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I'm curious to hear TL's opinions on Reapers, as, at the moment, they are built seldom to never in every matchup. Their requirement of a techlab, long build time, extreme gas cost, and nearly instant death to almost any non-zealot/marine unit makes them next to useless as the raiding unit they seem to be meant to be- relegating them instead to an incredibly niche role in some cheese builds.
One potential problem (in my opinion anyways) with any attempt at balancing the unit is their immense role overlap with the Hellion- which does roughly the same job (albeit, out of a factory) without requiring a tech lab, and, more importantly, with no gas cost. The Hellion is also even faster, much sturdier, and does splash damage.
In terms of overlap, there is also the Viking- which performs an intuitively similar role in terms of cliff-jumping.
So, is there any way that the Reaper can be salvaged to perform a useful role without massively overlapping with the Hellion or the Viking, or becoming in some way imbalanced?
I can't think of one- and it would be a shame if Blizzard had to scrap this unit, which is pretty damned cool and fun to play with.
Thoughts?
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the problem seems to be that they're too mobile to make cheaper and by the time you can actually build a decent number of them you only have a very small window of opportunity to use them.
we could give hellions jetpack upgrades though. wouldn't that be cool?
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Their build time should definitely be reduced somewhat... Other than that they are pretty effective at what they do if you can micro them correctly. It would not hurt to get a slight armor or hp buff to survive a a little longer.
As for the hellion, it should be reworked... You should be able to shoot while moving with them if you are constantly clicking to move and focus on a certain target. This would make a micro mechanic. Kinda like how you used vultures to move and shoot by using patrol and fast clicking. It would make the unit actually useful, as they serve very little purpose against competent opponents.
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I've played around 150 games with terran, around 10/15th platinum, and lately I've been trying to use reapers in every way to figure a role for them. The only practical use I've found is vs toss in some particular cases (large maps and close positions, the toss FE or goes 2 gateways...): you can have 2 speeded reapers in his base and take out some probes while massing rines and exping safely. If you can do this (and the opponent lets you...) they strangely become even more useful later in the game when you can mass bio with 5/6 rax and have upgrades, in which case using 1 rax to mass reapers can be somehow useful: with +1 weapons 2 reapers can 1 shot a probe.
Compared to hellion their mobility is extremely better when speeded and with +1 weapons they might work even better vs probes. Indeed, however, they die istantly.
They kinda remind me of terran wraiths in sc1 vs zerg... Leta double starport maybe is not meant to win you the game, but you can (or should) take your opponent off guarded and obtain the advantage you need to win the mid game.
Moreover they have one of the best quotes ever "The grim reapers has arrived", that chills me every time!! :p
Please don't be harsh on me, I'm not a pro, neither a good player >_> just a beta player
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Reapers are good at raiding expansions when you are also harrassing with hellions. It's really annoying. Next time someone does it to me I'll post a replay. Until then just imagine 4 hellions coming in to harrass my drones and then as they run out and I chase them down with my speedlings 4 reapers come and kill about 6 drones before I can get more lings/roaches to stop them.
I do agree that there is some overlap though.
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Maybe instead of a harassment role, Blizzard should focus on the "siege" secondary role they have with their D8 charges. Perhaps they could be easier to access and have their range increased, like "lobbing" siege breaker grenades or something. Maybe they could do their bonus against buildings and armored instead of light, and leave the worker harass to the bikes?
I've played about 300 games of Terran, only in Silver 1v1 but I think I understand the race fairly well for how little time the game has been out. What do you think of these ideas?
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Now that the Reapers are very underused, can we get our Medics back now?
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United States7166 Posts
watch replays by qxc he loves using reapers vs zerg and uses them better than most every other reaper user ive seen. and it comes earlier than hellion harass which is by far the most popular way to open right now tvz, at least for harassment. so that throws a lot of zerg timing's off and can do a lot of damage to drones and possibly even buildings
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I feel they should be reworked into a counter for Hydralisks. The problem is if they can go toe to toe with Hydras their cliff jumping ability and speed would probably need to be looked at. Perhaps the speed upgrade could be changed to a combat upgrade, removing their cliff jumping ability and giving them 100 more HP. Also it is unfortunate they cannot use stimpacks, I guess they could rush down buildings too fast. I'm not sure what the point of the D8 charges is, buildings die so fast anyway.
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I like them as a harassing unit. I play Terran as random 2v2, T or Z in my 2v2 ladder, and Zerg as 1v1 ladder.
When I use them, they really do feel fragile and die to anything, and I do feel like it takes too long to build 3-5 of them even out of 2 barracks. I dont think they are necessarily too expensive (gas or mineral wise) to be prohibitive. I think they just come out too late. Some guy tried to reaper harass me as zerg, and it gave me the hardest time i've had in a game to date. Only after the game ended and I watched the replay did i realize he only killed a few lings, shot my inbase hat once, and killed 3 drones.
This was with i think 6 of them. Obviously they came out too slow to do any super damage, but the psychological strain is worse against reapers then hellions. I think due to the fact that they are fast as shit, it makes it harder to keep up and control your units at the same time as continuing to build.
The mobility means they can zip around and cliff jumping means they are so hard to pin down, whereas hellions can be caught and pinned with good base layout and speedlings.
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I use them from time to time, mostly in 2v2, and in groups of 10-14 they really can mess thigs up even when opponent knows they are coming (if not, there is terrible terrible damage).
I think they are fine as they are stat and cost wise, the only thing that prevents it's usage in mid or late game is their ridiculus build time, a rush from early one base requires 4 tech barracs, even on 2 and sometimes 3 bases late game i don't have that many and i aside their "rush" role they are more of a reactionary unit - built and used only when certain situation arise.
It could be possible for zerg to spend 1 production cycle to make a ton of reactionary unit (like corruptor? or lings?), but for a terran it's imposible without prepearing whole base industry, wich take too much time.
I would propose lowering build time (to marauder's) and as and early game rush offset, add engineering bay requirement. Or maybe make them buildable from reactor-barracs with factory&eng-bay requirement.
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I think Reapers need to be given an upgrade at the tech lab that increases their range by a LOT, like nearly doubling it, so with their high speed and range they could out-micro units like Hydras, while still being effective against Marines/Zeals/Workers, the kinds of units they are supposed to beat.
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On March 21 2010 18:05 davj88 wrote: I've played around 150 games with terran, around 10/15th platinum, and lately I've been trying to use reapers in every way to figure a role for them. The only practical use I've found is vs toss in some particular cases (large maps and close positions, the toss FE or goes 2 gateways...): you can have 2 speeded reapers in his base and take out some probes while massing rines and exping safely. If you can do this (and the opponent lets you...) they strangely become even more useful later in the game when you can mass bio with 5/6 rax and have upgrades, in which case using 1 rax to mass reapers can be somehow useful: with +1 weapons 2 reapers can 1 shot a probe.
Compared to hellion their mobility is extremely better when speeded and with +1 weapons they might work even better vs probes. Indeed, however, they die istantly.
They kinda remind me of terran wraiths in sc1 vs zerg... Leta double starport maybe is not meant to win you the game, but you can (or should) take your opponent off guarded and obtain the advantage you need to win the mid game.
Moreover they have one of the best quotes ever "The grim reapers has arrived", that chills me every time!! :p
Please don't be harsh on me, I'm not a pro, neither a good player >_> just a beta player
Have you tried reaper and point defense when raiding?
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I can understand nerfing their damage vs buildings , but i just don't get why did blizzard increase the build time of the reaper . You can get a stalker before the reaper gets to your base even with the previous patch's build time . Reapers suck vs zerg ... Right now i sometimes barely use them against terran only . I build 3 reapers and harras whatever i can and try to not lose them so that i can use them later on Xel'Naga towers . But it sucks that they take like an hour to build up 3 or 4 reapers from 1 barracks . Even if you want to use them later on as harras units , it takes forever to mass up a decent harass group . A very useful technic is to swoop in kill the gas which in TvT is everything .
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One thing I have noticed is that they are a very map dependent unit.
Blistering Sands - Favorable towards the reaper. Lots of random cliffs into the main and expos. Steppes of War - So so. Main is not really an option. Desert Oasis - Very good cliffs for the reaper. Scrap Station - Not the best IMO. Lost Temple - Good map for the reaper. Cliffs everywhere! Metalopolis - Though I have not seen them used on this map yet... I see some potential. The main seems somewhat accessible though it is guarded a lot sometimes. Kulas Ravine - Decent map for them. Some interesting paths the reapers can take advantage of here.
But like many others have pointed out... the reaper seems to be the most extreme version of the glass cannon in SC2 currently. If you use them and your opponent even slightly prepares for them.. you can get punished so hard that you will loose a lot of ground to your opponent.
For some reason I get an overall feeling that the unit is very close to being balanced but is not being used properly. I would be scared to see the unit buffed at all after seeing what it is capable of. I have been trying to though them into my play over time and get out of my comfort zone.
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I actually use the reaper alot vs protoss. You can open up with reapers on maps like desert oasis or lost temple where you can abuse the cliffs. I open up with racks and rush to 2 port banshees while building reapers with the extra gas. You wanna get the double gas real quick. Once you have about 3 reapers move out and sneak in to the protoss's mineral lines and start harassing his probes. Snipe any key buildings he is building such as canons as they can prevent your banshees from doing tons of damage otherwise.
Once you have your first pair of banshees produce vikings from both your starports and produce banshees again. Keep alternating between the 2 while getting cloak and you should be unstoppable with decent micro. Thats my usual strategy I have been experimenting with in TvP.
Now I know there are much better strategies out there and they are probably more solid too such as Lucifron's 1 rax CC into GG or an MnM ghost rush but I feel that protoss will be able to counter that sooner or later which is why Im experimenting with this reaper opening into banshee-viking and it seems to work pretty well against people who have never seen it before. Pretty much the idea of the reaper is to keep the protoss pinned in his base and make him be wary of harassment attempts and slow down his economy my killing a few probes.
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anyone tried out sth like 9/11 or 10/11 factory + gas into reapers?
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Nerf the dmg vs buildings, lower the gas cost and increase the range then give them some sort of t2 uppgrade that increases the survivability and or DT charges as a t2 research. Now you have a unit that can harass workers early game and transform into a flanking unit/ exp harasser mid game.
The drawback of this would be that bio as T would be even stronger compared to Mech.
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Not every unit has to appear in 50% of the games played. Reapers are not useless and can surprise a Protoss once in a while.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 21 2010 19:03 yomi wrote: I feel they should be reworked into a counter for Hydralisks. The problem is if they can go toe to toe with Hydras their cliff jumping ability and speed would probably need to be looked at. Perhaps the speed upgrade could be changed to a combat upgrade, removing their cliff jumping ability and giving them 100 more HP. Also it is unfortunate they cannot use stimpacks, I guess they could rush down buildings too fast. I'm not sure what the point of the D8 charges is, buildings die so fast anyway. Then they wouldn't be reapers anymore =/
I dunno, revert to old build time, maybe give them some kind of upgrade that lets them be useful later in the game... (ability to drop mini-sensor towers? ability to drop some kind of mine?)
On March 21 2010 20:43 ScarPe wrote: anyone tried out sth like 9/11 or 10/11 factory + gas into reapers? I assume you mean rax (not factory ), and yes I have. I'm not that happy with the results to be honest I don't think reapers are useless tho, just, I don't think the super early reaper does enough to warrant the eco sacrifice.
Oh and I wish the speed upgrade made them faster than speedlings, it's stupid that it doesn't >_<
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