EPTNBA General Discussion - Page 28
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
Two sub questions regarding the formula: 1. How does is vorp computed? and explanation 2. How is value per other teammates on the floor computed? like production per different lineup? thanks | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html I don't like VORP or the "Box Plus/Minus" it is based upon. Here is why I don't like it. BPM was created to intentionally only use statistics that are widely available and are available historically. Recently in the NBA far more statistics have been gathered, either from play-by-play or hand tracking, which allow more detailed metrics. BPM does not include that data and should not be as accurate as stats that do include the additional information (assuming they are implemented rigorously!) Although in this particular case I don't like VORP... I wish you well on your quest to find better metrics to assess NBA players. I prefer ESPN Real Plus Minus for evaluating Starters. ESPN recently BOUGHT the statistic from Jeremias Engelmann. Engelmann got hired by the Dallas Mavericks and can no longer work on ESPN Real Plus Minus. In any event, It has stood the test of time. It is a good stat for figuring out the best and worst defenders in the NBA. On March 09 2020 08:10 JimmiC wrote: He would be a good pick, lots of experience with big egos and interesting personalities. I will never be on your level of insight and analysis, but who is? It is a high bar to set. my first suggestion would be to watch more games. the League Pass is now $40 Canadian for the rest of the year. It has a feature called "condensed games" that you can watch in less than 1 hour. I watch games while i'm commuting. For $40 Canadian.. League Pass is really damn good. If you can't afford the $40 PM me and i'll explain how you can watch every game in HD for a small fraction of $40 and its 100% legal. you know me, i'm always willing to help out a friend.  | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
Beverly , Williams and Reggie Jackson all looked bad tonight. The Clippers need a point guard that can step up and run the offense. Whoever takes the bull by the horns.. sit the other 2 guys. Other than PG13 and Kawhi ... the Clippers looked afraid to shoot. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On March 09 2020 14:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I don't like VORP or the "Box Plus/Minus" it is based upon. Here is why I don't like it. Although in this particular case I don't like VORP... I wish you well on your quest to find better metrics to assess NBA players. Can you ELI18 VORP for me in this case. By the way im revering to the revised PER as implemented by NBA QRD for 2020. My understanding is that this is different from the previous years vorp because it incorporates more significant data points. Anyway, ELI18 please I prefer ESPN Real Plus Minus for evaluating Starters. ESPN recently BOUGHT the statistic from Jeremias Engelmann. Engelmann got hired by the Dallas Mavericks and can no longer work on ESPN Real Plus Minus. In any event, It has stood the test of time. It is a good stat for figuring out the best and worst defenders in the NBA. Also ELI18 this version of plus minus. What are the base line data points and what is the tolerance of this? | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On March 09 2020 14:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Lou Williams got used, abused, and exploited by the Lakers offense. I don't think the Clippers can win a title with Lou Williams playing a substantial # of 2nd half minutes. God damn Lou Williams is a bad defender. Beverly , Williams and Reggie Jackson all looked bad tonight. The Clippers need a point guard that can step up and run the offense. Whoever takes the bull by the horns.. sit the other 2 guys. Other than PG13 and Kawhi ... the Clippers looked afraid to shoot. JJ this is your fatal flaw. There is more to basketball than just raw numbers. I have the luxury of working with a sports department in media, and there is a mainstream explanation for this game, and other similar games like this where one team seems to significantly underperform. Clue: Dallas 2011, 2012 Atlanta, 2012 OKC, 2014 Spurs and 2016 Warriors Ask and you shall receive. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
Lou Williams looked confused on switches and was constantly bickering back and forth with team mates about where he should position himself. Lou Williams was gawd awful last night on defense via nothing but the eye test. I didn't look at his #s. If they try to play Lou Williams in critical stretches of the playoffs look for the opposition offense to run thru and over him. It'll be ugly. I respect Doc Rivers' loyalty to the guy.. it is admirable. However, Masai Ujiri demonstrated something in the trades of Derozan and Jonas Valancuinas. All is fair in... love.. war.. and the quest Larry O'Brien Trophy! On March 09 2020 22:40 Twinkle Toes wrote: Can you ELI18 VORP for me in this case. By the way im revering to the revised PER as implemented by NBA QRD for 2020. My understanding is that this is different from the previous years vorp because it incorporates more significant data points. Anyway, ELI18 please Also ELI18 this version of plus minus. What are the base line data points and what is the tolerance of this? ESPN Real Plus Minus is proprietary. Therefore, I can't do that. Here is Jeremias Engelmann's twitter. https://twitter.com/JerryEngelmann He only has 4,000 followers.. He might be able to help you. I've chatted back and forth with him a couple of times in the past. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
You "can't do that" meaning you don't know what ESPN RPM is? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
The playoffs will be here soon. We can revisit this projection at that time. On March 10 2020 09:38 Twinkle Toes wrote: You "can't do that" meaning you don't know what ESPN RPM is? Do you know what "proprietary" means? Engelmann knows how the metric is computed. He isn't telling any one. You might get him to answer your questions though. I don't think he'll tell you how ESPN RPM is computed. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On March 10 2020 09:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I'm not going to spend too much time trying to read Doc Rivers' mind. I will say that if the Clippers try to use Williams a lot past the 1st round of the playoffs the Clippers defense will suffer badly. Many opposition offensive plays will run right thru Lou Williams. The playoffs will be here soon. We can revisit this projection at that time. I know, ask me. as stated, there is precedent to this in 2011 mavs, 2014 spurs, etc as I mentioned earlier. Go ahead ask. Do you know what "proprietary" means? Engelmann knows how the metric is computed. He isn't telling any one. You might get him to answer your questions though. I don't think he'll tell you how ESPN RPM is computed. That's why I'm asking you a direct question, do you know or not know the ESPN RPM? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
On March 10 2020 11:10 Twinkle Toes wrote: I know, ask me. as stated, there is precedent to this in 2011 mavs, 2014 spurs, etc as I mentioned earlier. Go ahead ask. That's why I'm asking you a direct question, do you know or not know the ESPN RPM? LOL. I answered you. I'll answer a 3rd time. No, I do not possess proprietary information. your best bet if u want ur questions is do what i did and message Engelmann. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On March 10 2020 11:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: LOL. I answered you. I'll answer a 3rd time. No, I do not possess proprietary information. your best bet if u want ur questions is do what i did and message Engelmann. Saving this for posteriry jj Also: 1. Is it your position that you don't know why Clippers played Williams despite him being "confused" and "awful on defense"? 2. And, when I offered to tell you how actual experts analyze it, backed with actual data and championship winning experience evidenced by 2011 Mavs, 2014 Spurs, etc., your reaction is you don't want to know actual expert knowledge and you are happy with your own lack of actual knowledge on this [see 1 above]? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On March 10 2020 13:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I have no clue what is going on Doc Rivers' mind. I will take this as your humble and contrite admission of your ignorance of basketball, and indirect request to know actual expert analysis of basketball and not just your own silly mad head canons that you enjoy sharing with us here. So I will share it with you. By way of introduction, can I conclude that you being here in TL means you watch/play bw as well? If you've been here long enough, or love bw enough, you will know that in the hey days of bw, 2008-2012ish, teams used to ninja ladder and beta test builds and strats, without consideration for victory or such. The goal is to see all the possible lines of the build, see how opponents react, and see how they can maximize the builds. This also happens on the opposite side of the build. Another example, if you're a fan of boxing. Do you know who Floyd Mayweather is? Have you seen him fight? Do you see him almost always "weak" in the early rounds, but active with his feints, laterals, jabs, and shakes. And then comeback to dominated in the mid and later rounds of the fight, completely shutting opponents off. Now that you have plenty cross examples as reference to help you slowly and surely understand the principle and mentally prepare you, lets go to basketball. You have seen glimpses of this when Mark Cuban t-rekt Skip on their 2011 win. Let;'s put it this way, you and I and almost everyone here are racing car enthusiasts who marvel at the performance of the finished product. But the QR and in-house data guys are mechanics who built this thing from the ground up. Unless a team apparently sucks, like my NYK, there is a lot more happening under the surface than we even know exists. I have said it here before but I was shocked to learn in mid 2000s that Spurs already had the medtechs in place to plot player lactic buildup, mileage, o2 differentials, etc. Now everyone does it, except maybe the knicks. So see, it is more than "what is going on in Doc Rivers' mind". That's a very uneducated and caveman approach to basketball. Which is why I asked about this in the first place before you derailed me with your crazy mad ramblings which you later admitted you know nothing about. I asked for expert opinion on the new formula, not your amusingly childish and cuckoo insight and analysis. On that topic, if you are near NY, there is a QR congress among media and nba data teams this summer. If you're interested, let me know.. User was banned for this post. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16711 Posts
Norm Powell goes down in the first 2 minutes of the game. So, no Gasol, no Powell, no VanVleet. The Raptors win on the 2nd night of a back to back. https://streamable.com/q48mi OG's baby boy had a little temper tantrum after the game. OG got ejected from the game for giving some corporal punishment to his son. I back OG on this one all the way: Spare the rod.. and spoil the child.Kyle having a little talk with the idiot Utah fans. "i can't hear you i've got a big ring in my ear"... "hey .. go home to your regular job" https://streamable.com/kxcgs Then we have Raptors #1 commentator, Jack Armstrong, calling the Utah fans "idiots" and "complete morons". https://clyp.it/beymskjv?token=e477a13c118ed644488e687e6aef1fd9 Fun Night In Utah! | ||
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Yaqoob
Canada3328 Posts
PS: I don't post much lately but I am an avid reader of the NBA threads (this year, last year etc), and I do follow basketball. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
well deserved, donkey is shit overrated! https://streamable.com/t0he4 | ||
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