DISCLAIMER: This is an all-in of sorts but it's basically a punishment strategy for 2rax play and fast tech, may also work against 1rax expand.
Recently, I've had troubles playing Terran straight up since I have to work on macroing properly from 3 and 4 bases so I was developing a strategy which allows one-basing and rather micro and most importantly, punishing a Terran for 2 Rax and Fast Tech builds on maps where their wall consists of a depot.
I've been looking for a proper Baneling Bust in the strategy section here but couldn't find any specific builds, and the builds that can be found are too easy scoutable so the Terran can prepare.
The goal of this strategy is to feint the speedling expand, making the Terran feel safe and even maybe trying to bunker you up, just to bust him with 6 banelings and 16 speedlings at the 6:00 mark, just before he gets a banshee out if he does that or enough marines to deal with it.
The key is also to kill his scout so he only sees that you're doing the speedling expand and therefore feels safe.
Build Order (Regular Speedling Expand Build)
14 gas 14 pool 16 overlord 17 queen from now on, only get zerglings start speed as soon as you have 100/100, get drones off gas until you have 200 and put them back on, make expansion at natural
when the terran scouts you the second time or kept his scv alive in your base he will see that you did gas before pool, got a queen out in normal time and 2-4 lings to kill the scout. after you've killed the scout get the baneling nest, pump lings to the front of his base, once you get the baneling nest up you start morphing banelings in front of his base out of his sight obviously,
if you did everything right you'll have 6 banes and 16ish speedlings at 6:00 and bust him open with the banes, run in with speedlings, gg most of the time.
Basically this is just a regular baneling bust, but what makes it work for me is that I feint a speedling expand to make him feel safe. He therefore won't invest in a bunker or get extra buildings up to fortify his wall.
Here are two replays showcasing the build.
It just annoyed me that Terran can feel so safe and just do his Tech or FE builds without any punishment due to 2rax, and this helped me a lot. It probably doesn't work too well in high level play, but worked fine for me in high diamond.
one base bane busts are very hit and miss but you might be interested in trying a newish bane bust style (well at least it was new for me when i saw st_july in gsl's jan), which involves feigning an expansion but cancelling at a point at which enough creep is left over to make a baneling nest in its place. to the usual scouting scv it appears just like a normal expansion, obviously clicking on it would reveal otherwise but i don't think many would think to do that. it also means a scan of the main will reveal no baneling nest, which is one of the things you are heavily banking on the terran not doing if you are going for this one base all in. obviously this would mean making some changes to your bo but i certainly think it is preferrable to the standard one base bust which is easily scouted either by a scan, and ofc a scouting scv seeing no expansion will make them prepare for this possibility as well.
I watched the first game. I would try to take the watch towers earlier, you really don't want that second scout getting in your base and your lings were just a little late to the party. Luckily he didn't actualy scout your base. As a terran player if I saw what you were doing there I would think baneling bust or a roach rush. At higher levels of play the speedling expand isn't really used so if I saw gas first speed quickly on lings I would be worried about an attack. Also if your opponent double bunkered at the bottom of the ramp you would be in trouble anyway because you would have to waste banelings getting through the wall, just make sure your ready to stop them doing that.
A well executed baneling bust but I don't think it differs from the standard build, I wouldn't be thinking a speeling expand probably. Also really funny that you got helltalon to rage.
Maybe it's a better faint if you actually really expand but are just making zerglings instead of drones - probably delays the attack a bit (actually I really expand in the 2nd game but he doesn't scout it)
so you could even do the expand and just use the hatch as extra larva. As said takes a bit of steam off the timing of the attack but might be compensatable by pulling drones off gas once you have 150 (6 banes)
The thing is we get that extra barracks because we have the income with 2 CCs in base, and just ploppin down gas. We got the money to 4 rax and still tech off 1 base if you stay sling bling. All I gotta do is get 2-3 tanks out, and drop the expo with simcity + bunkers and I'm in a good spot.
Even if I 2 rax, 2 gas, 2 fac for marine/blueflame I still make a third rax JUST to prevent banebusts.
I think the idea is good, but my question to you is....
For the terran players that I practice against, none of them would 2-rax you if you didn't take a hatch and you went for earlier than 14pool.
In addition, when they see you aren't expanding, their ramps will look something like this:
So.... what's your solution at this point?
Given the information you've provided, it seems that this would be easy to scout and defend.
Further, can you please dissociate your proposed new strategy from the very standard baneling bust timing (that is vs SD/SD/Barracks wall)?
Thanks.
edit: watching reps now
Your second rep does not seem to be an example of what you refer to, as this guy opens 1/1/1 and so you're just performing a very standard baneling bust.
However, in your first rep, it seems this only works because the T decides to try to bunker you (an extremely poor decision given he doesn't know what you're doing) when he knows you're on 1-base. He then proceeds to see all the lings and not build a bunker or additional defense. Instead, he continues to tech.
I think the idea in concept is good, but it could use some work.
I personally would like a way to effectively baneling bust a 2-raxing terran opener. But I think if he properly responded to the information you gave him, he would have been fully prepared for it.
I don't think it's really possible to bling bust a terran who opens 2-rax, as he can simply put a bunker behind his SD as shown above. In the first replay, your terran opponent walled a bit poorly by placing an SD in the middle instead of the left side, which would allow a bunker to basically seal a second wall.
Yea i can tell you that as a terran when i scout no expansion and like 20 lings i make a bunker. I connect this bunker to a supply depot and a cliff. I then i make a factory or a CC next to the second supply depot walling this off further. While defending your allin I tech to banshees and pot shot your little horde of bugs to shreads take my natural and prepare for a timing push. Once the desireded upgrades are almost finish i make turrets in my base or depots around my base depending on what i scout, and then push to your base. If you take a fast 3rd with banelings as you defense i destroy your natural then your 3rd. If you tech to mutas i can seige up near your natural and crawl my tanks to victory, while defending at home with turrets and reinforcements. Against roaches i like to take a fast 3rd and get 6 gases so i can support 2fact tanks and armory upgrades. Banshees are my favored air support vs roaches but a raven transition can stop a muta switch with pdd and seeker missle. Raven also works well vs hydras. I believe that off one base you wont be able to reinforce enough to take down a sufficent wall, you should just stick to the standard eco bust kyrix style with a 14hatch opening its much stronger and can afford you enough banelings to devour even layered walls gl hf
1) Feint is spelled like so. 2) Where are you going to hide the Baneling Nest? A scan is roughly the same are as you initial creep spread, and banelings are the typical followup to a wall/bio (early game).
My Liquipedia build on it. Used this since beta, slightly refined the build. You can feint it better by sending a drone out to "fast expand" then killing the worker. Also, take drones off gas after speed and put them back on after the worker is dead also. This build hits way earlier as well. (around 5 min)
On February 08 2011 09:20 athief wrote: 1) Feint is spelled like so. 2) Where are you going to hide the Baneling Nest? A scan is roughly the same are as you initial creep spread, and banelings are the typical followup to a wall/bio (early game).
I dont think anyone who plans to do a bunker contain or 2rax push is going to waste a scan before doing it.
Any situation that warrants a scan of the opponent's base at that time means you shouldn't be doing the aggression in the first place.
In that first replay, OP could hade made a warren after the pool and still beaten this terran.
I've been playing around a little bit with the build specifically tailored to the feint and would have a hatch up by the natural playing the speedling expand build and attack with 6 banes and 16 lings by 6:00
So the difference with this build is to actually let the Terran scout the expansion, and at my level the Terrans will happily sit back after doing so and teching or expanding themselves or whatever, but I just go for the bust.
Will change the OP accordingly and thanks for the feedback.
Michael, hope that solves your questions, a Terran who sees speedling expand wouldn't get a bunker or am I wrong?
On February 08 2011 09:07 Xax wrote: Maybe it's a better faint if you actually really expand but are just making zerglings instead of drones - probably delays the attack a bit (actually I really expand in the 2nd game but he doesn't scout it)
so you could even do the expand and just use the hatch as extra larva. As said takes a bit of steam off the timing of the attack but might be compensatable by pulling drones off gas once you have 150 (6 banes)
care to read my post? it is always a nice courtesy to those who have taken the time to respond to your thread. and to actually take an expansion which hasn't had time to pay for itself prior to going for the same all-in seems a little counter-productive don't you think?
now I am proposing an actual speedling expand build until 20 food where everything points towards a regular build, and have to prevent a second scout from happening AFTER you've thrown down your hatch at 20 food.
regarding the scan, as soon as they see that expansion going down they wouldn't scan my main at this point.
thanks for the nice idea with the creep and the baneling nest but I wouldn't count on the terran not clicking on it, the chance of him not scanning your main after seeing a legit hatch at the natural seems higher than him not clicking it.
so this this basically is an 1 base-all-in disguised as a regular speedling expand.
yes, it's not economical to take an expansion and not use it, but as said before, it's just a supporter of the mind game.
thanks for your reply, it really helped me further developing the build (which as said wouldn't work in high level environments anyways)
I'm not convinced. In a 2 rax play, the only thing I care about scouting-wise early on is when your 2nd hatch goes down. I will determine this with my first SCV and bunker if there isn't one.
So with 6 banelings, you will encounter a depot 2 rax, bunker, and a fact or CC. I will then kill you with a 2 port. Whether or not you go roaches or blings off 1 base, the response is exactly the same so you don't even really have to guess how to respond. Just throw down a bunker and reinforce the depot.
I would be amused by the exact opposite of this. Make Terran think you are going to bust and then ninja expo behind a bunch of speedlings.
well whatever works for you. but just bare in mind that a strategy which obviously works at the very highest level would most likely work at your level too, and that any all-in you decide to do will be weaker for not having recouped the 300 minerals and drone spent on a natural you don't need.
On February 08 2011 10:08 rmAmnesiac wrote: well whatever works for you. but just bare in mind that a strategy which obviously works at the very highest level would most likely work at your level too, and that any all-in you decide to do will be weaker for not having recouped the 300 minerals and drone spent on a natural you don't need.
This isn't directed towards you or anything but its a common misconception that annoys me. Just because something works at high level does not mean it will work at low level. People are at lower levels don't really know strengths and weaknesses of play. People are more likely to just barrel on with a strategy they know regardless. This coupled with poorer mechanics leads to even more randomness.
So things that shouldn't work will work at lower levels and things that should work at high level won't always work at low level. For example, there is no way in hell I am going to 1 Gate Robo like White_Ra if I'm playing Toss for fun. That build has a lot of finesse and requires a lot of knowledge and experience that lower level players don't understand. So the strategies that work at low levels are strategies tend to be more simple and reliable. They either include more units or rely on units that are hard to deal with like 4 gate or X Port Banshee where X is less than 6.
At low levels, most of the problems you are going to have are mechanics related. So just select the most standard strategy that you can find and execute that every game until you get your mechanics down. Remember that until you hit the absolute top, the player that wins doesn't necessarily employ a crazy strategy or is smarter, he's just better at the game. To think otherwise is a little conceited.[/rant]
nice rant. and in fairness you have a valid point however it always helps to read the actual strategy and post in question, and if you had you would see that this point is entirely irrelevant in this case.
Pretty sure fruit dealer does this. His timing is right before the bunkers finish and he runs his speedlings and surrounds everything and has banelings for whatever else ofc
On February 08 2011 18:42 rmAmnesiac wrote: nice rant. and in fairness you have a valid point however it always helps to read the actual strategy and post in question, and if you had you would see that this point is entirely irrelevant in this case.
Just a response to you, already responded to OP :-D
On February 08 2011 09:20 athief wrote: 1) Feint is spelled like so. 2) Where are you going to hide the Baneling Nest? A scan is roughly the same are as you initial creep spread, and banelings are the typical followup to a wall/bio (early game).
You cancel the hatch and put a baneling nest on the leftover creep. @anyone saying this is easily countered, the point is to make the terran think you expanded and making him feel safe.
this is a trickey strat, i doupt it will work vs mid masters though, i find they all do some kinda of poke that can lead into early agression even off a 1.1.1 build
Actually that's what Julyzerg did to kill MVP at their second match in GSL 5
It actually wasn't, because this build doesn't take an expansion, while July got his natural up.
The reason this worked so well was because this was a Baneling bust that happened before the second base really gave any benefit at all. Usually the timing window for the 2 Base economic Baneling bust is much much later, after the Zerg has droned enough to saturate two bases, and then can focus on massing units.
MVP expected at least another few minutes of zero aggression but July played trickily and caught at the absolute weakest moment possible. Well played by him.
It wasn't a fake speedling expand though =[ Sorry!
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187428.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187430.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/FKKbK.jpg)
