EPTI love going a 7pool on toss for the reason of map control. It's great. And sometimes they just dont wall off and you can snipe the pylon that powers the gateways and it's a free win. Not allin in my books as I have a next step to expo and drone like crazy as toss is stuck in their base. Keep speedling pressure on them expanding and delay it as long as possible while I'm hopefully taking a quick 3rd. Works on my friend every time on 2player maps that have med/short rush distances.
7pool transition (ZvP/ZvT)? [R] - Page 2
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VoiceOfDecember
Australia206 Posts
I love going a 7pool on toss for the reason of map control. It's great. And sometimes they just dont wall off and you can snipe the pylon that powers the gateways and it's a free win. Not allin in my books as I have a next step to expo and drone like crazy as toss is stuck in their base. Keep speedling pressure on them expanding and delay it as long as possible while I'm hopefully taking a quick 3rd. Works on my friend every time on 2player maps that have med/short rush distances. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 03 2011 07:31 CatZ.root wrote: mistaken, with double extractor trick, you have 9 drones mining AND 6 zerglings at the speed of a 7 pool, also the timing is perfect as you get an overlord right after your lings and a really fast queen. you also don't waste any larva. you don't need the overlord to 'pump drones right away' because you can't afford to, but as soon as the overlord pops out, you have enough to start making drones ONE BY ONE. (when i say u can't make drones i mean me, I mean YOU can but that's because u have no queen until later) theorycraft is a wonderful thing, I can see you put a lot of time and effort in working on this build using sick math and writing skills and I admire you for that, yes there is a HUGE difference between your 'fail pool' (cute name) and my 7 pool. mine beats world class players all the time  A lot of sting in that response CatZ, kinda hurts. I don't much appreciate the insinuation of "theorycraft and sick math skills". I arrived at my conclusion much the same way you did yours, by refining the build over and over against the best competition I can find. None-the-less, I will go ahead and re-evaluate my analysis of the follow-up options to see if I had missed something before, because I, much like you, believe the build to be completely viable and am trying to do my part to open eyes on how to take control of the early game with Zerg aggression, sorry I don't have the backing of a pro team... | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1238 Posts
On February 03 2011 23:44 Jermstuddog wrote: A lot of sting in that response CatZ, kinda hurts. I don't much appreciate the insinuation of "theorycraft and sick math skills". I arrived at my conclusion much the same way you did yours, by refining the build over and over against the best competition I can find. None-the-less, I will go ahead and re-evaluate my analysis of the follow-up options to see if I had missed something before, because I, much like you, believe the build to be completely viable and am trying to do my part to open eyes on how to take control of the early game with Zerg aggression, sorry I don't have the backing of a pro team... oh no. "There is a HUGE difference between my fail pool and this 7-pool. My version is more economical as you already have your overlord ready for drone pumping and you don't need to waste the time/money on a double extractor trick. The only advantage the double extractor trick gets you over an 8 overlord is that your 5-6 lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after. Not worth it IMO." you're the one who points out there's a HUGE difference economically speaking. so I am just trying to point you in the right direction, different builds work differently in different situations, I am not saying your 'fail 7-pool' build is bad or anything like that. while you are saying the only advantage my build would have is that your 5th and 6th lings will be with the first 4 instead of slightly after, which is also false, so it makes me think you havent even tried the build? your 5th and 6th lings are slightly behind your first four depending on what positions you spawn, on the bottom left of steppes it will almost make no difference, while on the top right they'll be slightly behind, this is because of the travel distance of the initial drones, as well as the larva placement the game uses by default. your version is NOT more economical. you start 'drone pumping' with 1 less drone, altough you WILL have more income in the short run if you put it to the test, you will suffer in the next couple of minutes because you have no queen. and IF you make a queen (and you should) you'll be behind economically. with my 7 pool, you get 9 drones mining, 6 lings harrasssing off of 1 overlord, a couple of seconds after you can make an overlord and RIGHT when the overlord finishes you get 150 for a queen, and never sit on 3 larva to pump mass drones. what this means is: you are guaranteed to be able to make more drones going into the midgame because you always have enough $ to spend all of your larva incluiding the larva that the queen that you don't have until 20 supply or so gives you. the double extractor trick, barely loses you any time or money, so again, there is no 'sting' intended here, you're the one saying your build is better/more economical than mine and pointing out 'HUGE' differences. for the most part I dislike commenting on the strategy forums for this same reason, I don't like arguing with people here, if i want to talk strategy or efficiency of a build I usually go to a teammate or a friend I consider insightful / good at the game, but given that i was my 7 pool that you were talkin down to, i felt like i had to explain you a few things, hope you understand, no 'sting' or 'hurt' intended, just for the future be more sensitive / careful when talking about someone else's idea or promoting yours, you can easily offend people, much like you were offended by my first reply. p.s: you said 'sorry i don't have the backing of a pro team' : i don't use my team as test subjects, I use the ladder and then once my build is ready i'll play them / talk to them to see how it really measures up. sure its a nice thing to have, but why aren't you in a pro team then? if you havent been noticed, build your own, that's what I did, 'pro team' didn't magically appear out of no where, i recruited every single one of my team's members. this is my last response on the thread, if you want to discuss anything else you're more than welcome to send me a PM, cyu | ||
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VoiceOfDecember
Australia206 Posts
Put the two strats up against eachother and see which one does better for the outcome you want. To me, the build order that has fastest lings out to harrass and ability to gain as much econ as possible after by using larvae the most efficient and making use of a queen will be best. I haven't done the math on the fail pool and the double extractor trick, but from what is said above. Overall the double extractor trick seems better. But I can't say 100% for sure as I said before. Haven't played the numbers game yet. I'm curious now  Someone put these two badboys side by side to see the advantages of both build orders  [I'd do it but I'm at work] | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
To CatZ, I really appreciate the responses and input. Pros posting in the strategy forum are few and far between these days, and having insight from such notable, high-level players is way better than a random joe like me. Please don't take my posts as cocky and ignorant, your time is not being wasted with noobs who don't listen. I will put in the work to validate the discussion. | ||
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Crovea
Denmark100 Posts
double extractor trick 3 sets of lings, make an overlord --> queen --> expo or whatever. It's really strong for sure, forces the protoss to be defensive with forge/cannons (only do it against protoss) It's weakness is stargate for sure, you can't get hydras in time & you dont have money for alot of queens in my experience. But hey, i expand to the gold mostly, if you don't do that, i'm sure you can defend anything with it. (i don't need to kill anything with this, i just force him to wall himself in, or punish him with the lings) | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On February 04 2011 07:23 VoiceOfDecember wrote: Treat CatZ points of view as if he was a random dude as the strategy speaks for itself. Just because CatZ is on ROOT doesn't mean his buildorder on a 7pool is any stronger lol. My little sister could do it. Wow BM... You might find yourself to be successful if you treat CatZ's point of view as one that comes from a progamer that knows what he is talking about. You actually had a top200 post here in the strategy forums that is full of silver league build orders and are telling people to react to him as if he knows nothing? Let's preach respect for those who are more credible than others. Together we can achieve more. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On February 03 2011 23:44 Jermstuddog wrote: I don't much appreciate the insinuation of "theorycraft and sick math skills". I arrived at my conclusion much the same way you did yours, by refining the build over and over against the best competition I can find. I'll take any bet you want that the best competition you can find doesn't compare in the slightest way to the best competition Catz can find. ... From other economic experimentation I have done, I know that the speed at which you get a queen matters. A LOT. If Catz says he gets a queen significantly faster than you (and there's no reason to assume that he's incorrect about that, since you haven't countered that assertion), then without some demonstration of significant economic superiority in other areas (and the cost of an extractor trick is pretty negligible, so don't expect to be making up the difference there), your build is simply going to be inferior, end of story. Think about it this way: 11 pool 18 hatch compares quite well economically with HATCH-FIRST builds, simply because of the earlier queen. That's how much the queen matters. ***EDIT*** I just took a look at your "Fail Pool" liquipedia entry, to get a look at some replays to see just how much you're delaying the queen. So I look for replays in the article, and what do I see? A cast of Root Gaming vs Fnatic, showcasing Catz and his superior 7 pool with the early queen. Kinda weird to claim one start is superior to another, but then leave only displays of the "inferior" build as video evidence, don't you think? | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
I feel in ZvZ it gives you huge advantages against hatch first builds and throws most enemies off their game. I only used it in ZvZ so far, because Z can´t defend very cost effective i.e. with a wall-in very early in the game. Ideal defence would, I think, be a slightly slower pool than the aggressor. Genuinely didn´t know Catz had a much better version of the thing I do. Will definitely try his version out. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 04 2011 09:42 Skrag wrote: I just took a look at your "Fail Pool" liquipedia entry, to get a look at some replays to see just how much you're delaying the queen. So I look for replays in the article, and what do I see? A cast of Root Gaming vs Fnatic, showcasing Catz and his superior 7 pool with the early queen. Kinda weird to claim one start is superior to another, but then leave only displays of the "inferior" build as video evidence, don't you think? That was also removed from the article in a recent update, but hasn't been pushed to the stable version. I noticed the difference and figured that whole issue out. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On February 04 2011 10:19 Jermstuddog wrote: That was also removed from the article in a recent update, but hasn't been pushed to the stable version. I noticed the difference and figured that whole issue out. So when do you get a queen? I don't see a mention of it anywhere in the first 18 supply, no replays at all, and if you're waiting even that long, there's absolutely no way your version is economically superior as you claim, and in fact fails at its primary stated goal, which is to appear to your opponent as an all-in "but transition quickly into an econ heavy game". There is really no such thing as an "econ heavy game" without a queen, because queens are better than hatcheries, for half the cost. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I can tell you before I even look at the numbers CatZ build is more economical than mine. As soon as I set down to test them, I noted that he only makes 6 lings compared to my 8. His is exclusively used on 2-player maps like steppes, where a scouting drone is not needed, where as I am willing to do mine on ANY map and ALWAYS send a scouting drone for potential building blocks even if its not needed. So fundamentally, his build is better economically, the question is then: "How much better? and is it worth it?" I would also like to take this time to point out that the numbers only tell part of the story, and CatZ would agree with me on this point. It is much more important to react to whatever your opponent is doing and plan accordingly, so take the test results with a grain of salt. Using Steppes, where CatZ would recommend taking a gold as the expo because "there's no reason not to" I suicided all lings made into my easy computer opponents base, then proceeded with my typical follow-up which is mass +1 speedlings and paused the game at 6 minutes. CatZ Pool 2825 minerals spent on economy 25 drones, with 4 more almost done spawn larva 1/2 way done 218 minerals and 88 gas banked 20 minerals and 4 gas on the way back 4 overlords 1 queen 1 larva expo hatch 88% done (would finish at 6:12) Fail Pool 2425 spent on economy 19 drones, with 1 almost done and 3 more just started spawn larva not currently up 236 minerals and 32 gas banked 12 minerals and 4 gas on the way back 3 overlords 1 queen 2 larva expo hatch is completely done (finished at 5:19) Key Differences CatZ Advantages 6 more Drones an Overlord 294 minerals 56 gas 1/2 a Spawn Larva Fail Advantages expo hatch is complete 54 seconds sooner 1 larva Now we already said the numbers don't tell the whole story, and we have a run into a lot of small issues when trying to interpret these numbers anyway. I would say it's safe to say that my build has the potential to do more damage than CatZ's version due to the scouting drone and 2 extra lings. Neither build intends to win the game right then and there, but more probes dead = less drones needed for an economic advantage. Can you put this into numbers? ... Not really... The amount of probes you kill depends entirely on how your opponent chooses to defend and how successful that defense is. The entire point of the build is that there is no GOOD option for Protoss to defend a 7 pool, they all have drawbacks. Some of those defenses can leave their probes completely untouched while crippling their army production capabilities. Other defenses can leave their army production facilities perfectly intact while they throw away 6-8 probes in the choke point while they wait for their Zealots, sometimes when they get those Zealots, they keep them in their choke, other times, they blindly attack into your base, still other variations will leave them with no losses, but a currently useless forge and cannon, sometimes you break through their defense and kill more probes than you set out to. All of these variances lead to very different follow ups, in the case of my build, sometimes I have 8 Zerglings left, sometimes I have 0, this changes when you want to build your overlords, queen, hatchery, and extractor. Going back to the questions of "How much better? and is it worth it?" My final input on it is: umm... I'm not sure... I am happy to concede that I was flat out wrong. His build is just better economically, but is the earlier queen and 6 more drones worth more than the earlier hatch and stronger pressure? I guess that's up to the user. P.S for the record, in this particular trial, my queen is built on 15 supply. obligatory replays: Fail Pool http://www.nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=106 Catz Pool http://www.nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=105 | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
As far as it being superior, it very well could be but I'm not sure if 6 drones is better than 55 seconds of 2 base mining... I guess assuming the drone advantage sticks then it is better all-around. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
Which, if true, is hardly a good trade for the ability to have 2 extra lings out, and a slightly faster hatch that you're not going to be able to use to full potential anyway, because you're so far behind on minerals. To think about it another way, right at that particular point in time, catz is mining a full 25% more minerals than you are, and that is a gap that you will most likely *never* be able to close completely, and in fact, that advantage alone probably builds on itself for the rest of the game. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 04 2011 12:10 Skrag wrote: 6 drones (which is actually closer to 10-11 based on "almost done" vs "just started" and spawn larva being halfway done, is worth a *lot*, and I also don't see where you're getting a 6 mineral advantage for your build vs catz. To me it looks like you're about 400 minerals behind, not 6 ahead. Which, if true, is hardly a good trade for the ability to have 2 extra lings out, and a slightly faster hatch that you're not going to be able to use to full potential anyway, because you're so far behind on minerals. To think about it another way, right at that particular point in time, catz is mining a full 25% more minerals than you are, and that is a gap that you will most likely *never* be able to close completely, and in fact, that advantage alone probably builds on itself for the rest of the game. minerals MINED it is behind, I am giving you current numbers at the 6 minute mark which has my banked minerals 6 above his. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On February 04 2011 12:10 Jermstuddog wrote: It's very possible that it won't deal more damage, it all depends on how your opponent reacts, but simple math would say that a possible hero drone blocking a pylon and 2 extra lings COULD kill an extra probe or two. As far as it being superior, it very well could be but I'm not sure if 6 drones is better than 55 seconds of 2 base mining... I guess assuming the drone advantage sticks then it is better all-around. There is zero advantage to having X drones mining 2 bases instead of 1 unless X is greater than 16 (2 per patch mines exactly as efficiently as one), and even then, the difference is pretty small. Certainly not anything that would be worth 400 minerals and 10-11 drones. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On February 04 2011 12:11 Jermstuddog wrote: minerals MINED it is behind, I am giving you current numbers at the 6 minute mark which has my banked minerals 6 above his. Which is a completely irrelevant number, and very misleading of you to even state. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 04 2011 12:12 Skrag wrote: Which is a completely irrelevant number, and very misleading of you to even state. Reworded then. It's not my intent to mislead or justify those differences, just to state them for your interpretation. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
It gave me interesting insights into the finer details of 7pool. | ||
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