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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:33 arb wrote: What the fuck am I supposed to build on Sven? i've literally tried everything :< but if you get even a little behind he feels completely worthless. You quit the game, and re-queue, and play another hero. | ||
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:33 arb wrote: What the fuck am I supposed to build on Sven? i've literally tried everything :< but if you get even a little behind he feels completely worthless. I usually just farm until bkb and mom. If you can get that without losing your whole base because all you've done is farm you Gould be able to just stun a few fools and drop them like its hot. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:34 TheYango wrote: Depends a lot on the game and the teamcomp. what would you say you should usually aim for? all i can really figure 100% is BKB but other than that im still kind of at a loss. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The hero's really flexible depending on who you're with and against, and his role can change a lot. EDIT: Surprisingly, BKB isn't even a 100% item. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:39 TheYango wrote: Give me an example game. The hero's really flexible depending on who you're with and against, and his role can change a lot. For example a game i played earlier which i did really horrible in mostly due to me being ignorant at the start of the game(i.e im not good at dota lolol) This is just a random all pick match but its the most recent game/loss i've had. : Death Prophet/Dark Seer/Alchemist/Bane/Sven vs Pudge/Lina/Anti Mage/Necro/Ogre. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:31 TheYango wrote: I don't disagree with that. What exactly was your point? FF8's system of "monsters leveling up with you' has several problems. 1. It breaks the traditional thought of grinding up to make the game easier. In most RPG games, you can beat a hard portion of the game by powerleveling. In FF8 it also works like that, but quite a bit weaker and have the potential to backfire on you. As far as I know, it's possible to overgrind and make the final boss a lot harder since her HP increases as the party's level increases. It's not normal, and it's very abnormal when the game doesn't tell you about it. It's one of those player traps. 2. Grinding is important in an RPG game. The purpose of grinding is to slow the pace of the game down - without it a player can blitz through the game content fairly quickly and that's not what you want as a developer. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
if you actually do the sidequests and play the card game and use the crafting system you can 1 shot forms of the final boss if you junction correctly, and for me personally things like side quests and playing triple triad are more fun than grinding turn based battles agaisnt enemies that are 0 threat to kill you, (though I am guilty of being a grinder in rpgs where it does pay off) | ||
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:28 Sufficiency wrote: Most RPG games do not have the kind of mechanics built into it that allows the kind of "skill progression" you are talking about. "Skill progression" is not even why people play RPG games. Stuff like Fire Emblem sort of feels like it as you get better as you start thinking more strategically. I know Pokemon isn't a JRPG, but if the game were harder it would probably force you to use all the moves you're given and assemble a team. As you play, you get more of an idea on what to do and how to play. Every game has at least some bit of player progression. Bad JRPGs are simple enough that you know everything very early on. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:44 Sufficiency wrote: FF8's system of "monsters leveling up with you' has several problems. 1. It breaks the traditional thought of grinding up to make the game easier. In most RPG games, you can beat a hard portion of the game by powerleveling. In FF8 it also works like that, but quite a bit weaker and have the potential to backfire on you. As far as I know, it's possible to overgrind and make the final boss a lot harder since her HP increases as the party's level increases. It's not normal, and it's very abnormal when the game doesn't tell you about it. It's one of those player traps. 2. Grinding is important in an RPG game. The purpose of grinding is to slow the pace of the game down - without it a player can blitz through the game content fairly quickly and that's not what you want as a developer. Apparently one or both of us is bad at expressing ourselves because I think we're saying the same thing. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:46 Dark_Chill wrote: Stuff like Fire Emblem sort of feels like it as you get better as you start thinking more strategically. I know Pokemon isn't a JRPG, but if the game were harder it would probably force you to use all the moves you're given and assemble a team. As you play, you get more of an idea on what to do and how to play. Every game has at least some bit of player progression. Bad JRPGs are simple enough that you know everything very early on. I dunno I never had a problem with Fire Emblem games after the first few chapters, once you build up your core characters the game is pretty trivial for the most part | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:43 arb wrote: Death Prophet/Dark Seer/Alchemist/Bane/Sven vs Pudge/Lina/Anti Mage/Necro/Ogre. First thought is that Blink Dagger is an absolute must for that game, for two reasons: 1) You need one to threaten Anti-Mage. Your team has a lot of follow-up skills that can threaten Anti-Mage if you want to catch him farming/split-pushing (DP silence, Bane ulti, Unstable Concoction), but you need a reliable lead-off, which requires a Blink Dagger. The alternative is waiting for support Blinks, which is way too long to be dangerous for AM. 2) Your team will break open the game with the DP+Alche midgame pushing power. The enemy team's straight-up fighting power is way worse than yours at that point in the game and their anti-push is severely lacking. Basically the only way for them to engage a fight like that is to hook somebody and then instakill them with Dismember/Lina combo/Multicast/Reaper's Scythe, and having a Blink Dagger basically lets you instantly counter-dive to save the guy and force the 5v5/5v4 that they won't win. You're also going to need BKB as well because of the sheer high amount of magic damage--you simply wouldn't be able to engage fights properly without one. Those 2 items are going to be your core for that game. Which order you get them in depends on the flow of the early game. Solo-tempo oriented items like Armlet and MoM aren't going to be great for this game because the enemy team's gank/skirmishing is going to be stronger (their heroes can instakill 1-2 people but don't have great 5v5 ability), and your team's midgame revolves heavily around DP and not as much yourself. You're not going to be playing a farm game during the midgame, rather than directing the game through 5-manning. Early Midas could be ok if your development is good though, since it'll smooth out your gold/levels during your 5-man midgame. How your items develop past that depends on the relative development of yourself, DP, and Anti-Mage. I can't really give a specific suggestion because I don't know how the game went, but the safest choice is going to be AC, with Heart, Crit, or Halberd also being reasonable. Satanic also maybe, but I'm not sure about that one. EDIT: I assumed you're playing a core Sven with a support Alche. If it was the other way round, ignore everything I just wrote, lol. EDIT 2: Though Blink+BKB is still probably right even for support Sven here. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:45 Slusher wrote: um if you grind good spells to junction it's every bit as op as being over leveled in a traditional jrpg See that's the thing. You need to know what are good. Let me give you another example: Skyrim. In Skyrim, monsters more or less level up with you. The game doesn't actually tell you that, nor does the game tell you that if you level up crappy skills (e.g. Pickpocket/Speech/etc.) you can inflate your character's level to the point that you cannot make meaningful progression unless you start afresh. It's essentially a trap the game designer laid out for the player. | ||
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Crusnik
United States5378 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:43 arb wrote: For example a game i played earlier which i did really horrible in mostly due to me being ignorant at the start of the game(i.e im not good at dota lolol) This is just a random all pick match but its the most recent game/loss i've had. : Death Prophet/Dark Seer/Alchemist/Bane/Sven vs Pudge/Lina/Anti Mage/Necro/Ogre. So, mostly a support Sven then, you'd probably want drums of endurance, MoM, and maybe a blink? This is with either treads or maybe, MAYBE, mana boots. I'm actually playing Sven now, I would stream, but one of my friend's echos like a motherfucker. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:56 TheYango wrote: First thought is that Blink Dagger is an absolute must for that game, for two reasons: 1) You need one to threaten Anti-Mage. Your team has a lot of follow-up skills that can threaten Anti-Mage if you want to catch him farming/split-pushing (DP silence, Bane ulti, Unstable Concoction), but you need a reliable lead-off, which requires a Blink Dagger. The alternative is waiting for support Blinks, which is way too long to be dangerous for AM. 2) Your team will break open the game with the DP+Alche midgame pushing power. The enemy team's straight-up fighting power is way worse than yours at that point in the game and their anti-push is severely lacking. Basically the only way for them to engage a fight like that is to hook somebody and then instakill them with Dismember/Lina combo/Multicast/Reaper's Scythe, and having a Blink Dagger basically lets you instantly counter-dive to save the guy and force the 5v5/5v4 that they won't win. You're also going to need BKB as well because of the sheer high amount of magic damage--you simply wouldn't be able to engage fights properly without one. Those 2 items are going to be your core for that game. Which order you get them in depends on the flow of the early game. Solo-tempo oriented items like Armlet and MoM aren't going to be great for this game because the enemy team's gank/skirmishing is going to be stronger (their heroes can instakill 1-2 people but don't have great 5v5 ability), and your team's midgame revolves heavily around DP and not as much yourself. You're not going to be playing a farm game during the midgame, rather than directing the game through 5-manning. Early Midas could be ok if your development is good though, since it'll smooth out your gold/levels during your 5-man midgame. How your items develop past that depends on the relative development of yourself, DP, and Anti-Mage. I can't really give a specific suggestion because I don't know how the game went, but the safest choice is going to be AC, with Heart, Crit, or Halberd also being reasonable. Satanic also maybe, but I'm not sure about that one. EDIT: I assumed you're playing a core Sven with a support Alche. If it was the other way round, ignore everything I just wrote, lol. EDIT 2: Though Blink+BKB is still probably right even for support Sven here. I dunno i got stuck in suicide lane because DS wanted to jungle and things went downhill for me there lolol.. I just have no idea when i should be playing like a carry or support tbh. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:58 Sufficiency wrote: See that's the thing. You need to know what are good. Let me give you another example: Skyrim. In Skyrim, monsters more or less level up with you. The game doesn't actually tell you that, nor does the game tell you that if you level up crappy skills (e.g. Pickpocket/Speech/etc.) you can inflate your character's level to the point that you cannot make meaningful progression unless you start afresh. It's essentially a trap the game designer laid out for the player. you can literally rejunction whenever you want by going to the start menu, for free. junction some spells, you suck? back the the drawing board, this was my first playthru in a nutshell and I had a lot of fun with the game, as well as had some decently challenging bossfights like the fight system in this game was really tedious to farm, and the fact that casting spells made you characters weaker was pretty lame for someone who is really stingy like me, so I don't blame people for giving up on the game. But this game holds a special place for me and it really annoys me when people who didn't flesh out all the side quests and such trash the game based on their limited experience trying to rush the final boss(if they even made it past Edea). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2014 13:03 arb wrote: I dunno i got stuck in suicide lane because DS wanted to jungle and things went downhill for me there lolol.. I just have no idea when i should be playing like a carry or support tbh. That's going to suck for you regardless, then. You'll eke out Treads and basic stat items and try to KS your way to more items midgame (or skill 4-4-1 and farm and hope you have items for your midgame push). Your role would still be more or less be the same because even if you were a core Sven, DP is going to be the primary DPS point all the way into lategame. You probably won't get more items than Treads+Blink+BKB so you might want some more basic stats items like Bracer+Wand (I wouldn't commit to Drums unless some weird shit happened because your Blink and BKB timings are really important). You basically are going to end up as a reliable engaging/counter-engaging stun and fight shit that tries to kill DP while she's steamrolling towers and winning the game for you. If she's retarded and suicides or generally does stupid shit, then that kind of sucks because an offlane Sven isn't going to be able to fix that, lol. Personally I would have thrown the Alche to the offlane and safe laned the Sven because Sven's items are way more important than Alche's to this teamcomp, but whatever pub games. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On October 12 2014 12:22 Slusher wrote: I actually own a bunch of irl triple triad cards lol I can't remember where I got them (they are the japanese version not sure if us exists) but yea. kinda pointless since I have nobody to play against but the collector in me can't help myself sometimes also 8 was really good in pretty much every aspect but the battle system, and despite it being bad you could get some pretty epic fights using Draw>cast there were a lot of things about that game that were mind blowing at the time of release, the graphics, the FMV movies just happening mid gameplay, that wasn't something that games could do before that game came out. also Laguna was cool but Irvine was the best character pls px My roommate ripped off the idea of Triple Triad for a math project. The assignment was to make a game up that used math, so he dumbed down the rules a bit and tada, easy A! | ||
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