylons which are already built for three other reasons (supply, power for buildings, spotting). So kill the extremely weak Warp Prism and Protoss can no longer create units so its GG right there? Sounds really well thought out.
You're probably right that my particular "fix" isn't optimal or necessarily a good idea. The main point of my post is to discuss whether the issues I describe (or are they issues at all?) are important enough to warrant a change in the current warp gate mechanic.
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Where exactly is this pylon placed that is the problem? It seems like you cant reach it to kill it?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Warp Gates are an amazing mechanic and are the only thing keeping me playing protoss.
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On April 07 2010 01:30 MeSaber wrote:
Where exactly is this pylon placed that is the problem? It seems like you cant reach it to kill it?
I assume you're referring to my point regarding desert oasis FE denial? My point is that the map is so huge that there are myriad locations for pylons to be placed near enough to my main/nat to get an army there dramatically faster than walking all the way across the map (i.e., the space of such locations is so huge that reliably scouting for 1 pylon is hopeless).
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I'm glad Blizzard is the only one able to make changes to the game.. the rest of you would screw up the game so bad..
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I enjoy the sneakiness of the warp gates... never thought that they were that overpowered. It does give them a mobility that perhaps they shouldn't have if we're comparing to SCBW but regardless I like it.
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This is a horrible thread.
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EPT
