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On November 26 2012 04:37 GenesisX wrote:
Zerg cannot roach pressure as a response to hellion fast expand anymore. One widow mind and wall shuts it down completely.
It depends how the terran places his mines.
I usually spread them out to watch tower and one on my natural's ramp. just one mine doesn't really do all that much damage imo
but the zerg cannot find a sweet spot to snipe off anything as easily. So i guess in a way it does shut down roach pressure
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I've found the mines pretty useful against early game toss. If you use reapers to pop in their base and harass and exit with widow mines on the low ground, it's very good at taking away those crucial first few units while getting a probe or 2.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 27 2012 15:29 GrassEater wrote:
Vs protoss
1: When you play bio and the protoss ends upp with chargelots arcon and templars. Get a reactor on your factory and burrow and kite into them with bio.
2: Drop 1 6 marines and 1 widow mines instead of 8 marines. He will probably not notice it and run back the probes to killed by it.
I really don't mean to be a jerk, but I find both of these ideas fairly bad. I will explain why: 1. When you play bio and try to kite over mines, you're going to take friendly splash, which is something a bio ball CANT take. In addition, it'll probably splash on your medivacs, which is also bad. There's no reason to add widow mines to kill zealots when 40 marines melts them instantly anyway. There might be some uses in the later parts of the game with like 30 zealot warpins after a big engagement, but even then, I see 4-6 BFH instead of widow mines being better (because, once again, no splash).
2. You should never rely a strategy or tactic on "hopefully my opponent won't notice". DT rushes and things of that nature are terrible if they are solely for the purpose of hoping your opponent is bad. Whenever you look at a tactic or strategy, you want it to force your opponent to do something. For instance, if you burrow 2 mines on the far side of his mineral line and then drop on the other, you force your opponent to have to pull probes TOWARDS the marines. That being said, there might be some utility in trying something like that.
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I find it helps greatly when you go siege tank heavy, which is like the best mech unit so that I guess quick units can't pick tanks off as easily (which is a problem in WoL)
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Diamond level random player here; i always bring widow mines + bio for a timing push against zerg and toss (for TvT it always delays my opponent taking his third or making drops)
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United States4883 Posts
On December 02 2012 08:00 banatboy wrote:
Diamond level random player here; i always bring widow mines + bio for a timing push against zerg and toss (for TvT it always delays my opponent taking his third or making drops)
Nice to hear some comments about bio. Quite honestly, I've ONLY been playing mech in HotS, partly because it's fun and I just want to, but also because I think that's what needs the most research at the moment.
I've seen quite a few marine/widow mine pushes, although more when I play as zerg, as they tend to be really good at zoning out where zerglings can and can't go. In many ways, it seems much stronger than seige tanks in the midgame. I think terrans might be able to get away with a mostly tankless marine/mine style into thors/viking. Have you had any significant success in the lategame paired with bio?
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so i have had about the same success rate as yourself. i will say i have great success with TvT. I usually open up proxy rax and start reaper production. I use the widow mines to take an early 3rd and to box in the terran, i find the proxy reaper denies his gas so tanks dont go up soon enough for me to worry about getting my incoming bio force demilished. i burrow them on ramps, deny expos likeburrowed zerglings, and put them outside of his base where his drops might be leaving from. i completely own the TvT game with that. On the otherhand TvZ is pretty hit or miss and TvP is UTTER failure. observers rock my world.
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@SC2John: Nah man. Late game goes sideways if your terran opponent goes all mech (tank heavy) with raven support at which point my widow mines are completely useless. TvZ and TvP is a different matter on the other hand :D
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Playing GM and Master Terrans in HOTS. The Widow Mine seems best used for early Widow Mine rushes and timings. Late game it isn't good. Also it is more effective in conjunction with Bio than used with Mech units.
Let me illustrate how to use them properly...
So here is my base at 4:04. This is my standard 1 Gate Expand PvT opening, I throw down a chrono on the Gate because I want my Stalker a bit quicker because my scout is going to arrive at this base last. My Zealot popped out a few seconds before and his chasing his scouting SCV...
![[image loading]](http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6605/screenshot2012111911582.jpg)
But something sinister is happening. At the same time (4:04) a proxy Factory has finished outside my base, and is about to lift off and start making Widow Mines inside my base.
![[image loading]](http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/5690/screenshot2012111513291.jpg)
It lands in my base at 4:16, meaning the first mine can be out at 4:56. 4:21 is the soonest I can start the MSC opening 14 gas (2:02 Assimilator) after researching WG and building a Stalker. This is gas limited, so it is the soonest regardless of scouting. Getting the MSC before the Stalker wouldn't help, the MSC has the same range as the Widow Mine, so I need both to handle Widow Mines.
![[image loading]](http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4818/screenshot2012111911565.jpg)
Now, 5:17 is the soonest a Robo can be started opening 14 gas (assuming you get WG, a Stalker and a MSC). This is also gas limited. And 6:42 is the time a chronoboosted Observer is done.
This means that from the first moment a Widow Mine can be out in my base to the time a Chronoboosted Observer is out is 1:46 seconds. The MSC alone can only cover 30 seconds of detection with it's ability. You might think that is enough time to kill off the three Widow Mines (the second finishes at 5:36, the third at 6:16) that will be built before the Observer is out. But you'd be wrong .Widow Mines have a lot of HP and are as fast as a Stalker, so they can just run away, then run back in when the MSC detection runs out.
Also he can camp my Robo with Widow Mines, and if he times it right then my first Observer will die immediately.
And at the same time the SCV that built the Factory is blocking my natural now with an Engineering bay. Might not think that is a big deal since I have a Stalker and Zealot out... except I need them to help fend of the Mines (particularly the Stalker, since the MSC has the same range as Widow Mines, meaning that even if it can see them it can't attack them without being able to be hit). And even if I did clear out the Engineering Bay, he could run down his first Mine and burrow it to block my expansion more. So my expansion will be greatly delayed.
![[image loading]](http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4637/screenshot2012111911550.jpg)
Oh and 5:46 is the moment the Terran player can expand. And he can block my expansion with the Engineering Bay then a Widow Mine so it doesn't go down until 6:42 (assuming my Observer spawns in sight range of the Widow Mine (but not so close that the Widow Mine kills it) and the Widow Mine is killed immediately).
Or he could just throw a huge Marine/SCV all-in at me, I've spent all my gas trying to get detection so I don't have any Sentries and my Stalker count is limited and I've spent all the energy from the MSC on detection so I can't use Purify. Or he could just do a 1-1-1, my expansion is so delayed... pick your poison, this build is incredibly difficult to stop.
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exact same thing happened to me and i almost got dismayed with continuing the game after seeing that it would take (like a long time) for me to get MSC to envision those widow mines. Looks like this sort of cheese is prevalent on the ladder nowadays.
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Chasing around Widow Mines isn't fun, and it makes me not want to play HOTS. I hope they redesign it to be better for late game not be a cheese unit.
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I like facing 6 Pools, the 1/1/1... whatever kind of cheeses because there is actually a battle going on, and SC2 is a war game (and this is why I disliked WC3, it was less of a battle where you tried to kill stuff and more of a dance where you kept units from dying). Defending the Widow Mine rush is like playing whack-a-mole. It seems ridiculous to me.
And all this is besides the point. The Widow Mine wasn't designed to help Terran cheese early or enhance mid-game timings. But that is what it is best at in TvP. Late game, it isn't that effective.
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True, widow mines are useless in late game TvP but they can take out a whole battalion of lings in early-mid game TvZ :D
just my two cents
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I like how Terran has a whopping 2 general strategies, and no midgame strategies.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 02 2012 10:58 ImANinjaBich wrote:
so i have had about the same success rate as yourself. i will say i have great success with TvT. I usually open up proxy rax and start reaper production. I use the widow mines to take an early 3rd and to box in the terran, i find the proxy reaper denies his gas so tanks dont go up soon enough for me to worry about getting my incoming bio force demilished. i burrow them on ramps, deny expos likeburrowed zerglings, and put them outside of his base where his drops might be leaving from. i completely own the TvT game with that. On the otherhand TvZ is pretty hit or miss and TvP is UTTER failure. observers rock my world.
In TvT, the best response I've seen to this is the opponent just getting 2 marauders with concussive shells. It seems like a big investment, but it ironically seems to even out the tech with your widow mine/reaper rush. But yeah, I can see this being a HUGE problem for any terran fast expanding; it looks like TvT will be dominated by gas first builds into some form of 1-1-1 from here on in.
On December 02 2012 12:25 banatboy wrote:
@SC2John: Nah man. Late game goes sideways if your terran opponent goes all mech (tank heavy) with raven support at which point my widow mines are completely useless. TvZ and TvP is a different matter on the other hand :D
Elaborate. How do they work in conjunction with bio lategame against zerg or protoss?
On December 02 2012 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
Chasing around Widow Mines isn't fun, and it makes me not want to play HOTS. I hope they redesign it to be better for late game not be a cheese unit.
Dude, that looks awful. I've recently been saying that I think widow mine needs to have less front-loaded damage. It should really have something like 60-80 damage and a larger splash and perhaps a 25-30 second cooldown. This would still allow things like dropping in mineral lines and sniping most T1 units, but would allow players to not lose based on things like immortals or ultras being sniped. It would also cover flanks better and deal with zergling runbys, etc, a little less randomly.
On December 02 2012 18:45 aksfjh wrote:I like how Terran has a whopping 2 general strategies, and no midgame strategies.
Lol, kind of why I got bored with terran in WoL. There's really only bio + medivac builds, 1-1-1 builds, and some shaky mech builds. I think terran spends most of it's time trying to figure out what to DO with it's units, but I feel like there's not a huge variation in the composition of armies.
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On December 02 2012 12:50 BronzeKnee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Playing GM and Master Terrans in HOTS. The Widow Mine seems best used for early Widow Mine rushes and timings. Late game it isn't good. Also it is more effective in conjunction with Bio than used with Mech units. Let me illustrate how to use them properly... So here is my base at 4:04. This is my standard 1 Gate Expand PvT opening, I throw down a chrono on the Gate because I want my Stalker a bit quicker because my scout is going to arrive at this base last. My Zealot popped out a few seconds before and his chasing his scouting SCV... But something sinister is happening. At the same time (4:04) a proxy Factory has finished outside my base, and is about to lift off and start making Widow Mines inside my base. It lands in my base at 4:16, meaning the first mine can be out at 4:56. 4:21 is the soonest I can start the MSC opening 14 gas (2:02 Assimilator) after researching WG and building a Stalker. This is gas limited, so it is the soonest regardless of scouting. Getting the MSC before the Stalker wouldn't help, the MSC has the same range as the Widow Mine, so I need both to handle Widow Mines. Now, 5:17 is the soonest a Robo can be started opening 14 gas (assuming you get WG, a Stalker and a MSC). This is also gas limited. And 6:42 is the time a chronoboosted Observer is done. This means that from the first moment a Widow Mine can be out in my base to the time a Chronoboosted Observer is out is 1:46 seconds. The MSC alone can only cover 30 seconds of detection with it's ability. You might think that is enough time to kill off the three Widow Mines (the second finishes at 5:36, the third at 6:16) that will be built before the Observer is out. But you'd be wrong .Widow Mines have a lot of HP and are as fast as a Stalker, so they can just run away, then run back in when the MSC detection runs out. Also he can camp my Robo with Widow Mines, and if he times it right then my first Observer will die immediately. And at the same time the SCV that built the Factory is blocking my natural now with an Engineering bay. Might not think that is a big deal since I have a Stalker and Zealot out... except I need them to help fend of the Mines (particularly the Stalker, since the MSC has the same range as Widow Mines, meaning that even if it can see them it can't attack them without being able to be hit). And even if I did clear out the Engineering Bay, he could run down his first Mine and burrow it to block my expansion more. So my expansion will be greatly delayed. Oh and 5:46 is the moment the Terran player can expand. And he can block my expansion with the Engineering Bay then a Widow Mine so it doesn't go down until 6:42 (assuming my Observer spawns in sight range of the Widow Mine (but not so close that the Widow Mine kills it) and the Widow Mine is killed immediately). Or he could just throw a huge Marine/SCV all-in at me, I've spent all my gas trying to get detection so I don't have any Sentries and my Stalker count is limited and I've spent all the energy from the MSC on detection so I can't use Purify. Or he could just do a 1-1-1, my expansion is so delayed... pick your poison, this build is incredibly difficult to stop.
I got the beta like 2 weeks ago, and this is what I have been doing every game since my placement matches. (Floating factory into base) Of course I've only gone from bronze to silver with it so far, but I haven't gotten much opportunity to play. I was wondering when it would stop working. I was guessing somewhere around gold. Good to hear it keeps working, and thanks for the GM timings! 
I usually bunker their natural though.
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United States4883 Posts
Just want to add a really good use I've been finding in all matchups: if you open with a 1-1-1 or some kind of factory-based play, it is pretty much always beneficial to send one mine to your opponent's 3rd base. This prevents any kind of fast 3rd base play from happening and causes your opponent to have to expend energy to get expansion up.
I've been doing this a lot and it allows me to easily get a 3rd base up faster than my opponent, assuming no immediate pressure is coming.
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The mine just has to be 1 supply and changed accordingly.
As it stands the widow mine is just an early game unit only which is fantastic against zerg, decent against terran and fairly bad against protoss.
Against zerg the mine is just completely broken at the moment, a mine + wall completely stops any early zerg aggression, you can only kill them with banelings but that requires 3.. They are also great at preventing the third and being safe against mutalisks, they are even decent in your mech push since they trade fine with roaches then.
Against terran it's pretty good at stopping banshee harass and other drops or just preventing them from bumrushing your tanks etc. They feel a bit like reapers though, good early game and useful if you have some left over but you don't actually want to be making them late because there are better answers then for what you need. In mech wars they have some use in keeping your tanks etc safe from banshees making air dominance less important.
Against P they plain suck imo, most times they trade just 1 for 1 with a zealot or stalker doing minimal splash. The stupid MsC makes them way too flimsy for defense. Especially since mech still sucks anyway they tend to be outclassed by bunkers, which are better for defense and are conveniently salvaged when you go on offense. Investing in widow mines when you go bio only makes your stim timings weaker. I feel i rather use my factory to make a reactor for fast medivac production then spend that time to make a widow mine. When medivacs pop terran has map control for a long time and protoss is turtling anyway so there seems little use for widow mines.
If they just removed detection from the MsC (which was the stupidest change ever) and gave it back to the oracle you would see them more, plus we might actually see DT in PvP once again..
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On December 02 2012 23:02 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 10:58 ImANinjaBich wrote:
so i have had about the same success rate as yourself. i will say i have great success with TvT. I usually open up proxy rax and start reaper production. I use the widow mines to take an early 3rd and to box in the terran, i find the proxy reaper denies his gas so tanks dont go up soon enough for me to worry about getting my incoming bio force demilished. i burrow them on ramps, deny expos likeburrowed zerglings, and put them outside of his base where his drops might be leaving from. i completely own the TvT game with that. On the otherhand TvZ is pretty hit or miss and TvP is UTTER failure. observers rock my world. In TvT, the best response I've seen to this is the opponent just getting 2 marauders with concussive shells. It seems like a big investment, but it ironically seems to even out the tech with your widow mine/reaper rush. But yeah, I can see this being a HUGE problem for any terran fast expanding; it looks like TvT will be dominated by gas first builds into some form of 1-1-1 from here on in. Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 12:25 banatboy wrote:
@SC2John: Nah man. Late game goes sideways if your terran opponent goes all mech (tank heavy) with raven support at which point my widow mines are completely useless. TvZ and TvP is a different matter on the other hand :D Elaborate. How do they work in conjunction with bio lategame against zerg or protoss? Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
Chasing around Widow Mines isn't fun, and it makes me not want to play HOTS. I hope they redesign it to be better for late game not be a cheese unit. Dude, that looks awful. I've recently been saying that I think widow mine needs to have less front-loaded damage. It should really have something like 60-80 damage and a larger splash and perhaps a 25-30 second cooldown. This would still allow things like dropping in mineral lines and sniping most T1 units, but would allow players to not lose based on things like immortals or ultras being sniped. It would also cover flanks better and deal with zergling runbys, etc, a little less randomly. Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 18:45 aksfjh wrote:I like how Terran has a whopping 2 general strategies, and no midgame strategies. Lol, kind of why I got bored with terran in WoL. There's really only bio + medivac builds, 1-1-1 builds, and some shaky mech builds. I think terran spends most of it's time trying to figure out what to DO with it's units, but I feel like there's not a huge variation in the composition of armies.
Late Game use for widow mines + Bio against Zerg or Protoss (1 scenario is you meet lings + roach + hydra + infestor on the field (make sure to hide your widow mines till he is in range; now there are2 things you can do at this point. 1 would be to place WM at the back of your forces or use WM to flank enemy forces - and if you force him to retreat; whatever forces he has left gets decimated.You'd need at least 8- 10 widow mines to make substantial damage (provided that enemy units are clumped together)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/screenshot2012111911582.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/screenshot2012111513291.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/screenshot2012111911565.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/screenshot2012111911550.jpg/)
rotoss_Strategy
