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On December 01 2016 06:02 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 06:01 mahrgell wrote:On December 01 2016 05:57 Rels wrote:On December 01 2016 05:54 mahrgell wrote:On December 01 2016 05:48 Rels wrote:On November 30 2016 19:53 Holyflare wrote:On November 30 2016 19:45 Koshi wrote:
HF do you think Rels is possible mafia? All I know about rels is that he posted about Marcel and said that he/she was completely different to last game, complained about margarine's approach to the game being wildly different and bad and then voted me for pressuring his read. Margaret doesn't even appear in his scum list at the end of it. I think his read through was bad and achieved nothing, said nothing of note and then he left. He could very well be mafia. Yeah I was suspecting him while catching up, then I read some good posts of him and when I was done catching up I didn't think he was scum anymore. On December 01 2016 05:48 Rels wrote:
And it actually points at me being town more than scum. As scum I don't change my reads for no reason and I push weaker players WTF I just wanted to sit back and watch chess and preventing a mafia burnout. but what is that? Why on earth this urge to point out his own previous clearly makes him town. o.O Gosh, this feels almost too bad to be a scumslip for me. But seriously. WTF? Cause I thought about it. You thought about what? I can't follow. You made your post about me, and then thought about it, and suddenly had this feeling "uhhhh... my thoughts are clearly towny, I should tell the world so they see this too" HF said that me changing my mind about you was scummy I explained what happened in my head Then I pointed out I don't do that as scum
Okay... And I thought Koshis permanent "I can't be scum" was bad...
Also this is so far from the last game we played together... Koshi does this every game from what I see, but I really don't recall this bullshit from you...
It is 1 hour before lynch, you are not getting a single vote and suddenly you have to point out your obvious townieness and start going full defense against everyone?
##unvote NeverUnlucky
##vote Rels
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Grmpf... I'm feeling shit here.
I really hate Rels here. Gimme dayvig and I shoot him on sight. But I somehow feel Rels is a gamble.
And nothing has changed about NU.
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##unvote Rels
##vote NeverUnlucky
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On December 01 2016 06:30 Koshi wrote:
What Rels is doing makes no sense in mafia POV.
Either NU is mafia and he gets himself lynched.
Either NU is town and he gets himself lynched.
Like it's not like he tries to divert to lynch onto somebody else in a sneaky way or something. Or put shit on somebody based on preflip association with NU.
This is the point I'm at. My problem is, that his posts also don't make any sense from town pov. Like it feels completely random.
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On December 01 2016 06:33 Rels wrote:
/ignore HF
Well... I can understand you not wanting to argue with HF... I had my own experiences with that. -.-
At the same time I would still like how your read progression on me went from http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26205962
onwards.
- You called me out for wrong meta.
- called me out again, and added the point about my expectations on HF
- noticed that my expectations on HF were of a wrong premise, so dropped that
- summarized that I was null (at least I did not show up as town or scumlean there)
Why you dropped the point about my meta being wrong?
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On December 01 2016 06:35 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 06:33 mahrgell wrote:On December 01 2016 06:30 Koshi wrote:
What Rels is doing makes no sense in mafia POV.
Either NU is mafia and he gets himself lynched.
Either NU is town and he gets himself lynched.
Like it's not like he tries to divert to lynch onto somebody else in a sneaky way or something. Or put shit on somebody based on preflip association with NU. This is the point I'm at. My problem is, that his posts also don't make any sense from town pov. Like it feels completely random. Hmm. I am not currently with my head 100% in the game but is he not just catching up? He said something, people got offended, and that's it? Was he pushing an agenda? I don't think so.
Uhm, no I don't think he was pushing an agenda. Then again, I'm not feeling agendas with anyone yet. Like my udgement on NU is also based on his lack of town play.
And I simply can't stand those "Look, I can't be scum" posts. And this one was completely uncalled for. Like I can never, and I really mean NEVER envision myself posting some read... And then firing another post behind telling everyone how this last post just btw obv makes me town.
What makes me so confused though is, that as scum I would probably do posts, and afterwards think about that post made me look... But even as scum I wouldn't post it. Like... no.
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On December 01 2016 06:41 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2016 06:38 Koshi wrote:On December 01 2016 06:31 Holyflare wrote:
Wtf are you talking about "one post".
You quite categorically stated that his play was entirely different from his last town game.
My entire point on you is that you disliked his play, you disliked his posts and then he's not a town read but your vote ended up on me. This vote is bull shit because:
A) the post you voted me for was AGREED BY THE PERSON IT WAS TARGETED TO as being correct. So your whole post and point was useless as shit.
B) I am pushing the one target that you thought was playing completely different to his town game.
I don't believe you come in the game and vote a person that is pushing someone you should believe is mafia from your own posts.
You then return and basically flat out lie saying that Margo was looking good for a massive logical post but he wasn't even anything other than null for you after it.
Basically you either town read him because of it and then your vote on me makes sense but then your list is a lie or you null/scum read him and my posts and aggression on him makes perfect sense and was good because you should be scum reading him and not pushing me due to him being well different from his town game. The vote on you kinda made sense for me as well. Like.. I see how it was illogical. But I also know that at that point in the game I also wanted to vote you. It makes sense for you because you were pushing mafia agenda and already disliked the tone of my early posts. It doesn't make sense for a guy that is watching me push someone that should be his scum read.
woah? So you are calling Koshi+Rels as scum team, and also accept the NU kill? Game solved?
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3 players not voting. Uhm... lol.
Add TT "I dont have any time at all, lets jump on the maintrain, im out"
Anyway... I will really calm down for now. I need some rest from this game. I will continue reading though and then make up my mind on whatever the flip brings... Will probably post after chess is done.
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Good morning!
From reading it seems there is nothing ultra urgent...
So I guess I just start diving, putting stuff in place and make list posts ^.^ I have some feelings right now, but I have to check if they are more than just feelings.
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Okay, I skip list posts for now, I have a player I want to talk about first ^.^ I guess this will end as a full filter analysis.
Rels:
With some distance I feel my rage at him was probably not reasonable in that dimension... Even though this post that started it still disturbs me highly.
Similarly I can accept his reasoning for his mind change on me earlier. I can see this to be a townish progression.
Then again for both incidents the scum interpretation is also copletely on the table for me, so let's call this null and not relevant.
But even if I try to blend that out, I can't really give much positive to Rels at this point.
Let's simply go through his interaction with NU
+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2016 07:17 Rels wrote:
OK I'm caught up.
I think LS Koshi and DF are town.
I think I wanna lynch one of HF TT Onegu and SL.
Rest are null.
His first summary. NU is seemingly null.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2016 07:42 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 07:40 Koshi wrote:On November 30 2016 07:37 Rels wrote:TIME T1: Onegu says something On November 29 2016 09:44 Onegu wrote:
Also what happend to SL he said hi to me then just bounced... TIME T2 a few hours later: SL posts something On November 29 2016 13:24 sicklucker wrote:On November 29 2016 09:18 Tictock wrote:
Oh right, the whole Koshi vs Onegu thing.
I will prob ignore any and all of that just like Calix vs NU. tru me too .townie TIME T3 another few hours alter: SL reacts to what Onegu says on T1 On November 29 2016 17:30 sicklucker wrote:
and onegu why you getting mad for sayin hi to you. there was 2 posts in the thread not worth my time to stick around ;p So that shows he read the game before posting at T3. So that means that (1) he read the whole thread but didn't tryhard to gain townieness from it and (2) posted randomly in the thread wihtout following it at all at T2, which you tend to not do as scum. I guess ? It sounded better in my head. I can see what you want to say. I as mafia was always very aware of that indeed. But it is not good enough atm for sl. Do you like NU? No apart from his big post which was townie.
Less than half an hour later, this is his first post really mentioning NU. So he didn't like NU (except for one post) but didnt feel like digging into it? Why? This would be easier for me to understand, if he was entirely focussed on his scumlist from the previously quoted post. But between those while, he also investigated HF and SL, ha also went after TT and DF, pointing out their possible scum tells. Why did he point out what disturbs him about those 2 neut reads, but you have to explicitly ask him after NU who is seemingly in the same pile?
Okay, with him not talking about NU, let's look what happened instead:
He starts a train on HF.
Now when I read this from his filter, this confused me a bit as I had to look for reasons on why he want after HF here.
Besides his previously mentioned list post, he pointed out two things:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2016 06:53 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 00:04 Holyflare wrote:
Your opinion on me shouldn't be anything other than null btw. I haven't done much but you should certainly agree that your NU reads are wishy washy useless crap and it is excellent to be called out for that when you yourself didn't even "realise". This is such a bad post. First, his read was "minor scumlean for that, but I hope he steps up". Second, he obviously won't think his NU read is scummy if he's town SINCE HE S TOWN. Third, you've played enough to know that it's normal to tend to scumread people that scumread you. On November 30 2016 07:20 Rels wrote:HF I hated that one post I quoted earlier. Rest of filter is meaningless. Actually this post is him further going deep down to a pointless argument, which doesn't show the "HF gamesense" Koshi was tlaking about at some point. Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 00:51 Holyflare wrote:
I find it hard to believe that the discrepancy I've outlined has gone over your head. Your retort of mockery just furthers my conviction.
If I have to enlighten the dim witted then I shall. The discrepancy is quite clearly that the only questions you ask are targeted at your town reads, who you should be the least wary of, and none to your scum reads, who should naturally be the inverse.
I'm not sure about the first one. I, for completely unbiased reasons, can understand what he is trying to say here and think it is true. But imho the only conclusion from that should be that HFs points are moot and he should calm down. Not sure how this really points to him being scum.
So this leaves us with the second one. Lack of HF-gamesense. Mhhh. This doesn't feel much stronger than his stuff against TT, who was not even on his scumlist. This sudden push feels a bit random. But hey, pushing randomly D1 is a valid strat! And pushing HF out of his tunnel, ignoring 11 out of 13 players... Not necessarily bad. But slowly I feel like I have to bend myself even more and more to make his actions align with town, while I can rather easily see those from scum.
But let's continue. He continues talking about DF and TT.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2016 07:59 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 07:57 Koshi wrote:
This NU guy is so disconnected from the thread. Quite hilarious. Liking him even less each time he posts
A post about NU! Cool. He really doesn't like NU. Doesn't cause any action though. He stays on his HF stuff.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2016 08:13 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 08:07 Holyflare wrote:On November 30 2016 06:53 Rels wrote:On November 30 2016 00:04 Holyflare wrote:
Your opinion on me shouldn't be anything other than null btw. I haven't done much but you should certainly agree that your NU reads are wishy washy useless crap and it is excellent to be called out for that when you yourself didn't even "realise". This is such a bad post. First, his read was "minor scumlean for that, but I hope he steps up". Second, he obviously won't think his NU read is scummy if he's town SINCE HE S TOWN. Third, you've played enough to know that it's normal to tend to scumread people that scumread you. First point isn't even a point, I clearly said I should be null and not a scum lean. Second point, I never said it was scummy in this post. Your reading comprehension led to that but what it is saying is that Margarine is calling me a scum lean for not pointing out anything despite pointing out things that Margarine thinks before he/she thinks them. Third, irrelevant and does not apply in the context of getting someone to do something productive that breaks them out of their mould by antagonising them slightly. Either way, don't expect much from me. Voting me isn't going to make me magically more productive. It's weird that you checked out the votes before catching up ? ANd this doesn't convince me. 1) slight scumlean but hope for the better isn't very different from null. 2) then replace "scummy" by "suspicous" or whatever you meant. 3) I'm not arguing that, I'm saying I don't like you stating two times that marhgell should understand your argument against him and not scumlean you, when it's the normal reaction to have.
Like again, I understand every post he makes here. But is that justifying a vote on HF? Especially given his arguments against TT and NU? And if he is really going after HF, this is damn half assed. But hey, there are others pushing that train now!, why get your hands dirty.
Next he disappears until deadline. Comes back, makes the post I hated earlier. Then feels the need to point out how he doesn't like TT (again, this is entirely valid, but it feels so out of place with his actions). Gets into a fight with HF and me (okay, he isn't to blame for that one ^^) States that he has to decide between HF and NU, as both are scummy, finally agrees on NU.
Agreeing on NU did nothing, NU was dead anyway. Why not go after HF? He didn't drop his suspicion on HF, he ust concluded that both are scummy. Create movement, force at least something out of HF. Force people to position themselves. If you feel the choice is between 2 scum, anything that comes from it can only help town.
TLDR
- his arguments mostly made sense when isolated and I can agree on many
- When analyzing the progression, targeting, vote actions etc, things become odd
--- To view everything from a Town!Rels point of view and make sense of it, I feel like I have to make so many assumptions to somehow get everything in. Unfocused, unmotivated and several mind twists etc. Those assumptions also don't fit my impression from him from our last game.
--- If I view everything from a Scum!Rels point of view, I do not really have to do that. Stuff is straight forward.
- his complete ignorance towards NU, even though he pointed out his dislike whenever he did mention him, is staggering
- his EoD actions are at best wasted chances for town, if what he posted were his thoughts. Well... or we take the easier interpretation.
- oh, I still hate his one post, you know which one ^.^
---
Conclusion: Right now, I really scumlean Rels quite hard. I feel like I could WIFOM myself out by always saying "but scumrels would pay more attention, yadayada". The problem I really have is to make him town I have to do that A LOT. way too much. To make him scum... this play is perfectly in line.
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Okay... I would really want some opinion on Rels at this point...
To quickly go over the 3 players who started the NU lynch.
Emp: I said earlier, I 100% can't see him vs NU be MvM. I quickly glanced at that interaction again, but yeah... He is probably the lockiest locktown in this game for me right now.
Koshi: townlean - Why only lean? I said earlier, it felt to me like he was fishing for assistance against NU, now this is a strong town tell. Still, this does not invalidate my general concerns about him.It just puts more protown arguments on the pile. Like if this high effort bus play is in someones scum range, it is probably Koshi. Maybe I just have trust issues... ^.^ If I'm at lylo with Koshi, I would probably vote him. But until then I accept him as town.
SL: The antithesis to Koshi. He did nothing all day, declared a bunch of people being scum, voted NU, went offline again for the rest of the day, then victory paraded on NUs grave for his own brilliant "read". Erm... yeah. If he is scum, this is really the lowest effort bus ever. Like I have really troubles on giving him any town cred for it. He didn't do anything here. But when I look at it from a scum perspective, it puzzles me even more.
I would really like to know from ppl who played with him before, if this kind of shit bus is in his scumrange or not.
Personally I honestly tend towards him being a terrible/utterly lazy townie who played blind roulette and won and now celebrates. I know that SL has experience, but the alternative to this interpretation is an even more terrible scum, who decided to bus his team mate, completely forgot that when bus you usually don't want your mate dead or at least get town cred for it, but managed to kill his mate and not get anything from it.
TLDR:
Emp: TOWNIEST TOWN EVER
Koshi: the stuff on NU was either very good town play, or a deliberate attempt at the play of the year as scum, which i eel he would be able to, but the easier solution is to attempt it was good town play for now
SL: his stuff on NU was either bad(but lucky) town play or completely awful scum play. Both interpretations are way below what I expected from a player from his experience, but I tend to the first interpretation.
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Grmpf... I wish this was the setup with the vig... Needs to reduce the player list faster... I feel like im writing for eternities, and still only 4/11 covered...
I will try to dive through the remaining 7 too... But those are players I have currently no feeling, so this needs more elaborated dives...
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Thanks for reminding me to read NUs filter again.
MOAR FILTERS!
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Okay, regarding NUs filter, ignoring the later parts
- overall he looked completely overwhelmed by being scum ^^
- makes me more inclined to think LS is town, if he was scum and they decided the day by battling, okay, but this does not align with NUs later post shyness.
- points out a contradiction with CM8, but way less followup than with LS. This post almost seems more directed at LS (as the contradiction is about the stance of CM8 towards LS) Not sure here. At one hand it feels like a cheap shot at a newbie town, on the other hand I would expect a shellshocked NU to probably use this chance to push a newbie more. Maybe I get a clearer opinion once I read CM8s filter again. (that should be quick...)
- interacts with Koshi shortly over CM8. The easy explanation is Koshi is town, the difficult one is Koshi is a scum mastermind, tried to give NU a chance to look good, was not pleased, decided to do the super play. Let's stick with the easy one ^.^
- interacts with me: CLEARLY MAKES ME TOWN!!! okay... not doing that. I leave the analysis of myself to others 
- his opinion on Onegu is inconclusive imho... not reading anything int that. He was forced to say something about Onegu, he did say something.
- he joins up with HF on me. Not sure what to make of this.
- there are 2 players he sidejabs from time to time: TT&SL For both he seems to paint them bad without any real reasoning. Just like random "I don't like this guy for whatever" I'm really not sure how to judge this. Common mafia knowledge tells us, that scum should keep one scumbuddy among their townleans, one among their scumleans. Is he using common mafia knowledge here? Then either TT or SL would be scum. Is it really that easy? Like I somehow believe in a minimum standard of play on this site and right now I try to imagine scum QT in the SL scum case:
NU: Hey guys, I really have no clue what to post. Oh yeah, I did some list posts, mentioned you as scumlean SL, nothing personal.
SL: + Show Spoiler + -> afk brb in 40 hours
Well... and TT went completely missing, but I haven't reread his filter yet.
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The Axis of Not-Voting
CM8 There is nothing to say about this guy. Newb carding, completely noncommittal, way to shy, MIA. All that makes him Null, but also not useful for town at all. If there is a lack of targets for the lynch, he can clearly be killed. Has to step up massively.
Shlog Rereading his filter, I can understand all the stuff brought against him so far. One thing I noticed is him pointing out LS though, which fits with NU initially targeting LS. Not sure if this is coincidence or coordinated smear.
I somehow wish I would have read his filter without reading the cases here though. Well... vote is far away, for now he is scummy, but I wanna read it with a fresh mind during D2 again. And maybe there is more to read then.
LS Interaction with NU makes him my #2 town behind emp. Luckily it will never get to a lylo with my, LS and Emp so I don't have to choose one! But hey, connfirming yourself town (or being confirmed) is nice, but not the goal of the game! Could you join the work please?
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Uhm... I need a break... Back later... HF, Onegu, DF, TT left to do ^.^
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On December 01 2016 21:45 Rels wrote:
NU is a spew robot LOL. This game is over
Uhm, what I get from him or kinda townspews. But I still lack the scumspews. So who are your two topscums right now? Shlog and?
You said it is not really SL's meta to bus, so who else? One of the inactives? TT? CM8?
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On December 01 2016 22:28 LightningStrike wrote:Also Sicklucker had shown he can bus a teammate if needed i nthe past. He bussed his partner HTS in Void here was his filter there granted it was a while ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/475749-the-void-mafia?user=sickluckerAlso now I just remembered who rolled mafia like 10 times in a row or something like that and I think Koshi played with him. Chairman Ray the guy who rolled mafia the most in a row on this site. Found this while looking at past games of sicklucker and checked the post of one of the games.
How representative is that game? It doesn't even feel like I'm reading the same player -.-
Or: how representative is this game here from him? Has he ever slacked this hard? As town or scum?
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On December 01 2016 22:50 Rels wrote:
We're sorry, but the post you're trying to make is over 100000 characters long. No one wants to read that much text! If you think you have a valid reason for wanting to make a post this big, bring this issue up in the Website Feedback forum. (Note: if you're doing a copy/paste from somewhere else, just summarize and link to the original source.)
LOL
Did you try to C+P an entire game?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://media1.giphy.com/media/fjp4q4E3o443S/200.gif)
