EPT@TT:
didn't see you comment on this one Maybe missed it, but I think you commented all my other posts but this one.
[M][N] A Mini With Funny Gifs - Page 9
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
@TT: didn't see you comment on this one Maybe missed it, but I think you commented all my other posts but this one. | ||
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mahrgell
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First of all... I have a fair few gripes with players, but this one tops it ^.^ Like if I would read my own HF rants and then decide to trigger myself, I think I would play like sicklucker ^^ (100% sure this isn't the case, but just saying...) Let's start with the conclusion first: sicklucker easily overtook HF as my vote of choice here. Not because HF suddenly looks better, but because sicklucker looks way worse. Like I blame HF for not coming out of his corner to start playing in a more open field to evaluate his play. But SL came out, and he intentionally played bad. Thus ##unvote ##vote sicklucker If I would have to summarize his posts quickly it would be: - shits up the thread and makes no sense - intentionally makes reads out of thin air and for false reasons - the timing of his entry was completely off - his "explanation" of his D1/N1 play or the lack there of is... bad. And honestly I don't feel like doing a post by post analysis here. Pretty much all his posts fall in above mentioned categories. Like there is not a single judgement he makes regarding himself or other players(HF, shlog, DF, myself) that I can follow. + Show Spoiler + I guess I respond to the one concerning me though: On December 02 2016 09:59 sicklucker wrote: lol theres no way a mafia newb like mahrgell has the balls to go after hf this hard as mafia Do we know each other? If you had paid the slightest amount of attention to this game (or read my previous game, which I don't expect anybody to do, but obv some did) you would have noticed by now that this is absolutely not my style. I don't give a damn about reputation. I factor it in when I judge people, but in no world will I stand there and think "Uh, this guy is good, I better not kill him". I don't believe in people talking about what they would(n't) do as scum. But I tell you one thing: Too much respect is not part of my scum play or any play. Oh, and I hate people basing their reads on my game count. Especially his self view is troubling. I had issues with Koshi and HF about their weird kind of postulated image. But I somehow still felt this was more of an issue with character or play style. With SL I can't honestly believe that he was in any way a driving force behind the NU lynch. I can't imagine him really thinking that ins some weird fairy world he would be more than a townlead for anyone and he actually should know from this thread with everyone posting thoughts, that basically only afk-shlog and afk-cm8 are standing between him and a lynch. Which leads me to the conclusion that he does not believe it. Similar to his "reads" he is just shitting up. Point being though, while accidentally doing bad shit is often considered a towntell I can't find a single interpretation of where a townie intentionally does this. I know that the WIFOM here is "But then a scum would never do it either". Problem is... There is simply no valid townview, so the scumview has to be accepted. I was refusing D1 and N1 to believe this can really be scum play. Very similar to how I felt about NU day1. But I simply cant hold this ground any longer. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
I'm fully willing to take part in the shlog investigation, I would really like to have HF discussed, and if CM8 or Onegu come back, torture them for hours until they spew. But I can't see what they can do to look more scum than SL. And with the way SL is playing I don't feel like questioning him actually and don't see what he could say to change my mind unless he does a 180° on everything and then gives the explanation of the century how this can be townplay. *If there is a close race between 2 others I will come to consolidate. | ||
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mahrgell
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Filled the thread enough. Sorry for falling back to my old wall-of-text style -.- | ||
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mahrgell
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And I really don't feel like argueing how I play as scum. What makes me more curious though is that you say his read on me makes perfect sense, because scum!mahrgell would not dare to go after his gloryness... And then at the same time suddenly swing back on me, because mahrgell must obviously be scum!mahrgell as he goes after his gloryness which is completely outrageous. I'm completely fine with you tunneling me because I somehow made posts attacking you. But at least try to be consistent for a few seconds. That you obviously feel his read on you makes sense doesn't surprise me though. Also I came off Rels for something completely different. And I posted it. It was him basically giving wrong meta information about SL. I was off him very quick after my large post, but kept the thing going to gather information. I later clarifified this before EoN. Also could you stop this "you had a boner for rels because HF said so" story? I had a boner for Rels at EoD because his one self declaration, something which I feel I overjumped, but still. And then I had a boner for Rels when I actually started filter diving through the night and felt he was bad. Yes, this incorporated the one argument you brought against him, which I had missed earlier. But if you feel I'm sheeping you all game, you really need to check your ego. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
I hope he posts soon though, otherwise I will have to wait until the later evening before I can comment on it. But I appreciate your concerns/questions and will have them in mind when looking at him. --- Also I noticed I raged a lot lately...Sorry for that, ego and emotions can't be completely turned off (and this shouldn't be an excuse, I know and thus it is not and I really want to apologize) I will try to tone down a bit again. No this does not get me off either HF or SL, but I will try my best to present my vies in a calmer manner ^.^ Taking a walk now, this helped earlier. | ||
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mahrgell
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On December 03 2016 02:27 Tictock wrote: Your conclusion here is correct, but let me tell you a story about how the bolder line of thought can lead you astray. Long long ago, in a thread not so far away, a dude named Tictock rolled scum for the first time. His teammates names are unimportant so let's call them X and Y. After a day full of spamming and saying whatever he felt he needed to our hero Tictock had managed to avoid most of the suspicion and even helped get his buddy X out from the spotlight just enough that Town decided to hang what turned out to be their only blue role. The blue claimed far too late and our hero Tictock laughed at Town's mistake safely riding an alternate wagon. His buddy X however was voting for the blue and in a moment of panicked genius X invited right at EoD without placing a new vote. Town was shocked, and amazed at X's bravery. He had risked the mighty mod hammer by technically not voting, and thus they concluded he could never be Scum. Tictock, X, and Y celebrated their success and applauded X for his maneuver. As the Days went by X became more and more fearful and spoke less and less, Y eventually faultered and was found out by the Town. In the end though our hero Tictock did enough talking and X had gained so much respect for his risking the mod hammer that they managed to subvert the town and rid themselves of the Holy Guardians doo-gooders once and for all. + Show Spoiler [TLDR] + In my first mafia game, Holy Guardians, I had a teammate get insane towncred by unvoting off the D1 lynch right at deadline when the guy claimed blue. Everyone said there was no way Mafia would risk a modkill trying to save a blue role. We easily rode that sentiment to victory despite my buddy never being able to keep himself posting more than the bare minimum. Acknowledged, then I will try to ban that reasoning from my mind and I think this discussion can be considered finished. But thanks. I didn't know this was really viable/tolerated. | ||
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mahrgell
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On December 03 2016 02:53 Tictock wrote: Humm expected a bit more activity while I slept. I hope we don't have to wait half a phase to hear from Rels again. At this point I think it's safe to say CM8 has given up on this game. I'm kinda with Gell on waiting for Shapes reads but I also don't see anything in his posts thus far that make me think anything but scum. HF did a nice summary of what felt wrong with his posts today. I suppose if nothing is happening I'll try and filter Onegu and darth. I'd still like to know how in the world Onegu had me as like top teir town on D1. Has anything come out of those searches? With everyone disappearing we have time to talk ^.^ (though I would prefer to talk HF and SL, but there seems absolutely no interest at all to do that...) | ||
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mahrgell
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On December 03 2016 04:08 emperorchampion wrote: Can you provide some examples of point 2? Can you expand on point 3? Honestly, some stuff had been mentioned before, and the rest I didn't feel like detailing. I for once wanted to keep a post short... But I guess... You really want me to drop wots. But let's go for it. Gimme a bit of time. | ||
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mahrgell
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On December 03 2016 09:33 Tictock wrote: Really don't feel like doing another of those. Feel fine with lynching Shape still. I'll be really surprised if the last 2 mafia are not in Shape/CM8/Onegu/SL. @Gell if you wanna talk about HF I'm all ears but I still think he is town and even if I had more doubt I think there are far better targets. I don't entirely disagree on there being better targets. Then again, I just went into SLs filter again and it read much better than what my memory gave me yesterday. Like this runthrough does make him still shady but not this "wtf is he doing" - kind of shady I had in mind yesterday. His tone completely ticks me off though. I will put my thoughts on him in an extra post. Like right now I think I will take a step back and reevalutate everything. I really have to do that with a clear mind. I would have hoped I had this earlier this morning already :/ So sleep over everything. Then reread SL again. Reread HF again. Hope that Shlog posted and finally do his stuff. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
I feel not as bad anymore as I did in the morning, but I still not feel good. But I will reevaluate later again, just dropping what is in my mind currently. Honestly, I don't expect anyone to make sense of this list, it will probably just end as a reminder to myself what I felt here. But if someone feels something of this is valuable, go for it. But I will make something more readable after reevaluation. Just marking stuff down as I go though the filter from EoN to now. - he drops into the thread rather soonish after the EoN - calls out no medic - claims that HF must be clearly the protected one - HF was far from toptown on pretty much any night list, and SL later even posted that HFs great crumbs were obv wrong - I won't speculate too much, but if you ask me, who was protected, I would bet (knowing that it wasn't Koshi) a lot on Emp, with him being townlocked by literally everyone. And it was Koshi who iirc hinted towards Rels being a likely lynch (read: a good protection target) - talks about Koshi and the JK. (this actually disturbed me this morning more than it does now that I reread it though, as the post could be purely hypothetical as in "IF there was a JK and IF it would have targeted koshi" I felt more like this was tmi but right now I actually feel somehow okay) - answers to dead Koshi throwing stuff against him. - his general order of posting somehow makes me doubt he just joined back. Like... I don't know, call it gutread. But I can't follow. - I'm a sucker for this "do your metathingie on me [and confirm me town] and then listen exactly to what I say" - He really hasn't given much reason at all this game to listen what he says. If his NU afk lynch is his only argumen and we assume him town... this still does not give any of his future reads any more weight. And given out of the blue reads so far... - The DF case reads actually better thought out than what I had in mind. I hink I discarded it, because it felt like this was already discussed over and over with a different conclusion. But let's have SL have a different opinion here. - I hate his post on me. Whoever was with me in the last game know how those kind of reads on me make me really alert. Also I don't believe my play in this game justifies this kind of read at all. Do it CM8... maybe. Do it on me? GRRR. Maybe I think too highly of myself here though (or everyone else too lowly :D:D:D) - him explaining this "why would HF not NK Koshi thing"... I don't know if this is kinda like a thing between the more well known players here, to make such posts of lengths ignoring any facts but just to tell each other how great they are. Well given that both love to tell everyone how great they are themselves, maybe occasionally doing that with each other bounds them. - But basically the entire post starts of 2 completely wrong premises. First of all HF was not toptown. Secondly if HF was scum, he would have felt like this is an easy win? I think nobody doubts HF has a huge ego. But really? Scum loses their Framer Day1, they are now playing 2v10, with 2 blues out there. And HF would feel like "all dandy boys, easiest game of my life". Like at this point I really have to question how people make up the weirdest excuses for HF. First HF would never accept his Framer to just pass out Day1, then suddenly HF would feel this is absolutely no problem and he easily got this game. Okay. At least everyone making/accepting the first should call out the second and reverse. - points out his reasoning for lynching NU. Okay. If this was his reasoning (and again, we assume SL to be town confirmed) this really does not convince me at all to sheep him as he asked for earlier. - claims he didnt try to get towncred from it. OKAY. Really? Like the only defense he ever brought was "I was clearly driving force behind the lynch against NU" - Besides that he should be fully aware that he wasn't, claiming that he never tried to take towncred is... uhk... - next post he repeats the story about him being so influential (honestly, did anyone even bother using SL's "point" against NU???) and tries to take towncred for it -more DF stuff, as detailed earlier, rereading it makes it a bit more logical than what I had in mind. -claims he tunneled 2 ppl. Uh.. I guess with enough ego you can call his NU "read" a tunnel? - uhks... talks about HF being JK'ed. This time no hypetheticals. This IS tmi. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
##unvote SL, HF or Shlog it is, I guess. | ||
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On December 03 2016 09:43 Rels wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 02 2016 09:25 mahrgell wrote: First of all. I already said, that the first link for my is ust policy lynch territory. The second one is really not. Like I have no clue how the TL mafia meta goes. But hailing players as such great mafia players, when this seems to be entirely based on them establishing such a bullshit meta and not ever being questioned y anyone else out of some weird kind of respect for it seems fucking weird. Now to the rest: I am not disagreeing with the part that his reads were kinda fluent. Hell, his "advice" to me regarding how to improve my play was actually good. But the point is, that every semi competent player should be able to do fluent reads when he singles out only 2 or 3 people out of 13. Other players(town and scum) make weird stuff. ump on those and score your points. Where scum really trips is when they have to deal those players who are more difficult. When they have to commit to interpretations etc. Again, you tell me this is his meta. If it is, great, then his play is not scum indicative. But it still has to be questioned. Next you say he is not hiding behind it? Really? Are we even in the same game? I'm not in the mood to filter dive right now, but from memory I know that when he was on me, I asked several questions regarding other players, wanted reads on anyone but me, he refused, saying that he is all on me, and doesnt care about anyone els,e because at work. He later came back, and didn't bother one bit to look a bit broader. Later on, he replaced me with you, now all he did was going after you. Again, there were several instances were he actively said that he is not willing to dive other filters and refused to answer questions. Really? He is not hiding behind this bullshit meta you are so willing to accept? Now look at his defenses. Not sure in what world he is living, but nope. Simply nope. His entire acitivity was on a handful players. If we do not udge acitvity by post count (Onegu would also do really well in that category) but how much of the game the person covered, than HF is in deep shit territory. Next post. Oh, wasn't he just a second ago so certain how great his play was? Suddenly he is getting tunneled on players who scumread him. Sounds like absolutely great mafia play. And yes, I completely agree that sometimes giving each other breathing room is a great idea. But when someone tells you to stop this tone, then going in, escalating it further and then using this as a bargain chip to get your breathing room? Nope! And seemingly this is completely okay for everyone. Okay, not much time has passed. But somehow I feel people are again gonna accept this. He did the same D1 and everybody was fine with it. Today I won't. If this is really all he has to bring, he should die. Like until now I tried to pay respect to what people told me about the meta on TL and in forum mafia in general. But this case I really can not do that, because it reminds me of last game. You were in there. I called out Foreman for exactly the same shit on D1. That he was scum in this case can be called noobs luck on my part. But anyway. I felt my case was reasonable. But then everybody jumped me. "But Mahrgell, him not answering your questions and giving you a finger, this could be part of his character and meta. This is really nothing." And Foreman grinned happily and didn't answer "But Mahrgell, him not caring about large parts of the game and publicly celebrating this arrogant and ignorant attitude, this could be really part of his meta, dont blame him for that" and again Foreman grinned happily and continued. Foreman then went MIA though, so the problem resolved itself. Like I had seen a comparison with Foreman earlier this game. Not sure who it was (CM8?). But really. If there is any Foreman equivalent in this game, it is HF. And people are completely willing to let this happen and it fucking annoys me. He loses nothing as town if he drops this ans finally starts answering and caring. But it makes his scum play pretty damn easy when everyone lets it go. And then I see people telling me "but keep HF alive for the first couple of days, lynch him later, he is a great contributor" Seriously, I was doing this with Koshi. But I have no fucking reason to do that with HF. I simply don't see great contributions. What has he actually done this game? Like if you compare the contributions of yourself(Rels), DF, Koshi, Emp to him... Is HF really the guy who can be called a leading contributor? My answer is no. TLDR: ##vote Holyflare To marghell: To answer your interrogation: what I was talking about when I said "he's not hiding behind it" was not the excuses you quoted, but the fact that he called other people scum while doing his "tunnels". In partcular, as I mentionned before, his LS read came out of the blue and I thought it was pretty townie. I'm not 100% convinced he's town but I kinda think he is. I agree that he is underwhelming BUT check any of his scumgames and you'll see that it's not a criteria to decide whether or not HF is scum; he has been considered one of the best scum on this forum for some time for his ability to lead the thread where he wants. Now I'm not saying him playing lazily proves he's not scum, but what I'm saying is him being unmotivated or lazy is very likely due to his outside-the-game mental state and not something he's doing to hide his scuminess, 'cause he's perfectly capable to be super townie as scum. Hm... thanks. I will keep this in mind and see where you are coming from. | ||
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mahrgell
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mahrgell
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On December 03 2016 10:54 Rels wrote: I find this TMI convincing actually, it might be a scumslip if it's confirmed that we're setup 3. SL really used the word "jailkeeped" for no reason You are clearly bad and don't know what tmi means. *HFface* | ||
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mahrgell
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On December 03 2016 19:38 Tictock wrote: Here is the world where Shape/CM8/SL/Onegu are all town. ![[image loading]](https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o85xzEtQs693ln3qM/giphy.gif) You think you are an evil dragon? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
I quickly skimmed over SL, thought my list I did in the night was actually reasonably okay, but my judgement somehow dropped again on him. This list is actually quite damn bad for SL. Bad enough to put him above anyone else. so... ##vote sicklucker About Shlog: Uh... I read his defense now (finally...) looked at the HF questions... and stay puzzled. Honestly I think HFs list is trash. This is not because I believe shlog is somehow magically townconfirmed. To me shlog is coinflip, maybe slightly biased towards scum. But this whole list of "weird stuff" looks more like confirmation bias than anything else. There are a lot of things off with shlog. But this is just completely overblown. If you are not interested in leaving a player wiggle room... Just let it be. If you are asking a player for explanations, give him room to breathe. If anyone really believes in this list of 30 obvious scumslips/contradictions from shlog, I have to question your critical and openminded thinking. And somehow I understand now where shlogs initial post was coming from, where he talked about peoples motivation when reading his defense. It is almost amusing, that exactly what he described there happened later. About HF: honestly, absolutely no motivation to read him. He won't die anyway today, so I'm not doing it. Overall: If you ask me for scumpairs, I would right now lean towards SL-shlog, SL-HF, one of the three + CM8/Onegu. Imho TT is not fully cleared yet, so he is part of my more serious tinfoil variations but we are not there yet. Oh and of course the Emp+DF/Rels evil team of doom possibility should be explored. Of those mentioned. If shlog flips red, I think there is no way HF can be scum though. I also have troubles imagining stuff like SL+TT right now. | ||
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mahrgell
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As I said, I believe shlog is a slightly scumleaning coinflip. I see a way higher probability (even though less than what I had in mind esterday in my first run through) for SL to flip red than SL. So I would prefer to go SL->shlog->HF right now. But well... I simply lack motivation to fight for that right now. If you guys want shlog first. so be it. I can accept it in a way now with shlog not returning, as having him around as a wildcrd later is potentially more dangerous than having SL, who at least gives some material. But this is a general issue I have right now. Basically my mind what to hunts after those players who have material, those who give me reasons to believe they are scum. But at the other hand going into lategame with all those contentless afk's is god damn scary. | ||
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mahrgell
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On December 03 2016 20:56 Rels wrote: Another thing on SL is that he had ZERO town spree, like he usually does in 100% of his town games. When he finds that one stupid (or sometimes crazily good) thing and tunnel on it for posts and posts. Thinking on voting SL over Shape. We'll see what Shape does when he goes back. What do you mean by that? Like SLs meta is still a riddle to me, and the one game linked earlier was absolutely nothing like him in this game. But this game he one post tunneled NU into afk vote and then tunneled DF(I can follow those arguments, just don't agree with them). | ||
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