On June 30 2013 10:22 Shellshock1122 wrote:
I've actually decided that I hope Sound gets a good result. He lost in the finals of the Red Bull tournament and then missed the Code A qualifiers because he stayed until MLG, so he's out of WCS for this season. He could use something to go his way.

Sounds play has been pretty sick to watch too, really entertaining

Loxley

Netherlands2480 Posts

June 30 2013 01:24 GMT

#4303

On June 30 2013 10:22 _SpiRaL_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 30 2013 10:20 DamageControL wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:17 _SpiRaL_ wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:15 DamageControL wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:10 _SpiRaL_ wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:08 DamageControL wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:05 _SpiRaL_ wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:04 TTOMZ wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:03 _SpiRaL_ wrote:

On June 30 2013 10:01 TTOMZ wrote:
I think this Catz thing is silly and people are being silly, is Catz even considered a pro player anymore? I see him more as an acting manager you could say, playing for moral support

Coach Park is playing in this MLG right? So imagine if he'd got paired with an EG or TL player in his first game. Do you think he would have played vs them? No he's of forfeited his place. He's playing for fun and if he ever ran into an EG or TL player he would simple give them the bye

I see Catz as being in the same situation

Of course he would have played. This also does not even attempt to evaluate the actual issue. Just "its fine because Catz sucks"? That is not a good reason.

When did i say Catz sucks? I said he's not seen as a pro player anymore. He doesn't play to win major tournements be plays for moral support for his team

And its the exact same situation

Again no actual points here. Catz isnt a pro therefore its ok. That is NOT RELEVANT.

Why is it a problem? Or rather, in what world is "throwing matches" avoidable?

People say rushing probes is unacceptable. I think how we handled the NaNi incident was bad. You can't force someone to try.

You say it "hurts the integrity of the tournament." How? What's the impact? What harm does it do to the tournament? There will not be sudden rash of people throwing games--there are a fairly unique set of circumstances where it's beneficial to both parties.

Answer my questions above please.

LG-IM all 4 semi finalists, forfeit to give MVP the win. Fine?

Its not a unique set of circumstances. There is nothing unique about it. It is a principle. Either its acceptable or not. Black and white.

You can't force someone to try. But you can disqualify them if you think they didn't try deliberately in order to influence the outcome.

1. Yes it's fine.
2. You keep saying it's acceptable or not, black or white. I'm saying it's fine. You're saying it's not. But you aren't substantiating your claim. You keep claiming IT'S NEVER OK. I believe that it is fine for two reasons: a) it's unenforceable (Catz can suddenly and inexplicably show up late, etc.) b) I don't see what's wrong with it ethically.
3. What's the threshold for effort there? Do we keep a magic effort meter somewhere?
4. You still haven't answered my question: what happens that is so bad here?

it is enforceable. You can disqualify if you have evidence it was done deliberately.

Ethically it is not acceptable because he has given a team mate a free pass. He didn't have to play a match in the tournament. They have manipulated the brackets to their advantage and affected the integrity of the whole tournament.

Do you think what Savior did is fine?

1. How would you collect this evidence?

2. No what savior did was not fine because it was:
a. Not explicit (this matter less but people don't like being deceived)
b. There was money being gambled and he was fixing it--which is actually illegal

Please define what the "integrity" of a tournament is. I don't know how to point out it's not violating that spirit otherwise.

1. Same way you collect any evidence.
2. I don't disagree that there is a difference, but the ethical principle is similar. That was the reason for my analogy. Not to make it seem like they were the same situation. The explanation of the difference between them to reveal the ethical reasoning is the important thing (before people misunderstand me).

Integrity of the tournament=the belief that the tournament is played ethically with full effort from all players involved so that the results can be trusted.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=419319&currentpage=190#3794

Page 190 is where this discussion started.

Really guys, make a topic or (since its two guys arguing) Use a PM

Dodgin

Canada39254 Posts

June 30 2013 01:24 GMT

#4304

On June 30 2013 10:23 Shellshock1122 wrote:

Stats 2-0

RemarK
faces

Suppy next

RIP Suppygod he had a good run

ntssauce

Germany750 Posts

June 30 2013 01:24 GMT

#4305

i hate bubbles so much for abusing every stupid build protoss has

Heinsenzerg

Argentina2279 Posts

June 30 2013 01:24 GMT

#4306

cool blink build by bubble wins him the first against kawaii

Dosey

United States4505 Posts

June 30 2013 01:24 GMT

#4307

Bubbles just went up 1-0 against KawaiiRice....

Dude's a fuckin' wizard.

LighT.

Canada4501 Posts

June 30 2013 01:25 GMT

#4308

On June 30 2013 10:23 Shellshock1122 wrote:

Stats 2-0

RemarK
faces

Suppy next

We have yet to see a huge upset of a foreigner over a korean.
It happens at least once or twice every MLG.
I fear for Stats.
Hoping the curse is on soO.

AlgeriaT

Sweden2197 Posts

June 30 2013 01:25 GMT

#4309

Fuck it, I'm starting to really like this Bubbles guy.

Laryleprakon

New Zealand9496 Posts

June 30 2013 01:25 GMT

#4310

Gogo Bubbles!

Serpico

4285 Posts

June 30 2013 01:25 GMT

#4311

On June 30 2013 10:24 ntssauce wrote:
i hate bubbles so much for abusing every stupid build protoss has

Well protoss is the gimmick race and overall the worst (imo) because of it. Lots of gimmicks to cover up weaknesses. Top level play toss always seems to be a bit behind other races, but for players like bubbles he can feast on lower level players with one dimensional play.

BronzeKnee

United States5226 Posts

June 30 2013 01:25 GMT

#4312

On June 30 2013 10:25 AlgeriaT wrote:
Fuck it, I'm starting to really like this Bubbles guy.

Darnit, I missed it.

Was it a Blink all-in?

Musicus

Germany23580 Posts

June 30 2013 01:25 GMT

#4313

On June 30 2013 10:22 wuhan_clan wrote:
You can say Catz is only playing for fun/moral support w/e so he can choose to forfeit. Why even enter the competition in the first place if you aren't going to give it your all? All it does is make the tournament look like a semi-serious tournament. But that's been the image of MLG historically and thats the allure of MLG, that amateurs can enter and compete alongside pros.

Personally I think Catz should have played Kane and give it his all and Kane can prove himself by winning against his teammate/coach/manager. I think Catz put Kane in a lose/lose situation by forfeiting.

But MLG obviously is not going to care about this incident so I don't know why we should either.

The thing is nobody knows yet whether Catz forfeited because of an emergancy or something. If he really just wanted Kane to advance then I am pretty sure MLG cares and they will both be penalized.

From the MLG rules.

Competitors may not intentionally Forfeit a Game or conspire to manipulate Rankings or Brackets.

Shellshock

United States97277 Posts

June 30 2013 01:26 GMT

#4314

On June 30 2013 10:24 Dosey wrote:
Bubbles just went up 1-0 against KawaiiRice....

Dude's a fuckin' wizard.

aligulac has him favored D:

      (1048) Bubbles  0-0  KawaiiRice (890)    
-----------------------------------------------
          32.14% 2-0       0-2  18.75%         
          27.84% 2-1       1-2  21.26%         
-----------------------------------------------
              59.98%        40.02%             

Median outcome: Bubbles 2-1 KawaiiRice

Estimated by Aligulac. Modify.