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Hey guys,
I've been trying to learn some steady builds vs P with T. Had some questinos i was hoping someone could help me with for the gasless FE and 2gate FE; my two most common builds vs P (are these good ideas for go to builds?)... if I see Toss do a 16 nexus I often do a 10 minute stim/concussion timing attack with 3rax also btw.
#1 Gasless FE
Most recently, i've had some good success with the gasless 1rax FE, but been noticing when I can't prevent their probe from coming in, I get scouted without gas and either get 4gates or heavy stalker poking... respectively either killing me or preventing me from transfering my expo-- delaying and confusing things... usually putting me behind. I suppose the secret to this is getting those bunkers up relatively quickly.... ya? Can 3 bunkers with pure marines easily hold off a 4gate? As in.... can you get 3 bunkers up filled with marines by 6 min, while following the build? If u do, is it absoplutely essential u have full repairing on the bunkers to win or is it a pretty safe defense?
Secondly, the last game I played I did this build and felt like I was ahead economically and got a good army, but I waited a little long to attack (like 14 min) and he had 3 bases and lots of sentries & chargelots and kidna just mowed me down. Attempted a failed drop attack prior to that which set me back too... also attacked late because he was harassing me with warp prisms. Anyway, I was wondering--- is there a good timing attack when using the gasless FE build? I feel like FEing temporarilysets myh army back a tad compared with 1 base, so I know I need to use my extra resources to catch up to their army in case I did more econ & they did more army INITIALLY, ya? Also, when I build factories and starports, I feel like I need at least a few medivacs to make that investment pay off otherwise my army will suffer the first engagement (if I invest lots of money in factory/starport but attack before it's produces fruit). That makes me delay the attack but it seems too late sometimes. Any suggestions? With bio, am I kinda jus always supposed to be roaming around with my finger on STIM to escape if things get too hot and heavy?
#2 2rax FE
I don't really have a solid build I use when doing this--- I kinda just build 2 rax, an EXPO, 2 bunkers, a tech lab and a reactor-- upgrades. Drop 2 more rax shortly after, enginnering bay w/ 1/0 upgrade, factory/starport soon after, followed by more rax than ghost (usually). Get my second gas around 20 food or so, and the other two gas on my expo when I start building the starport.
Is that a common way to do that build? Otherwise, does anyone know a better build for 2rax expo or a link describing the build? Is a 1rax expo WITH gas a safer alternative to gasless FE & better than 2rax?
Also, any good timing info I should know? I know with 1 base I like to attack at 10 min but I like I said above, I have trouble determining when I FE, when my expos extra mineral/gas, and the advantages it has given me, have put me ahead of an opponent who expanded later or is still one basing it.
My experience, however, is that ppl on 2 bases rapidly get the advantage over their opponent... like within a couple minutes it seems. If I see somoene expanding and attack too late, they already surpassed me it seems.
Thanks guys!
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My TvP 2rax looks like this:
10 supply
12 rax
13 refinery
15 OC
16 marine
16 rax #2
reactor on rax #1 when marine completes
18 supply (needs to come w/in 4 seconds after you start SCV #18 to avoid a supply block)
22 supply (after SCV #20 and 2 marines from the reactor-rax)
rax #2 gets a tech lab, which researches concussive
Then you can either push out with 5 marines and 1 marauder or 7 marines and 2 marauders. I typically move my TL-rax over to marine production to squeeze out my CC faster, then add stim and back to marauders.
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Gasless FE is fairly safe most of the time, but making a small mistake can cost you a game. Get your 1st bunker ASAP, righter after your CC. Yeah, you could delay it and throw down additional rax right away, but don't. I can't tell you how many games I've lost because the poking stalker killed the scv 10 seconds before bunker finished, my 3 marines, and everything snowballs from there.
Get at least 3 rax total, then 2x gas. I scout his natural at 6 min. If he hasn't expanded, throw down more bunkers and an engi bay, maybe scan his main to see if you can spot his tech. Put 6-8 scvs on a hotkey w/ auto repair on, and stick a marine in front of your natural to give you warning when he attacks.
That should keep you safe against most direct attacks. But blink stalker, whacky dt stuff, and warp prism's will just bypass your front and go straight into your main. Then you actually have to micro.
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The First Tipp i can give you. With a gasless FE it is very hard to hold your natrual and your main.Most players will absue this and use blink stalker or warprisons to split your force. If you don´t scout some sort of expantion from your oponent then don´t take your natrual and tech faster to medivacs. With the Medivacs you hold the protoss in his base while you are taking the 3rd or the natrual if not happend yet.
I usually put one Bunker at my main with Marines to negate evry Warp Prism Herras. You can repair the Bunker, if needed and safe you time to reinforce.
You have two options to attack at 10 Minutes. You can build like 5 raxes instead the Starport tech and attack with stim + combatshield or you can do Drop Herass to secure your 3rd and adding more raxes. The Drop Herrass is essential if you teching to medivac and you can´t do a frontal attack with it. If you spot Coloss Tech build Vikings up to 6 and +2 for each colossus you scout. And when you have taken your 3rd add ghost.
From here you want to have at least 5 raxes, 3 with reactor 2 with techlab, 1 Starport with Reactor and Double Upgrade running. Just experiment with the order when to add those things or watch pro replays.
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Gasless FE is perfectly safe against 4 Gate. In fact more safe then some other builds. Some pieces of advice on holding off early pressure:
1) Get the first bunker up not long after the expo goes down to protect the marines from zealot pressure
2) 3 bunkers can hold off a four gate no problem. Transfer some SCV's early, and have 6-8 on a hotkey set to auto repair, pull them up to bunkers as soon as pressure shows up
Also this is a modification of the Gasless expand I saw Huk do at Valencia, that I have stolen for ladder. Basically gets stim faster, and has it done in time to help against 4 gates. Instead of going gasless 1 rax, expo, up to 3 rax, then 2 gas; go: 1 rax, expand, 2nd rax, then 2 gas, then 3rd rax. Reactor on the 2nd rax as soon as it finishes, then tech labs on the two others as soon as you have the gas. start stim as soon as first tech lab finishes.
you go
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On October 22 2011 00:13 KingOfAmerica wrote:
Gasless FE is perfectly safe against 4 Gate. In fact more safe then some other builds. Some pieces of advice on holding off early pressure:
1) Get the first bunker up not long after the expo goes down to protect the marines from zealot pressure
2) 3 bunkers can hold off a four gate no problem. Transfer some SCV's early, and have 6-8 on a hotkey set to auto repair, pull them up to bunkers as soon as pressure shows up
Also this is a modification of the Gasless expand I saw Huk do at Valencia, that I have stolen for ladder. Basically gets stim faster, and has it done in time to help against 4 gates. Instead of going gasless 1 rax, expo, up to 3 rax, then 2 gas; go: 1 rax, expand, 2nd rax, then 2 gas, then 3rd rax. Reactor on the 2nd rax as soon as it finishes, then tech labs on the two others as soon as you have the gas. start stim as soon as first tech lab finishes.
you go
do you have that replay?
sounds quite interesting
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On October 22 2011 00:13 KingOfAmerica wrote:
Gasless FE is perfectly safe against 4 Gate. In fact more safe then some other builds. Some pieces of advice on holding off early pressure:
1) Get the first bunker up not long after the expo goes down to protect the marines from zealot pressure
2) 3 bunkers can hold off a four gate no problem. Transfer some SCV's early, and have 6-8 on a hotkey set to auto repair, pull them up to bunkers as soon as pressure shows up
Also this is a modification of the Gasless expand I saw Huk do at Valencia, that I have stolen for ladder. Basically gets stim faster, and has it done in time to help against 4 gates. Instead of going gasless 1 rax, expo, up to 3 rax, then 2 gas; go: 1 rax, expand, 2nd rax, then 2 gas, then 3rd rax. Reactor on the 2nd rax as soon as it finishes, then tech labs on the two others as soon as you have the gas. start stim as soon as first tech lab finishes.
you go
there is no way that gets still in time for a 4 gate
but you dont need stim to hold a 4 gate, besides the fact that almost no protoss does it ever in PvT a bunker or two can hold it just fine, along with some micro
there is a reson protosses dont do 4 gate anymore
also, I doubt you saw huk make any raxes
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Trust in the power of gasless FE (1 rax FE)
Even if they see it (which you should do everything to prevent), you can still prepare accordingly to any 1 base shenanigans they will try. (repost from another thread I wrote in)
A few tips that might help with a variety of different toss openings:
1) Do initial scout and click on his gas, make sure he didn't gas first (if 2350 or less remains), he may be doing a 1 base void, blink, immortal or dt play.
2) Later after you FE, don't blow a scan until you have to. Rather send a scv on move command around the fringes of the map and send it into his natural. If there is no natural by 6 minutes, send scv to main. If it dies, scan his main so you know what to prepare for. Look below for these preparations.
3) The real goal of 1 rax FE is to make it look like something it's not. Basically deny the Toss the ability to see your base, your gas, anything so that they will delay their FE and be forced into 4 wg or some cheesey, skillless 1 base BO. This is all done with that first marine (or in blocking the bottom of your ramp) or both.
4) It's popular among pros to currently drop 4 rax instead of 3 after 1 rax FE. Personally, I like this more and it's just a handy tool lately since soooo many Toss are 1 basing (mmr=high master/gm for me), and it's nice to have the extra production during 1 base timings.
5) If Toss do FE, 1 gate FE, actually drop a ninja third somewhere on the map. Make it an OC and drop all your mules there. I'm actually much less scared of a Toss on 2 base than I am against 1 base Toss, which seems disproportionately harder than it should be. So try to outmacro Toss whenever possible and dictate how they play.
1 Base Pushs:
+ Show Spoiler +a) If void ray, immediately scout perimeter of base for pylon. Put a bunker on high ground, drop an Ebay. Put 2-3 bunkers at front of base. Send 3-4 scvs to auto repair at both locations. Place turret adjacent to both sets of bunkers.
+ Show Spoiler +b) if blink stalker, immediately patrol perimeter of base and keep eyes pealed for observer. Scan immediately if it comes into view so he has no vision of high ground to blink into. Stop mining gas and just try to get stim if you can. Drop 2-3 more rax. Drop 2-3 bunkers at front and another 2 on high ground where he might blink into. If he does blink in to main, send all scvs from main and marines at stalkers. Keep doing this until you have tons of marines and appropriate bunkers.
+ Show Spoiler +c) if dt, drop an ebay and put a turret behind your bunker. also, with the possibility of warp prism DT, drop one in your main if you see the dark shrine. Its better to be safe than sorry if you have good information
+ Show Spoiler +d) if 1 base immortal push, drop 5+ bunkers (no, I'm not kidding, sadly). try to keep them in a straight line next to one another. Send 8 scvs to auto repair, some on both sides of bunker because he will have sentries. stim is imperative, so make sure that is being researched. When he attacks, send all scvs from natural to repair/attack, stim in all of your bunkers and your main army. Also, make sure your marines are on hold position so that they will not be provoked into the open and killed from stalkers harassing your bunker line.
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On October 22 2011 01:32 zmansman17 wrote:Trust in the power of gasless FE (1 rax FE) Even if they see it (which you should do everything to prevent), you can still prepare accordingly to any 1 base shenanigans they will try. (repost from another thread I wrote in)
A few tips that might help with a variety of different toss openings:1) Do initial scout and click on his gas, make sure he didn't gas first (if 2350 or less remains), he may be doing a 1 base void, blink, immortal or dt play. 2) Later after you FE, don't blow a scan until you have to. Rather send a scv on move command around the fringes of the map and send it into his natural. If there is no natural by 6 minutes, send scv to main. If it dies, scan his main so you know what to prepare for. Look below for these preparations. 3) The real goal of 1 rax FE is to make it look like something it's not. Basically deny the Toss the ability to see your base, your gas, anything so that they will delay their FE and be forced into 4 wg or some cheesey, skillless 1 base BO. This is all done with that first marine (or in blocking the bottom of your ramp) or both. 4) It's popular among pros to currently drop 4 rax instead of 3 after 1 rax FE. Personally, I like this more and it's just a handy tool lately since soooo many Toss are 1 basing (mmr=high master/gm for me), and it's nice to have the extra production during 1 base timings. 5) If Toss do FE, 1 gate FE, actually drop a ninja third somewhere on the map. Make it an OC and drop all your mules there. I'm actually much less scared of a Toss on 2 base than I am against 1 base Toss, which seems disproportionately harder than it should be. So try to outmacro Toss whenever possible and dictate how they play. 1 Base Pushs:+ Show Spoiler +a) If void ray, immediately scout perimeter of base for pylon. Put a bunker on high ground, drop an Ebay. Put 2-3 bunkers at front of base. Send 3-4 scvs to auto repair at both locations. Place turret adjacent to both sets of bunkers. b) if blink stalker, immediately patrol perimeter of base and keep eyes pealed for observer. Scan immediately if it comes into view so he has no vision of high ground to blink into. Stop mining gas and just try to get stim if you can. Drop 2-3 more rax. Drop 2-3 bunkers at front and another 2 on high ground where he might blink into. If he does blink in to main, send all scvs from main and marines at stalkers. Keep doing this until you have tons of marines and appropriate bunkers. c) if dt, drop an ebay and put a turret behind your bunker. also, with the possibility of warp prism DT, drop one in your main if you see the dark shrine. Its better to be safe than sorry if you have good information
d) if 1 base immortal push, drop 5+ bunkers (no, I'm not kidding, sadly). try to keep them in a straight line next to one another. Send 8 scvs to auto repair, some on both sides of bunker because he will have sentries. stim is imperative, so make sure that is being researched. When he attacks, send all scvs from natural to repair/attack, stim in all of your bunkers and your main army. Also, make sure your marines are on hold position so that they will not be provoked into the open and killed from stalkers harassing your bunker line.
This is really excellent advice. I would just like to add that you can never have enough marines against a 1base protoss. Dts are the easiest, it dosent really matter what you have. Void and immortal all-ins are the scariest and mass marines do well against both of these. My point is, everyone goes up to at least 3rax after CC so put reactors on 2 of them. This has really helped for me. You won't be getting those tech lab upgrades done in time for the 1base timings anyway. You can add a 4th rax with tech lab shortly.
I would hesitate to take a ninja 3rd, I think that ninja 3rds are a type of economic cheese, it can really screw you over if your opponent goes for some sort of warp prism play and stumbles upon it. I would suggest instead that you can take a quick 9-10minute 3rd against a protoss FE or even a in base extra OC. Be careful to maintain enough vikings as the 2base collosus timing can hurt if this is what they go for and you get suprised.
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Calgary25993 Posts
Good thread. I just modified your title to include [Q], as per the strategy forum guidelines.
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Here are the timings I've discovered:
1st stalker pops out 4:20, hits my base around 4:55, so I make sure I hide my scv around the toss's third to start sneaking in around 4:35 to get a scout.
If he's 4-gating, he's going to put down the 3 extra gates around 4:30 I believe. Further, he'll only have 2 pylons, so if you can locate his two pylons, you'll know where to scan and search for the gate count.
DT rush pops 7:00. Void ray rush pops around 6:30 I believe.
6 gate can hit as early as 7:00 I believe, but I haven't experienced this on ladder yet, only 7:30-8:00 so far. In my experience, 6 gate is the hardest all-in for me to hold off with 1 rax gasless CC. I've found 3+ bunkers is actually counter productive because (1) you need to scout the 6 gate, and (2) you lack the infrastructure to produce enough units to deal with the second warp-in of units because you put down 3+ bunkers instead of making units. In essence, you are sacrificing dps for more hp on your smaller army, which is actually really bad.
I've found the way to deal with 6 gate is to put down 1 bunker and surrounded it with depots. At least half his dps of his 6 gate is coming from zealots, so if you can (1) prevent his zealots from killing your army and (2) kill off the guardian shield sentry, you will for sure. He will most likely be able to break your bunker, so be prepared to pull some scvs to rebuild to fill in the wall to prepare for the next warp-in. If you defend, you should be ahead on upgrades, tech, etc. everything.
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On October 22 2011 01:32 zmansman17 wrote:Trust in the power of gasless FE (1 rax FE) Even if they see it (which you should do everything to prevent), you can still prepare accordingly to any 1 base shenanigans they will try. (repost from another thread I wrote in)
A few tips that might help with a variety of different toss openings:1) Do initial scout and click on his gas, make sure he didn't gas first (if 2350 or less remains), he may be doing a 1 base void, blink, immortal or dt play. 2) Later after you FE, don't blow a scan until you have to. Rather send a scv on move command around the fringes of the map and send it into his natural. If there is no natural by 6 minutes, send scv to main. If it dies, scan his main so you know what to prepare for. Look below for these preparations. 3) The real goal of 1 rax FE is to make it look like something it's not. Basically deny the Toss the ability to see your base, your gas, anything so that they will delay their FE and be forced into 4 wg or some cheesey, skillless 1 base BO. This is all done with that first marine (or in blocking the bottom of your ramp) or both. 4) It's popular among pros to currently drop 4 rax instead of 3 after 1 rax FE. Personally, I like this more and it's just a handy tool lately since soooo many Toss are 1 basing (mmr=high master/gm for me), and it's nice to have the extra production during 1 base timings. 5) If Toss do FE, 1 gate FE, actually drop a ninja third somewhere on the map. Make it an OC and drop all your mules there. I'm actually much less scared of a Toss on 2 base than I am against 1 base Toss, which seems disproportionately harder than it should be. So try to outmacro Toss whenever possible and dictate how they play. 1 Base Pushs:+ Show Spoiler +a) If void ray, immediately scout perimeter of base for pylon. Put a bunker on high ground, drop an Ebay. Put 2-3 bunkers at front of base. Send 3-4 scvs to auto repair at both locations. Place turret adjacent to both sets of bunkers. b) if blink stalker, immediately patrol perimeter of base and keep eyes pealed for observer. Scan immediately if it comes into view so he has no vision of high ground to blink into. Stop mining gas and just try to get stim if you can. Drop 2-3 more rax. Drop 2-3 bunkers at front and another 2 on high ground where he might blink into. If he does blink in to main, send all scvs from main and marines at stalkers. Keep doing this until you have tons of marines and appropriate bunkers. c) if dt, drop an ebay and put a turret behind your bunker. also, with the possibility of warp prism DT, drop one in your main if you see the dark shrine. Its better to be safe than sorry if you have good information
d) if 1 base immortal push, drop 5+ bunkers (no, I'm not kidding, sadly). try to keep them in a straight line next to one another. Send 8 scvs to auto repair, some on both sides of bunker because he will have sentries. stim is imperative, so make sure that is being researched. When he attacks, send all scvs from natural to repair/attack, stim in all of your bunkers and your main army. Also, make sure your marines are on hold position so that they will not be provoked into the open and killed from stalkers harassing your bunker line.
Do you have replays and build order timings for this? I'm really stumped on TvP and I'm trying to find a good build. Also, my micro isn't that good, so it's really unfair that tosses can just "macro" out units for a really strong push early game. As if the late game against death ball isn't hard enough ... ><
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I've been using a modified 2 rax lately where I get a second rax at 15 and delay orbital to 18. Economically it's actually the same as a 15 OC, and only slightly behind a 16 OC. (between 5-40 minerals at any given time).
This enables you to get a marauder and conc out much faster, and push with 5 marines 1 marauder at 4:47 vs 5:00. Conc is also ready at 5:12 instead of 5:30.
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Most toss nowadays I play at the mid masters level like to one gate fe, I use the 2 rax variation build with reactor then tech lab and push out at 2 marauders and 9 marines, rally barracks to natural and expand while pushing at around 50 supply. Most of the time it does significant damage because they have to pull probes to defend, sometimes it kills them outright if they are caught out of position and lose their initial stalker+zealot to con shell.
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EPT
