[H] TvP mid-game

Treva

United States533 Posts

August 14 2010 09:00 GMT

Hey I'm a mid level Diamond Terran and I have a good ghost rine build against protoss that ends games always under 14 minutes. However, I can't do this build forever as protoss's are getting better at detecting/reacting to this build. So I've been trying to take my build into more mech play opposed to bio (what I'm used to) and I just can't make it work.

I just need a general understanding of what to do with mech as T against P because right now I just seem like I get crushed with whatever I throw against P because I don't really know how to use it against P. I can make the units sure but the execution is what I am having trouble with. Any advice on how to approach mech against P would be great. Thanks.

Oh and I'm not posting replays because my problems are based around the understanding of the approach, not the game play itself :-)

Deleted User 47542

1484 Posts

August 14 2010 09:18 GMT

In TvP, Terran is the reactive race while Protoss holds most of the cards. 3 gate robo, 4 gate, 2 gate voidray, etc, each one has a different response. Aggressive terran openings in my opinion are shut down a bit too easily, or can be completely annihilated by one void ray.

Opening marine/ghost was also a favorite of mine, but I no longer use it due to it's pretty bad transitioning, and can get demolished pretty easily by a well spread toss, + good force fields.

I am a 850ish terran player and find that opening 1-1-1 is pretty much the best way to get to the mid game. If I see only 2 gates, I assume hidden stargate. If I see 3 gate robo, I go for tank/bunker into expand(very very heavy on rines). If I see 4 gate I just bunker up while cloak banshee rushing. Best way to scout is a delayed reaper, if that fails its lucky scans or guesswork T_T

The midgame is pretty much where you want the game to end, since if it becomes a split map type of game, protoss will will be ridiculous to deal with. They can seriously go mass cannon/templar at expos, tech switch to void rays, completely dodge your army until your tanks are out of position, etc.

Honestly, I don't think mech works to well vs protoss, just because of the threat of a tech switch to mass void rays. Just stick to tank/marauder/marine/raven/ghost, positioning and microing in the engagements is the tough part due to collosus and storm. Microing a mid-late game terran army is NOT easy. You have to keep tanks in a good position, kite with marine/marauder, while dodging storms and collosus, throw down pdd, and emp with ghosts. Make sure you have at least 3 control groups for your units, and just micro the shit out of the big engagement since if you come out ahead you can just do a death march to his main.

Just like in BW, defensive play/expanding, into a strong push is probably what TvP will turn into in my opinion. Right now the maps are just flat out terrible so builds, etc, are very situational.

FoUsTy

France45 Posts

August 14 2010 09:45 GMT

Don't go mech, add marauder medivac 1/1 take exp orbital bunker, take third planetary...gg.
TvP is imbalance all game, but really imbalance at early mid late... On mid/late toss got a little chance.

Just my thnik...not general.

freshiie22

Canada132 Posts

August 14 2010 09:48 GMT

yea i find playing vs toss is so ridiculos i mean they can just open 2-3 gate robo w,e hold u off or just pick at ur army then out a no where ull zee like 5+ VRays pull up behind ur mineral line. VR serioulsly are an endgame unit no mater if u have the right counter. VRays are a cool unit on papaer but it just doesnt work out in game, nd theyre so heavily abused, this is why i try toend the game within the first 20 mins cuzz if they open early rays thats easy to counter.

iEchoic

United States1776 Posts

August 14 2010 09:48 GMT

Bio is still very powerful, even lategame. I'd recommend looking up some qxc tvp replays, particularly the 1rax FE build. Marines/ghosts alone are too easily hard countered and can't be relied on once high tech units come out.

Pigzyf5

Australia131 Posts

August 14 2010 09:52 GMT

im also a dimond player, i have trouble against toss, largely due to there many opernings as well. i dont like going pure mech, but bio mech works well in the midgame, with a focus on marrines, against zelto/templar i added in more helliens so i can stop myself from being put monovered while dealing pain to the light targets. But as above said, 1-1-1 seems to be the most stable at the moments, it allows u to react to what ever they are 'tossing' (nice pun^^) at you. Fast ravein can be so good, stoped obs scouting and auto turret in min line really holds the toss back while u exspo

Deleted User 47542

1484 Posts

August 14 2010 09:57 GMT

On August 14 2010 18:45 FoUsTy wrote:
Don't go mech, add marauder medivac 1/1 take exp orbital bunker, take third planetary...gg.
TvP is imbalance all game, but really imbalance at early mid late... On mid/late toss got a little chance.

Just my thnik...not general.

Can I just be the first to say, "What the fuck?"

Treva

United States533 Posts

August 14 2010 17:14 GMT

Thanks for the advice, I don't agree at all that TvP is imba the entire game and the 'just do this this and this vP and gg' is accurate at all. I'm going to stick with mainly bio but I'll add the things I need from there but right now it looks like I'm just gonna practice practice practice, hopefully I can post some replays soon, thanks again everyone :-)

jamvng

Canada244 Posts

August 14 2010 18:56 GMT

I think biomech like some people have said is the way to go. You're just a lot more mobile than full on mech but you still have the benefit of having tanks. I open with a fast tank; susceptible to agressive stalker play in the beginning, but tank pops out in time before too much damage. But you can open with rax play too and add tanks later. I only build a super early starport if I suspect void rays, otherwise I prefer to get an expansion up as soon as I know I can defend it (1 rax 1 fact expand, depending on map), and then add on more raxes for maurauders, a starport for medivacs/vikings and a ghost academy.

I would go more mech if I see a lot of zealots (or I know there are templar coming); I would add more factories for hellions. Harass with hellions/raven auto turrets.

(Diamond player 300-400 atm, just got into Diamond not long ago :D)

Setz

United States5 Posts

August 14 2010 20:16 GMT

#10

You can shut down a void ray tech by going 1 rax, 1 marine 2 marauder rush with snare upgrade. By the time you get to his base he will either have 2 stalkers and a zealot or 1 stalker and 2 zealots which you should easily be able to outmicro with marauder snare. He can still get void rays, but as soon as you send out your first push you build 2 more rax and pump marines. Completely nullifies his void ray advantage. This pretty much puts the ball in your court, and forces toss to play your game by going ground. Get a ghost or two. From here you can tech up to banshees or medivacs, I usually don't get tanks against toss. Don't forget about hellions, they are often overlooked and are one of your greatest assets against a protoss player, his zealots will annihilate your ground without them. Plus they're just annoying.

TvP is a very tough match-up, T really has to stay on the ball with micro and keep a close eye on the field to see what units are coming out. Toss has a lot of avenues they can go against T and it's GG if you get caught with your pants down.

(Rank 16 Diamond)

Treva

United States533 Posts

August 14 2010 20:28 GMT

#11

Yeah I feel that I need ghost against P period no matter what I go because who doesn't love to EMP a huge group of HTs/DTs or anything with a shield :-P, but yeah I agree with you Setz I'm not real big on tanks vs toss just because I don't think they pack really a much needed punch that you get out of vT or vZ so with that being said I think more bio with some maybe banshee/medi support and ghost is the way to go as long as those emps go off on the right things at the right time I see the build being good, now off to the build order tester!

jamvng

Canada244 Posts

August 14 2010 22:38 GMT

#12

On August 15 2010 05:28 Treva wrote:
Yeah I feel that I need ghost against P period no matter what I go because who doesn't love to EMP a huge group of HTs/DTs or anything with a shield :-P, but yeah I agree with you Setz I'm not real big on tanks vs toss just because I don't think they pack really a much needed punch that you get out of vT or vZ so with that being said I think more bio with some maybe banshee/medi support and ghost is the way to go as long as those emps go off on the right things at the right time I see the build being good, now off to the build order tester!

Tanks aren't mobile, but I feel they are still pretty good against toss. There have been so many times when players just run into sieged tanks, and I murder them w/o even microing, only pressing T to stim my infantry. If there are a lot of immortals, just 2-3 EMPs, and they get owned from the tanks. I don't mass tanks, but just get a critical number. Plus it'll be harder to storm my bio units if put them behind tanks. And tanks are decent against colossus coupled with a few vikings. The splash will get the colossus AND any unit under it. I can still be agreesive with drops if I need to since I'm going biomech.

I guess it's really a preference thing too.

VanGarde

Sweden755 Posts

August 14 2010 22:45 GMT

#13

I feel like the two options for terran early game is my greatest hardship. In my experience there really is only two things that work, either the BratOK build which will keep you safe to all of the early game protoss shenanigans. Or a 1-1-1 build into expand.

But as for midgame I feel that the 1-1-1 is so fragile to early pushes, robo timing push and voidrays that I just end up dying right off the bat, and the BratOK build feels so all-in that I either kill the protoss with the first push or I fail and have nothing to defend my expo with.

Gecko

United States519 Posts

August 14 2010 22:50 GMT

#14

On August 14 2010 18:18 superbabosheki wrote:
In TvP, Terran is the reactive race while Protoss holds most of the cards.

Im pretty sure its the other way around, Gateway units fail vs barracks and factory units so the protoss has to tech up for upgrades and higher tier units depending on what the terran is making.

EDIT: Now that i think about it, playing 1-1-1 could be reactionary. but 3 Rax builds always make terran the aggressor, and that is pretty much standard play on the ladder from what i have seen.

kme

Serbia176 Posts

August 14 2010 23:05 GMT

#15

On August 14 2010 18:18 superbabosheki wrote:
In TvP, Terran is the reactive race while Protoss holds most of the cards. 3 gate robo, 4 gate, 2 gate voidray, etc, each one has a different response. Aggressive terran openings in my opinion are shut down a bit too easily, or can be completely annihilated by one void ray.

Opening marine/ghost was also a favorite of mine, but I no longer use it due to it's pretty bad transitioning, and can get demolished pretty easily by a well spread toss, + good force fields.

I am a 850ish terran player and find that opening 1-1-1 is pretty much the best way to get to the mid game. If I see only 2 gates, I assume hidden stargate. If I see 3 gate robo, I go for tank/bunker into expand(very very heavy on rines). If I see 4 gate I just bunker up while cloak banshee rushing. Best way to scout is a delayed reaper, if that fails its lucky scans or guesswork T_T

The midgame is pretty much where you want the game to end, since if it becomes a split map type of game, protoss will will be ridiculous to deal with. They can seriously go mass cannon/templar at expos, tech switch to void rays, completely dodge your army until your tanks are out of position, etc.

Honestly, I don't think mech works to well vs protoss, just because of the threat of a tech switch to mass void rays. Just stick to tank/marauder/marine/raven/ghost, positioning and microing in the engagements is the tough part due to collosus and storm. Microing a mid-late game terran army is NOT easy. You have to keep tanks in a good position, kite with marine/marauder, while dodging storms and collosus, throw down pdd, and emp with ghosts. Make sure you have at least 3 control groups for your units, and just micro the shit out of the big engagement since if you come out ahead you can just do a death march to his main.

Just like in BW, defensive play/expanding, into a strong push is probably what TvP will turn into in my opinion. Right now the maps are just flat out terrible so builds, etc, are very situational.

I'm curious, what do you do on maps with backdoors. Do you still go 1/1/1 or do you somehow adjust.

Deleted User 47542

1484 Posts

August 15 2010 05:53 GMT

#16

On August 15 2010 08:05 kme wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm curious, what do you do on maps with backdoors. Do you still go 1/1/1 or do you somehow adjust.

Honestly I have blistering and kulas crossed off, just because of backdoors are completely imbalanced in TvP imo. But if you want a build that will win you a lot of games, use a more technical cheese xD. 1 rax, tech lab right away, reaper to kill/deny scout(send it to watchtower after killing initial probe). Then throw down 3 more raxes, cut scv production, research stim right away while pumping 1 marauder and 3 rines per cycle. You can push out with 2-3 marauders, 3 rines, 1 reaper, 4-5 scvs, and constantly reinforce. This build had a surprisingly high winrate on Kulas before I crossed it off my map list.

Other than that you can just do a 1-1-1 and be very proactive at scouting, on Kulas especially blink stalkers into dark templar can be a pain, on blistering a 5 gate all-in is way too powerful so I don't know what to do there, even if you put a lottt of bunkers, toss can just expand freely while you still have to protect two entrances.

911insidejob

United States39 Posts

August 15 2010 06:34 GMT

#17

P is a really hard matchup for T, as someone said P dictates which direction the game will go. not sure what fousty is on about.

Mech has really been ruined in sc 2, and terran is forced go bio, which the toss destroys with storm now very easily. i would never have guessed they would make storm even more powerful than in the first game, but they have. since units now clump together so well, the storm covers alot more units. and since terran cant really go mech because of the void ray threat, terran has to go bio. its a hard matchup and we have to either hope for storm to get nerfed, or hope for thor's food cost to be cut in half or something like that, because @ the moment P is very overpowered.

I am thinking about going back to sc 1, atleast in the first one you can go mech in TvP. here its not viable because if you go mech, they will always go void ray into big air and you cant counter it with tanks or thors obviously.

AncienTs

Japan227 Posts

August 15 2010 06:42 GMT

#18

hm.. as a 600+ diamond protoss player i find that the most effective terrans keep their armies on the move when fighting... it's not really a matter of "which build is the most standard" because I think most terran/protoss players know the general timing of certain builds, and will react accordingly as their experience accumulates. In fact, I believe memorizing builds is the easiest part.

Again, there's still a large skill gradient to be mastered in terms of TvP execution, rather than general discussion about build-orders or "hard-counters". It's a matter of even attempting difficult micro execution during battle and exploiting the specifics of every map at the most opportune time (knowing when to cliff someone with a tank on LT, as a simple example). Some other crude examples include but are not limited to: on wide open areas, the terran army should be constantly split and re-arranged into maximum concave, click-drag small groups of marauders so that you don't "over-shoot"...etc. These are the finer things that make or break a TvP match-up, imo.

To begin, find a good practice partner to sharpen your sense and skills without too much pressure =)

LaiShin

Australia978 Posts

August 15 2010 06:45 GMT

#19

Fousty is most definitely trolling.

I don't think i've ever won TvP after it reaches mid-game unless the P over-expands or doesn't macro enough. Mid-game onwards, it's all about sniping collosus/templars before the fight starts.. Sniping collosus is easy, but templars require a bit more precision and i'm horrible at that.

Last resort is flanking them!!

Deleted User 47542

1484 Posts

August 15 2010 06:54 GMT

#20

On August 15 2010 15:45 LaiShin wrote:
Fousty is most definitely trolling.

I don't think i've ever won TvP after it reaches mid-game unless the P over-expands or doesn't macro enough. Mid-game onwards, it's all about sniping collosus/templars before the fight starts.. Sniping collosus is easy, but templars require a bit more precision and i'm horrible at that.

Last resort is flanking them!!

Skill level? Toss shines in late game, due to how fast they can rebuild an army, tech switch to void rays, defend expos with storm/cannon, still have walking death stars, have map hack units, flank/avoid a terran ball and waiting for it to get out of position, etc.

It is so hard for Terran to take out expos because of the risk of getting backstabbed(which is in the tosses favor, he can take out your bases for almost no cost while he warps in templar and stays cost effective vs your main army).

edit: terran flank? wtf lol

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