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Stop arguing about what is or isn't killing tournaments. |
On January 20 2013 05:05 Fourn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 04:35 iamahydralisk wrote:On January 20 2013 04:30 totauksz wrote:Kas is a much much much better player than Socke, sad that he didn't won  Posts like this always rustle my jimmies. We just saw them play a bo5 head to head series. Socke won. And Socke was first in his group. How exactly is Kas a "much much much better player?" It's comments like this that lower eSports credibility as a "real" sport because in sports like soccer, baseball, basketball, American football, etc... You never hear "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y." Instead, you hear "team y was the better team and team x got beat." No excuses. That's just not true at all. I don't agree Kas is a better player (I'd say they are about equal), but a team/player that is very good can lose to a team/player that is worse than they are and still be considered better. For example, it's not abnormal for the one of the best teams in basketball, say the Miami Heat, to lose to one of the worst teams, like the Washington Wizards. If the Wizards beat Miami, everyone would still think Miami was the better team, they just had a bad game. So, you're wrong, you do hear things like "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y" in other sports. It's called an 'upset'.
I'm not wrong because you'll never hear sportscasters saying things like "oh yeah team x is so much better even though they lost, team y didn't deserve it, etc etc." Especially in tournament settings. For example, NFL playoffs. It's incredibly uncommon to hear "team x is still better" after team y has ended team x's season. It's the same for every major sport that has a playoff system (and seeing as how SC2 doesn't have one de-facto "ultimate tournament," we can pretty easily equate every major lan tournament to playoffs in any major sport). The only major sport I know of (American or otherwise) where you'll hear crap like "team x is still better, games don't matter" even after team x got beat on the field by team y is American college football, and you know what? The ranking and postseason system of American college football are the laughing stock of every other major sport.
the overall bottom line is, when two teams/players duke it out on the field, especially in a tournament setting, it's really ignorant and quite frankly disrespectful to claim that the games we just watched with our own eyes don't matter and the losing player is still better. Upsets do happen, yes, but you're never going to hear "team x is still much better" (which implies that the head to head doesn't even matter), even after an upset. At best, you'll hear something to the effect of "team x may have better results, but team y was better today." That's an entirely different statement and that's what you'll hear from major sports. None of this excuse making that invalidates the winning player's accomplishment.
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On January 20 2013 06:23 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:05 Fourn wrote:On January 20 2013 04:35 iamahydralisk wrote:On January 20 2013 04:30 totauksz wrote:Kas is a much much much better player than Socke, sad that he didn't won Posts like this always rustle my jimmies. We just saw them play a bo5 head to head series. Socke won. And Socke was first in his group. How exactly is Kas a "much much much better player?" It's comments like this that lower eSports credibility as a "real" sport because in sports like soccer, baseball, basketball, American football, etc... You never hear "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y." Instead, you hear "team y was the better team and team x got beat." No excuses. That's just not true at all. I don't agree Kas is a better player (I'd say they are about equal), but a team/player that is very good can lose to a team/player that is worse than they are and still be considered better. For example, it's not abnormal for the one of the best teams in basketball, say the Miami Heat, to lose to one of the worst teams, like the Washington Wizards. If the Wizards beat Miami, everyone would still think Miami was the better team, they just had a bad game. So, you're wrong, you do hear things like "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y" in other sports. It's called an 'upset'. I'm not wrong because you'll never hear sportscasters saying things like "oh yeah team x is so much better even though they lost, team y didn't deserve it, etc etc." Especially in tournament settings. For example, NFL playoffs. It's incredibly uncommon to hear "team x is still better" after team y has ended team x's season. It's the same for every major sport that has a playoff system (and seeing as how SC2 doesn't have one de-facto "ultimate tournament," we can pretty easily equate every major lan tournament to playoffs in any major sport). The only major sport I know of (American or otherwise) where you'll hear crap like "team x is still better, games don't matter" even after team x got beat on the field by team y is American college football, and you know what? The ranking and postseason system of American college football are the laughing stock of every other major sport. the overall bottom line is, when two teams/players duke it out on the field, especially in a tournament setting, it's really ignorant and quite frankly disrespectful to claim that the games we just watched with our own eyes don't matter and the losing player is still better. Upsets do happen, yes, but you're never going to hear "team x is still much better" (which implies that the head to head doesn't even matter), even after an upset. At best, you'll hear something to the effect of "team x may have better results, but team y was better today." That's an entirely different statement and that's what you'll hear from major sports. None of this excuse making that invalidates the winning player's accomplishment.
Eh, people say X is still better than Y after X loses a game or gets knocked out of a tournament in pretty much every sport, from chess to football. Even professional sports casters and analysts say things like that quite often, nevermind the fans. There's nothing wrong with saying things like that, either. A worse player or team can beat one that is stronger overall, it happens all the time, saying that X is still better doesn't diminish the victory somehow or whatever.
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While being Socke's countryman, I am a bit sad that Kas was eliminated.
Always a dedicated player, he has gotten screwed by visa issues so often, that you got to feel incredibly sorry for him.
That being sad, gogo Socke! I don't think he has a realistic chance against First, but I also would've never thought that he would go past Yoda and finish first in his group!
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On January 20 2013 06:29 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:23 iamahydralisk wrote:On January 20 2013 05:05 Fourn wrote:On January 20 2013 04:35 iamahydralisk wrote:On January 20 2013 04:30 totauksz wrote:Kas is a much much much better player than Socke, sad that he didn't won Posts like this always rustle my jimmies. We just saw them play a bo5 head to head series. Socke won. And Socke was first in his group. How exactly is Kas a "much much much better player?" It's comments like this that lower eSports credibility as a "real" sport because in sports like soccer, baseball, basketball, American football, etc... You never hear "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y." Instead, you hear "team y was the better team and team x got beat." No excuses. That's just not true at all. I don't agree Kas is a better player (I'd say they are about equal), but a team/player that is very good can lose to a team/player that is worse than they are and still be considered better. For example, it's not abnormal for the one of the best teams in basketball, say the Miami Heat, to lose to one of the worst teams, like the Washington Wizards. If the Wizards beat Miami, everyone would still think Miami was the better team, they just had a bad game. So, you're wrong, you do hear things like "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y" in other sports. It's called an 'upset'. I'm not wrong because you'll never hear sportscasters saying things like "oh yeah team x is so much better even though they lost, team y didn't deserve it, etc etc." Especially in tournament settings. For example, NFL playoffs. It's incredibly uncommon to hear "team x is still better" after team y has ended team x's season. It's the same for every major sport that has a playoff system (and seeing as how SC2 doesn't have one de-facto "ultimate tournament," we can pretty easily equate every major lan tournament to playoffs in any major sport). The only major sport I know of (American or otherwise) where you'll hear crap like "team x is still better, games don't matter" even after team x got beat on the field by team y is American college football, and you know what? The ranking and postseason system of American college football are the laughing stock of every other major sport. the overall bottom line is, when two teams/players duke it out on the field, especially in a tournament setting, it's really ignorant and quite frankly disrespectful to claim that the games we just watched with our own eyes don't matter and the losing player is still better. Upsets do happen, yes, but you're never going to hear "team x is still much better" (which implies that the head to head doesn't even matter), even after an upset. At best, you'll hear something to the effect of "team x may have better results, but team y was better today." That's an entirely different statement and that's what you'll hear from major sports. None of this excuse making that invalidates the winning player's accomplishment. Eh, people say X is still better than Y after X loses a game or gets knocked out of a tournament in pretty much every sport, from chess to football. Even professional sports casters and analysts say things like that quite often, nevermind the fans. There's nothing wrong with saying things like that, either. A worse player or team can beat one that is stronger overall, it happens all the time, saying that X is still better doesn't diminish the victory somehow or whatever.
it depends entirely on the situation. in the regular season in sports, it's definitely an upset if the worst team in the league stats wise beats the best team. however, that doesn't really apply here. Starcraft doesn't really have a "regular season." It's all big tournaments which are basically playoffs. To give an example of how it's different, take a look at this. I don't know how much you follow American football so it might have less of an impact on you, but here goes anyway.
Tomorrow, the semifinals of the NFL playoffs are happening. Let's take one of the games, San Francisco vs Atlanta, as an example. Even though the teams had different records during the regular season (let's say San Fran had a worse regular season, for example's sake), do you really think the sportscasters are going to lead off with "Even though San Fran won, Atlanta was and still is a better team" on Monday if San Fran wins? No, they won't, because in a tournament environment, people just don't say that. Same with the Super Bowl itself. After it's over, how many analysts are going to be saying "the losing team is still better." Probably none.
The overall point I'm trying to make is, when you have two adversaries with similar past achievements, I don't see how you can logically say player x (Kas) is still significantly better when we just saw the two players go head to head and player y (Socke) won. It'd be different if you had a no-name going up against an accomplished player (Parting losing to an unknown foreigner, for example), but this is a situation where we have two relatively equal players (as far as accomplishments goes) playing each other, and it definitely diminishes the victory for the winning player when you have people saying they're still worse even though they just proved how good they were in an area far more important than stats or accomplishments, that being the head to head arena.
And yes, I'm aware that in past games, Kas may have had the upper hand, but that was then and this is now. I just don't see why it's so hard to say that Socke was the better player today, and is probably the better player overall because they have similar skill levels and Socke won the head to head today.
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Wow, may well be an all Protoss top 4. Sucks I missed Socke vs Kas, I love to see those guys doing well. Two of my favourite EU players.
Come on Dream and Yoda! Keep Terran alive!
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On January 20 2013 07:14 Larkin wrote:
Wow, may well be an all Protoss top 4. Sucks I missed Socke vs Kas, I love to see those guys doing well. Two of my favourite EU players.
Come on Dream and Yoda! Keep Terran alive!
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff. Zerg is dead. might as well give Protoss another top4. You know. The race that has won as much as Zerg inthe last months, but somehow has gotten away without massive whine against.
PS: I'm drunk. Infestors imba. Or something. Don't care. Come on EU and play me in Custom. And win ez pz. This is not banable, because I'm a nice person 
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Wow First. 13 game winning streak not bad.
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I just came back from the venue and today was a blast. So much better than friday.
Parting signed my keyboard, so happy about that. (so did other players/casters THX!, Grubby signed my spacebar  )
Even talked to Carmac, he is so humble.
The only downside was the entrance, fucking horror. few hours of waiting, but after that it was amazing.
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On January 20 2013 05:16 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:01 0dem wrote:I am really glad for Socke! He deserves this! It was a great SC2-day with an amazing crowd! Looking forward to the finals tomorrow! On January 20 2013 04:57 Ippo wrote:Socke on Twitter xD
Giacomo Thüs @SockeSC2
big thanks also to @EGStephanoRC already for deciding to not show up. thxformoney? #IEM
This is gold :D Best twitter post made today still by MorroW: Show nested quote +Stefan Andersson @apeXMorroW
@SockeSC2 body of santa, face of jesus. how much more can you ask for?
Haha! Well, For Santa´s body, he needs to add some pounds though
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qxc is so good at this role!
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May there will come the day that 15 year old boys stop typing "zerg op zerg op zerg op"....
PvZ is at least balanced. fact.
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Wait, so IEM will play other part of Ro8 and Ro4 at the same day?
That's just wierd.
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Watching the rebroadcast, love seeing Polish fans cheering for Daisy too. What a great crowd
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lol what? any korean in warm up mode kicks the best foreigner's a§§ to the moon. nothing special happened. hahaha
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On January 20 2013 08:41 ypslala wrote:
lol what? any korean in warm up mode kicks the best foreigner's a§§ to the moon. nothing special happened. hahaha
hahahahahahahahah watch Socke vs Yoda.
Yoda is the best Korean at this tournament (or maybe Parting) and Socke kicks his ass. Like ez pz. No Problemo at all. Just kill that nooby noob noob. European Power. Stronghold of Esports
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strange things happen sometimes ^^
i like socke. im german
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On January 20 2013 08:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 08:41 ypslala wrote:
lol what? any korean in warm up mode kicks the best foreigner's a§§ to the moon. nothing special happened. hahaha hahahahahahahahah watch Socke vs Yoda. Yoda is the best Korean at this tournament (or maybe Parting) and Socke kicks his ass. Like ez pz. No Problemo at all. Just kill that nooby noob noob. European Power. Stronghold of Esports
I think Parting is the best Korean, haha.
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On January 20 2013 06:22 Extenz wrote:thank you!!! don't care about spoilers i need to study builds : D
OMG Yoda replays time to fap fap fap :p
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On January 20 2013 07:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:14 Larkin wrote:
Wow, may well be an all Protoss top 4. Sucks I missed Socke vs Kas, I love to see those guys doing well. Two of my favourite EU players.
Come on Dream and Yoda! Keep Terran alive! Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff. Zerg is dead. might as well give Protoss another top4. You know. The race that has won as much as Zerg inthe last months, but somehow has gotten away without massive whine against. PS: I'm drunk. Infestors imba. Or something. Don't care. Come on EU and play me in Custom. And win ez pz. This is not banable, because I'm a nice person
hahahah yes infestors are imba, drunk people never lies
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On January 20 2013 06:55 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:29 Salazarz wrote:On January 20 2013 06:23 iamahydralisk wrote:On January 20 2013 05:05 Fourn wrote:On January 20 2013 04:35 iamahydralisk wrote:On January 20 2013 04:30 totauksz wrote:Kas is a much much much better player than Socke, sad that he didn't won Posts like this always rustle my jimmies. We just saw them play a bo5 head to head series. Socke won. And Socke was first in his group. How exactly is Kas a "much much much better player?" It's comments like this that lower eSports credibility as a "real" sport because in sports like soccer, baseball, basketball, American football, etc... You never hear "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y." Instead, you hear "team y was the better team and team x got beat." No excuses. That's just not true at all. I don't agree Kas is a better player (I'd say they are about equal), but a team/player that is very good can lose to a team/player that is worse than they are and still be considered better. For example, it's not abnormal for the one of the best teams in basketball, say the Miami Heat, to lose to one of the worst teams, like the Washington Wizards. If the Wizards beat Miami, everyone would still think Miami was the better team, they just had a bad game. So, you're wrong, you do hear things like "team x is still much better even though they just lost to team y" in other sports. It's called an 'upset'. I'm not wrong because you'll never hear sportscasters saying things like "oh yeah team x is so much better even though they lost, team y didn't deserve it, etc etc." Especially in tournament settings. For example, NFL playoffs. It's incredibly uncommon to hear "team x is still better" after team y has ended team x's season. It's the same for every major sport that has a playoff system (and seeing as how SC2 doesn't have one de-facto "ultimate tournament," we can pretty easily equate every major lan tournament to playoffs in any major sport). The only major sport I know of (American or otherwise) where you'll hear crap like "team x is still better, games don't matter" even after team x got beat on the field by team y is American college football, and you know what? The ranking and postseason system of American college football are the laughing stock of every other major sport. the overall bottom line is, when two teams/players duke it out on the field, especially in a tournament setting, it's really ignorant and quite frankly disrespectful to claim that the games we just watched with our own eyes don't matter and the losing player is still better. Upsets do happen, yes, but you're never going to hear "team x is still much better" (which implies that the head to head doesn't even matter), even after an upset. At best, you'll hear something to the effect of "team x may have better results, but team y was better today." That's an entirely different statement and that's what you'll hear from major sports. None of this excuse making that invalidates the winning player's accomplishment. Eh, people say X is still better than Y after X loses a game or gets knocked out of a tournament in pretty much every sport, from chess to football. Even professional sports casters and analysts say things like that quite often, nevermind the fans. There's nothing wrong with saying things like that, either. A worse player or team can beat one that is stronger overall, it happens all the time, saying that X is still better doesn't diminish the victory somehow or whatever. it depends entirely on the situation. in the regular season in sports, it's definitely an upset if the worst team in the league stats wise beats the best team. however, that doesn't really apply here. Starcraft doesn't really have a "regular season." It's all big tournaments which are basically playoffs. To give an example of how it's different, take a look at this. I don't know how much you follow American football so it might have less of an impact on you, but here goes anyway. Tomorrow, the semifinals of the NFL playoffs are happening. Let's take one of the games, San Francisco vs Atlanta, as an example. Even though the teams had different records during the regular season (let's say San Fran had a worse regular season, for example's sake), do you really think the sportscasters are going to lead off with "Even though San Fran won, Atlanta was and still is a better team" on Monday if San Fran wins? No, they won't, because in a tournament environment, people just don't say that. Same with the Super Bowl itself. After it's over, how many analysts are going to be saying "the losing team is still better." Probably none. The overall point I'm trying to make is, when you have two adversaries with similar past achievements, I don't see how you can logically say player x (Kas) is still significantly better when we just saw the two players go head to head and player y (Socke) won. It'd be different if you had a no-name going up against an accomplished player (Parting losing to an unknown foreigner, for example), but this is a situation where we have two relatively equal players (as far as accomplishments goes) playing each other, and it definitely diminishes the victory for the winning player when you have people saying they're still worse even though they just proved how good they were in an area far more important than stats or accomplishments, that being the head to head arena. And yes, I'm aware that in past games, Kas may have had the upper hand, but that was then and this is now. I just don't see why it's so hard to say that Socke was the better player today, and is probably the better player overall because they have similar skill levels and Socke won the head to head today.
The last line is pretty much what everyone has been telling you: Today, Socke was the better player today. But that doesn't mean anything about who is better. You see this all of the time in every sport. With the football playoffs right now, that provides the best examples. Green bay just lost to the 49ers. Most people would say green bay is the better team. That day that they played, the 49ers played better, but a single game has very little to do with which team was better. You have to look at all of their games over the previous few months. Not just games against each other, maybe one person has a stylistic advantage, like Polt v MVP. Polt, for the longest time, has had MVP's number. But no one in their right mind would say that means Polt is a better player than MVP. It's complicated to say between two players who is better, which is why people always have differing opinions.
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EPT
