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On September 28 2014 06:16 sung_moon wrote:
So, asking from teh perspective of a scrub in LoL who's never played DoTA, whats the differences between a "melee carry" in DoTA vs. a fed Yi/Trynd/Jax whom I'd classify as a melee carry then?
Then again, I've noticed hard carries in DoTA can legit 1v5 carry vs. fed LoL ADC's who still need help from team.
Give one of those champions Garen-style defensive steriods, and you have a DotA melee Carry. Think Oldschool GP back when Atmogs was good.
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Pre-rework Jax when dodge was still in the game woulda been close I guess. Yi doesn't count because he blows up (it's just if he kills you fast enough you can't target him because resets, same with Kha'Zix being annoying for point'n'click and his initial lack of animations that didn't even let you react) and Tryndamere is super kitable so he's reliant on his team to either have damage threats that prevents you from ignoring them while you deal with him, or initiators/cc champions to lock people down.
Which is why he works better as a splitpusher.
Whereas Jax would crush people not because of huge damage, but because he'd have very respectable damage while being absurdly tanky (which isn't the case anymore, even though his theorical dps is higher now; it wasn't the case even before his base stats nerfs anyway).
Most "melee carries" in LoL are actually just champions with auto-attack steroids (so it includes Riven), high initial burst (Tryndamere 2 garanteed crits off of Shout -> Spin qualify) and good enough mobility/dps (through resets for some) to be clean-up gods.
Interestingly enough that could include Irelia, but her lack of scaling past midgame and first AS item (or 2) makes her more of an assassin.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 28 2014 06:23 Alaric wrote:
Interestingly enough that could include Irelia, but her lack of scaling past midgame and first AS item (or 2) makes her more of an assassin.
There's not really a necessary implication of lategame hyper-scaling in the term melee carry in DotA either. Heroes like Ursa and Slardar (who peak around 1st/2nd item timing in DotA as well) are just as much "melee carries" under the umbrella of that broad term as Anti-Mage and Spectre.
So really, the term melee carry refers broadly to the class of champions known as bruisers in LoL and somehow people got the expectation for it to mean something different/more specific when it doesn't.
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On September 28 2014 06:03 Crusnik wrote:
There are melee carries in League? Coulda fooled me...
Tristana is a melee ap carry, lrn2playuscrub.
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On September 28 2014 06:23 Alaric wrote:
Pre-rework Jax when dodge was still in the game woulda been close I guess. Yi doesn't count because he blows up (it's just if he kills you fast enough you can't target him because resets, same with Kha'Zix being annoying for point'n'click and his initial lack of animations that didn't even let you react) and Tryndamere is super kitable so he's reliant on his team to either have damage threats that prevents you from ignoring them while you deal with him, or initiators/cc champions to lock people down.
Which is why he works better as a splitpusher.
Whereas Jax would crush people not because of huge damage, but because he'd have very respectable damage while being absurdly tanky (which isn't the case anymore, even though his theorical dps is higher now; it wasn't the case even before his base stats nerfs anyway).
Most "melee carries" in LoL are actually just champions with auto-attack steroids (so it includes Riven), high initial burst (Tryndamere 2 garanteed crits off of Shout -> Spin qualify) and good enough mobility/dps (through resets for some) to be clean-up gods.
Interestingly enough that could include Irelia, but her lack of scaling past midgame and first AS item (or 2) makes her more of an assassin.
beta jax and udyr post buff
release xin
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On September 28 2014 06:34 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:23 Alaric wrote:
Pre-rework Jax when dodge was still in the game woulda been close I guess. Yi doesn't count because he blows up (it's just if he kills you fast enough you can't target him because resets, same with Kha'Zix being annoying for point'n'click and his initial lack of animations that didn't even let you react) and Tryndamere is super kitable so he's reliant on his team to either have damage threats that prevents you from ignoring them while you deal with him, or initiators/cc champions to lock people down.
Which is why he works better as a splitpusher.
Whereas Jax would crush people not because of huge damage, but because he'd have very respectable damage while being absurdly tanky (which isn't the case anymore, even though his theorical dps is higher now; it wasn't the case even before his base stats nerfs anyway).
Most "melee carries" in LoL are actually just champions with auto-attack steroids (so it includes Riven), high initial burst (Tryndamere 2 garanteed crits off of Shout -> Spin qualify) and good enough mobility/dps (through resets for some) to be clean-up gods.
Interestingly enough that could include Irelia, but her lack of scaling past midgame and first AS item (or 2) makes her more of an assassin. beta jax and udyr post buff release xin
pre-nerf gp, caller's build.
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On September 28 2014 06:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 06:23 Alaric wrote:
Interestingly enough that could include Irelia, but her lack of scaling past midgame and first AS item (or 2) makes her more of an assassin. There's not really a necessary implication of lategame hyper-scaling in the term melee carry in DotA either. Heroes like Ursa and Slardar (who peak around 1st/2nd item timing in DotA as well) are just as much "melee carries" under the umbrella of that broad term as Anti-Mage and Spectre. So really, the term melee carry refers broadly to the class of champions known as bruisers in LoL and somehow people got the expectation for it to mean something different/more specific when it doesn't.
Are there even heroes in Doto comparable to Yi or Trynd? Maybe PA?
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+ Show Spoiler [LoL part] +I dunno, I tend to think of bruisers as champions who build a mix of offensive and defensive items, but mostly defensive because with nerfs on Wit's End, and Ionic Spark being replaced by Statik Shiv, and the high power of crit in LoL (I mean, I get that crit hurts in DotA too, but aren't most multipliers below 2 on top of there only being one item path for crit?) means whatever their steroids are they don't necessarily go well with it.
Champions who aren't cast-based and build fully offensive (like Fiora for some people, Yi, Tryndamere, Riven in some cases) are closer to assassins for me because they aren't able to just in the fight, they need setup, even if they're inherently strong at 1v1 and thus at cleaning up too.
Then there's Riot classification of fighters... Tanks are champions with tankiness and utility directed at the enemy (cc, initiation, zoning, etc.), assassins are champions relying on a powerful burst aiming at 100-0ing one enemy, usually combined with mobility, and fighters are champions combining sustained damage and moderate tankiness.
That classification works for "what can a champion do", I guess, but not for their roles ingame, which is another problem.
Irelia's an assassin at heart, during the midgame but she can take on several opponents using her ult, especially if she's ahead, or contribute good sustained damage if the fight lasts long enough for Hiten Style and Bladesurge to come off cd.
On the other hand once the game goes later she can't 100-0 a squishy anymore (and cc tends to become stronger anyway, wasting more of its duration), plus due to how W scales she will rarely get much mileage from more than Triforce+Zerkers, so she can build full tank from that point on, and act as a real frontline that soaks up damage and aims more at peeling or chasing people off the fight than reliably kill by herself (or they can pile up on a single one of course).
But in that case she's still different from, say, Mundo or Yi.
How do you tend to classify heroes in DotA? I assume Centaur is kind of a tank/initiator most of the time because of his ult and since he has cc too, but say Bristleback, who has good damage output without items and builds full tank, but doesn't have much cc, do you call that a tank too? They aren't usually considered carries, right?
I think it's because LoL's definition of a tank is skewed toward cc. The tankiness is just there to allow them to get in range, and survive for several rotations (if Maokai Ws someone they'll instinctively pile on him). Nautilus doesn't draw aggro because he's dangerous but usually because he makes it hard to move past him anyway, and provides a big target.
But you don't attack Bristleback because of his Goo but because if ignored he's going to wreck you, right? He's not drawing attention in the same way. And I don't know if these roles can be compared.
Shen would more easily fit that "draw aggro through threat" but he needs items for that so it's way later.
Actually Shen's weird. He doesn't have much for cc, his damage is rather poor early on, all he has is his ult and the fact he's hard to kill. It's like he's more of a support (albeit a tanky one) in the early/mid game, and becomes a fully-fledged tank in the lategame when he can afford an offensive item and to go deep into the enemy team and force them to deal with him or lose their marksman.
(Which probably isn't true anymore since IE is back in style and is the one doing the wrecking of anyone diving you.)
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Did I trip and fall into GD or something?
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On September 28 2014 05:25 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 05:23 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 05:09 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 28 2014 05:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 04:57 Cixah wrote:On September 28 2014 04:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
It's not called a pentakill in Dota 2 you fucking casual. Go back to league, with your instant turn speed and lack of denying ability. I killed 5 people. It's a penta. as long as we agree that orbwalking doesn't exist in league of legends. I mean, not like it does in Dota, but the term has been adopted in the League lexicon to just mean stutter stepping. It's pretty ingrained at this point too. League's lexicon is full of misusing words and terms. see nightblue for examples. its always been hard for me to read or listen to anyone seriously using it. the use of orbwalking in LoL is one of the most irritating things also backdooring
The worst is "proc." Outside of crits, it should almost never be used when discussing league.
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On September 28 2014 06:58 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler [LoL part] +I dunno, I tend to think of bruisers as champions who build a mix of offensive and defensive items, but mostly defensive because with nerfs on Wit's End, and Ionic Spark being replaced by Statik Shiv, and the high power of crit in LoL (I mean, I get that crit hurts in DotA too, but aren't most multipliers below 2 on top of there only being one item path for crit?) means whatever their steroids are they don't necessarily go well with it.
Champions who aren't cast-based and build fully offensive (like Fiora for some people, Yi, Tryndamere, Riven in some cases) are closer to assassins for me because they aren't able to just in the fight, they need setup, even if they're inherently strong at 1v1 and thus at cleaning up too.
Then there's Riot classification of fighters... Tanks are champions with tankiness and utility directed at the enemy (cc, initiation, zoning, etc.), assassins are champions relying on a powerful burst aiming at 100-0ing one enemy, usually combined with mobility, and fighters are champions combining sustained damage and moderate tankiness.
That classification works for "what can a champion do", I guess, but not for their roles ingame, which is another problem.
Irelia's an assassin at heart, during the midgame but she can take on several opponents using her ult, especially if she's ahead, or contribute good sustained damage if the fight lasts long enough for Hiten Style and Bladesurge to come off cd.
On the other hand once the game goes later she can't 100-0 a squishy anymore (and cc tends to become stronger anyway, wasting more of its duration), plus due to how W scales she will rarely get much mileage from more than Triforce+Zerkers, so she can build full tank from that point on, and act as a real frontline that soaks up damage and aims more at peeling or chasing people off the fight than reliably kill by herself (or they can pile up on a single one of course).
But in that case she's still different from, say, Mundo or Yi. How do you tend to classify heroes in DotA? I assume Centaur is kind of a tank/initiator most of the time because of his ult and since he has cc too, but say Bristleback, who has good damage output without items and builds full tank, but doesn't have much cc, do you call that a tank too? They aren't usually considered carries, right? I think it's because LoL's definition of a tank is skewed toward cc. The tankiness is just there to allow them to get in range, and survive for several rotations (if Maokai Ws someone they'll instinctively pile on him). Nautilus doesn't draw aggro because he's dangerous but usually because he makes it hard to move past him anyway, and provides a big target. But you don't attack Bristleback because of his Goo but because if ignored he's going to wreck you, right? He's not drawing attention in the same way. And I don't know if these roles can be compared. Shen would more easily fit that "draw aggro through threat" but he needs items for that so it's way later. Actually Shen's weird. He doesn't have much for cc, his damage is rather poor early on, all he has is his ult and the fact he's hard to kill. It's like he's more of a support (albeit a tanky one) in the early/mid game, and becomes a fully-fledged tank in the lategame when he can afford an offensive item and to go deep into the enemy team and force them to deal with him or lose their marksman. (Which probably isn't true anymore since IE is back in style and is the one doing the wrecking of anyone diving you.)
Perfect example of how confused LoL community is.
Dota doesn't define heroes like that because well it's dumb. You have strength, agi and inteligence. If you want to get a bit deeper you get cores and supports. Cores get primary farm allocation and supports well don't. Within the cores you get cores that need farm to scale with items(Carries) and then you get the cores that need farm to provide other benefits(Initiation or utility items at faster timings than a support can offer). "Tanks, Fighters, Bruisers,Casters" are all fucking dumb definitions that try to pigeon hole heroes into categories based on arbitrary definitions with arbitrary rules. Stop thinking in terms of that. All it does is completely confuse you as the game is no where near simple enough to simplify things like that.
Certain supports can transition into core roles but that's generally rare as it's more important to clear waves fast than it is to get best gold out distribution later.
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On September 28 2014 07:19 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 05:25 Frolossus wrote:On September 28 2014 05:23 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 05:09 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 28 2014 05:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 04:57 Cixah wrote:On September 28 2014 04:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
It's not called a pentakill in Dota 2 you fucking casual. Go back to league, with your instant turn speed and lack of denying ability. I killed 5 people. It's a penta. as long as we agree that orbwalking doesn't exist in league of legends. I mean, not like it does in Dota, but the term has been adopted in the League lexicon to just mean stutter stepping. It's pretty ingrained at this point too. League's lexicon is full of misusing words and terms. see nightblue for examples. its always been hard for me to read or listen to anyone seriously using it. the use of orbwalking in LoL is one of the most irritating things also backdooring The worst is "proc." Outside of crits, it should almost never be used when discussing league.
When is this used incorrectly? It was used back when phage slow'd, but that was an appropriate usage imo.
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On September 28 2014 07:30 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 07:19 Gahlo wrote:On September 28 2014 05:25 Frolossus wrote:On September 28 2014 05:23 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 05:09 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 28 2014 05:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 04:57 Cixah wrote:On September 28 2014 04:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
It's not called a pentakill in Dota 2 you fucking casual. Go back to league, with your instant turn speed and lack of denying ability. I killed 5 people. It's a penta. as long as we agree that orbwalking doesn't exist in league of legends. I mean, not like it does in Dota, but the term has been adopted in the League lexicon to just mean stutter stepping. It's pretty ingrained at this point too. League's lexicon is full of misusing words and terms. see nightblue for examples. its always been hard for me to read or listen to anyone seriously using it. the use of orbwalking in LoL is one of the most irritating things also backdooring The worst is "proc." Outside of crits, it should almost never be used when discussing league. When is this used incorrectly? It was used back when phage slow'd, but that was an appropriate usage imo.
People use it all the time for when things get tiggered. "Fizz Q procs lichbane!"
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On September 28 2014 07:33 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 07:30 wei2coolman wrote:On September 28 2014 07:19 Gahlo wrote:On September 28 2014 05:25 Frolossus wrote:On September 28 2014 05:23 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 05:09 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 28 2014 05:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 04:57 Cixah wrote:On September 28 2014 04:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
It's not called a pentakill in Dota 2 you fucking casual. Go back to league, with your instant turn speed and lack of denying ability. I killed 5 people. It's a penta. as long as we agree that orbwalking doesn't exist in league of legends. I mean, not like it does in Dota, but the term has been adopted in the League lexicon to just mean stutter stepping. It's pretty ingrained at this point too. League's lexicon is full of misusing words and terms. see nightblue for examples. its always been hard for me to read or listen to anyone seriously using it. the use of orbwalking in LoL is one of the most irritating things also backdooring The worst is "proc." Outside of crits, it should almost never be used when discussing league. When is this used incorrectly? It was used back when phage slow'd, but that was an appropriate usage imo. People use it all the time for when things get tiggered. "Fizz Q procs lichbane!"
Oh, I guess that's sort of off compared to origin. But considering it is conditional, and not always up on hit, it could be considered a proc?
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United States47024 Posts
Technically Lichbane is a "chance on spell cast to cause your next autoattack to do 75% base AD + 50% AP bonus magic damage"--the trigger chance just happens to be 100%. 
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On September 28 2014 07:19 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 05:25 Frolossus wrote:On September 28 2014 05:23 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 05:09 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 28 2014 05:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 28 2014 04:57 Cixah wrote:On September 28 2014 04:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
It's not called a pentakill in Dota 2 you fucking casual. Go back to league, with your instant turn speed and lack of denying ability. I killed 5 people. It's a penta. as long as we agree that orbwalking doesn't exist in league of legends. I mean, not like it does in Dota, but the term has been adopted in the League lexicon to just mean stutter stepping. It's pretty ingrained at this point too. League's lexicon is full of misusing words and terms. see nightblue for examples. its always been hard for me to read or listen to anyone seriously using it. the use of orbwalking in LoL is one of the most irritating things also backdooring The worst is "proc." Outside of crits, it should almost never be used when discussing league.
what is the correct way to use it?
i see it more in diablo for everything than league
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On September 28 2014 07:16 WaveofShadow wrote:
Did I trip and fall into GD or something?
Right?
In other news, Ghandi hates paras, I will crush him. If he dares face me.
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United States47024 Posts
Two slots for a newbie/smurf doto game if anyone's interested.
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On September 28 2014 08:15 TheYango wrote:
Two slots for a newbie/smurf doto game if anyone's interested.
If you're still playing in a while mebbe I join for a bit.
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EPT
