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On December 04 2016 00:42 Holyflare wrote:
Not voting (4): Onegu, emperorchampion, Shapelog, Checkm8
Please vote random people. Also, mar why have you voted everyone but shape today when he's done nothing?
If shape returns right at deadline I'm not going to believe a word of his btw. That would be way too opportune.
Not in the mood for doing long answers, so you will have to do with a short one:
But as I recall it from mind:
- didnt want to post in the evening after the EoN. Skimmed through thread, got mad at total inactivity and sitting-through-shlog-lynch-day mentality. Also dropped the wot on you. If I would give scumprobabilities, I would have given you probably around 60%, same about shlog. I think I detailed in my wot on you, why I gave you the vote over shlog. Basically I voiced my concerns regarding you often, you refused to even try to remove those, so I can not give you any benefit of doubt. Differently shlog had promised to contribute, and I really hoped this would allow for proper judgement.
I also indeed hoped this would spark some more actitivity. SL posted while I wrote my stuff, but I was too tired to read through it and decided to deal with that later. At this point SL was probably about 40% scum for me.
- chimed in in the morning, I read SLs stuff. It felt absolutely terrible. At this point, he was like 90% scum to me. Or closer to 95% Easy vote.
- came back later, wanted to answer DFs questions... I actually did some posts, then wanted to do the full post analysis. But when rereading SLs filter, I actually suddenly felt way less secure than before. Like in my mind he was way more terrible than what I read now. There were still a number of flaws, but I felt like I was too emotionally charged (not only regarding SL) to properly play with a calm head. So I unvoted.
- came back again this morning... Honestly I lost most motivation to play, still went over it. While I felt I went overboard with my "badness assumption" on SL in the first post, the second post was almost too gentle. Especially the later points were very bad. Also I read shlogs defense, realizing that shlogs reads may never come. Shlogs defense had some appeal to me. Not in the sense of convincing me, but in the way he approached it. As you noticed my preference for a certain playstyle you make figure out why. Still... in the end, this was mostly WIFOM. Basically I can see a clear path how honest RL-troubled town-shlog would come to where he is right now. And I can see good pathes how scumshlog would come to the same situation. Basically his defense changed almost nothing for me with regards to my opinion on his day1. But this is also why I usually insist on content and reads instead of defense, unless I want to know motivations where I have troubles finding them. So Shlog remains in this same spot, SL looks worse to me, SL is voted.
- I just skimmed what happened since then... I honestly don't see a reason to change any of the points/opinions I made. It feels like finally more people are willing to reconsider SL though. Hell, even you did a 180. Only yesterday you were still yelling at me because I called out shlog and you called me and my reasoning shit. Welcome to the other side.
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Also I may want to explain something, that is generally conflicting in my mind. Especially as this is an issue never arising in RL mafia. The idea of lynching afk or near-afk players.
I really hate lynching people for lack of activity. Basically I would lynch them when I run out of active players I want to lynch. This at least was my original mindset. But here is where the conflict arises, and I'm sure there is a meta consensus on the topic, but I'm simply not aware of it. I figured, that having those empty sheets in lategame is even worse than doing "contentless" lynches in early game. I so far had only looked at it from the "now perspective". In this you want to lynch people because you have reason to distrust them. I simply never looked further.
Sadly I still haven't completely got my head around it how it plays out and I simply have no grasp yet how the correct play is. If everyone is telling me that killing an suspected afk is better than killing a more suspected active player... I will have to accept this, until I have come to my own final conclusion.
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I say I dont want to do long answers... And then I start typing... deep down im an addict and a masochist.
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anyway... there was another post from HF directed at me...
to lazy to search for it, so again you will have to deal with me writing from my mind and I apologize in advance that the text again is way too long... But I simply lack the ability to order my thoughts as I write right now, so I just write it off as it comes to mind.
It was about why I think your list of "questions" regarding SL is not leading anywhere (lets try to improve on tone here...) This answer again will give you a look into my approach to the game. I think it is by now crystalclear that we will not agree on this topic. But honestly I think there is place for both in the game. And I think the last Newbiegame was a good example for that. (but everyone wanted to kill me first, because I decided to play differently...)
I already touched this in my previous post, and so did I in the original post you reponded to:
Basically all the stuff Shlog wrote D2 are insanely subjective. I can easily take everything at face value and believe it. And I can easily see him doing this completely out of thin air and then spin some idea in my mind how evil shlog is sitting behind his computer and fools us all (except that he gets lynched, it seems... masterplan failed^^)
The point with your list though is, that you decided to completely tunnel down on the second interpretation. There is no room left. Why I think this is not leading anywhere and suboptimal is for multiple reasons:
Finding scum interpretations for peoples actions is usually really easy. Some people love claiming "I would never do that as scum", but basically this ends to be almost always as WIFOM. So you locking in into on out of many possible scum!shlog interpretations feels simply bad. If you believe it and you are town, than I have to tell you that you should leave your tunnel and open your mind more. If you don't believe it and just want to pressure, it is still bad, but I get to that in a moment. And well... if you are scum, I now could make up an interpretation on how this makes sense... But then we are back to the beginning of this argument.
Secondly, if you decide to go with this overload attack... This makes only sense if you are completely locked on killing the target. You can not really expect anyone to properly answer this. It is simply not possible. You made up an interpretation, which may or may not be correct (and it not being correct does not make shlog town btw, he can still be scum but doing things for completely different reasons) and now you want him to do what?
There is absolutely no point in argueing with people about their scum motivations. They can answer anything, the correct answer could be anything. What makes sense is talking about their town motivations. Town doesnt have the same luxury as scum here. If a townie honestly answers on his motivations and why he did what he did and why he thinks he is helping town... This can be judged. And you may accept it or not. TT is such a case... He had a lot of strange actions. If I wanted, I could now do a huge case on him, using the style you used, lock an interpretation on how all his play makes sense as Scum.TT. But from all his answers he has given, I can also make a case on him being town. This is why he ends up as Neut. There is a small lean, which wobbles back and fourth in the TT case, as my personal judgement on which is more likely comes in though.
In contrast we have to look at SL: I really have huge issues with ever finding a logical town explanation for his play. I originally said that it feels like he is shitting up intentionally. I had troubles finding concrete examples, but when reading him I was not the only one who voiced this feeling. Now the issue why I had him on Neut before D2 was that while I had real troubles finding a town interpretation for his actions, the same was true for finding a scum interpretation which is not completely outlandish... But well... this feeling that he intentionally shits up the thread... It really doesnt even fit in any town interpretation. So all thats left is this, even though rather difficult for me to understand, scum interpretation of his actions.
(which btw really confuses me, as just again the argument was brought "but yeah, this is too obv to be scum" I agree on it... problem is just it does not fit at all to town... It is not like certain weird reads or tunnels or mislynches or timing patterns or setup misreads...)
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On December 04 2016 05:07 Rels wrote:
mahrgell I understand the dilemna you're bringing up. The answer to this is just lynching the scummiest dude. Now activity can be a alignment indicator, but it should be just that - between a inactive scumlean and a super active scumread we should lynch the scumread.
then SL it is...
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On December 04 2016 05:15 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +I just skimmed what happened since then... I honestly don't see a reason to change any of the points/opinions I made. It feels like finally more people are willing to reconsider SL though. Hell, even you did a 180. Only yesterday you were still yelling at me because I called out shlog and you called me and my reasoning shit. Welcome to the other side. Also just to correct you, this didn't happen. I have maintained Shapelog is mafia since the first time I've mentioned him and haven't changed it. I have also had sl as my second top mafia if shape isn't mafia. I can dislike your points because they don't make someone mafia but I can independently think the same person is mafia possibly. Show nested quote +On December 02 2016 02:40 Holyflare wrote:
My lynch pool/order is:
Shape
Sl if shape is town, off list completely if mafia
Checkm8
Rels (confirmed town)
Onegu I mean you complain and whine at me all game but here we are again where you're saying what I've already said but after me 
I will just let you believe that if it makes you feel better.
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I wouldn't blame anyone for not reading the last ones.
But people asked for stuff and with me not in shape to give a structured answer this is all I can give them 
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On December 04 2016 05:44 Holyflare wrote:
I stopped reading when you said "maybe you wrote it to pressure shaoelog but then it's still bad"
I did the same thing to darthfoley about 4 times and he responded excellently and is now a strong town read. What about my questions were hard to answer at all?
I'm not in the mood to argue about that. Can we agree we disagree?
I could now write another wot twice that size, but this leads us nowhere.
I have honestly not the feeling you are at all interested in understanding me but you just want to win an argument. Fine, call yourself the winner.
If your great victory is only there to serve your feeling of superiority, so be it. Doesn't mean I will now suddenly start to accept your self proclaimed leadership though.
If you conclude from this, that I obv must be scum, okay. If all your arguments are based on this, I even promise I have no intention at all to defend against it.
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On December 04 2016 05:51 darthfoley wrote:
Yea tbh mahrgell I feel like you need to find a way to be more concise in your post. I understand you have much to say but I can't imagine that you would have this much to say when barely anything new is happening. This is kind of a minor point though because more activity is better than less. I understand when casing people that you need to write a lot, but much of your writing and WoT today revolves around HF who isn't even top 2/3 right not for lynches. It's just hard for me to motivate myself to read all of it when it's not even relevant to the lynch
Those posts were entirely for HFs questions. I dont think anybody else needs to read them. As I said, I'm not in the mood/shape to write more structured right now.
The moment I will write game relevant stuff again, I will try to do better.  Those posts imho weren't. All they were aiming for was to somehow settle with HF. This failed. So be it.
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On December 04 2016 05:55 Holyflare wrote:
I don't think you're mafia at all and perhaps that's where the problem lies.
You are the one thinking THAT I am mafia and all this time I'm flinging things in your face explaining myself, my actions and everything and you're treating it like some inane thing and never re-evaluating. It's incredibly frustrating when everyone else in the game sees it. You criticise me as being tunneled but here we are with no reconsideration.
a) no, I dont think you are lockscum. And I never said this. You are not even my most likely scum. Because then you would get my vote.
b) you wrote all kinds of stuff, but you never adressed really the issue I have with you. And with that I have no reason to give you more town status. Why have you such troubles accepting this? Obviously nobody shares my mindset. Are you only happy if everyone lies in front of you and wishes to kiss your feet? If you believe my arguments to be completely bullshit, so be it. As long as everyone else thinks so too you are completely fine here and can put me away as crazy.
Make the best out of it. Like take it as scumbait "There is this crazy dude, who always wants to go after me. This certainly makes no sense, but he is nuts. But the moment someone joins him... THAT guy must be scum!"
And really, I do not think anyone but you at this point is interested in this conversation. If there is anything shitting up the thread, it is us 2. So this will be my last post in the regard.
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On December 04 2016 06:01 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 05:59 sicklucker wrote:On November 30 2016 00:23 NeverUnlucky wrote:On November 30 2016 00:01 mahrgell wrote:On November 29 2016 23:55 NeverUnlucky wrote:
#526
5) and 6) mostly reflect my thoughts on both these players. However, I really don't like this: "Fuck it, I guess I leave [LS] to people who can judge him better until I have seen more from him to form a more conclusive opinion. " It comes back to HF's point re: dedicating a post to someone and not having a clear opinion on them.
On that note, you still have no read on me despite liking the points that were made against me and claiming I am the one you have the most meta with.
Also, fucking stop calling me "controversial" and whatnot. COntroversial most in the sense that you are among the most suspected players in this game. Deal with it. And about not having a read, I think I explained why. Because I feel that what you write in this game, and what others call you out for makes you look scummish in isolation. If I add back the meta, it makes you look townish. So back to square 0. But I don't see much point in argueing about that. I have nothing to add to the allegations against you and it is up to you if you feel you defended enough against those. If you don't feel like they are worth commenting more, just share more good stuff about other players. Like what are your opinions on HF, SL, emp, TT and LS? The allegations as you put it are that I made stuff out of thin air (emp and checkmate) which I debunked, that my post on LS was tainted by the fact that I had a pre-made conclusion on him which is a blatant shade-throw for someone who claims to have no read on me (emp), and that I'm losing ppl with my train of thought (Shape, you). (And a point that emp misunderstood) No example/explanation for the first, shade for the second, and my arguments being too IQ demanding for the third. That's my "case". Here are my reads: TOWNDFKoshi LEAN-TCheckmate Onegu LEAN-SCUMEC TT ?? SL HF's point on you is something I agree with. Like I told you in the noobers game, you don't interact with peoplez enough which makes you look unnatural, not transparent which is a mafia trait. I don't have anything to lean either way on him though. SL has been useless and not in a funny Grack/Superbia way, so he can be scum-leaned until he starts moving his ass. emp, I don't understand how anyone could town-read him. His serious posts after his trolling were about me, and as I mentioned above, one of them was a misunderstanding and the other one had no evidence on why I was making shit up and contained something I perceive as a shade-throw because he doesn't even scum-read me. TT seems uninterested by the game :3 I'm thinking it could be NAI because he was willing to give Onegu his spot in the pre-game which would show that he is not that interested in the game, so it's kind of a moot point. LS, I despised his first post, but I enjoy his attitude in this game. Tone doesn't sound maf. He's null for me now. Lol he has df as his top town for literraly no reason. Just like he had me at the bottom even tho he was talking about 5 other players. He didnt mention df in his filter before this just like me. Knowing im fucking town and he put me at the bottom. This is just more proof to me that darth is his partner I have the opposite conclusion on that. Scum don't put their partners top town for no reason
Honestly I think this is pretty WIFOM. Like everybody knows, that scum does not, so scum does, and reverse.
I think there are other good arguments to believe DF to be town though. Even though the DF train of thought from SL is something I can follow, I just dont agree.
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I think voting check is redundant. And even if you dont want to play around modkills, it seems like the majority here believes shlog to be more likely to be scum than CM8
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On December 04 2016 06:27 sicklucker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 06:26 darthfoley wrote:On December 04 2016 06:06 sicklucker wrote:
Acualy shit where is darth I need to know about your last game with mu. He was either trying to pocket you or your his partner. His filter is so fucknig weird. He never gives his reason why your town. But he lists you as his top town. He has legitmate reasons to call people town in his filter. But for you he just Lists you at the top and its never brought up again. you barely interact and you have zero interaction before he town reads you.
Darth gimme cliffs of your relationship in your last game with him Pretty sure it was the initial stages of buddying especially because I thought early game was town NU. Lat game I played with him was weird because he and calix were assholes to each other TvT the whole game, though I was more in the Calix supporter camp did you play a good town game in it?
Imho he did. But the game ended D2 with Skynx rolling over and not defending to a N1 case and his teammate getting modkilled for being afk.
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Oh lol... I forgot there is no silence period during at EoD... But looks like I wasnt alone with that. :D
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Uhm... Even if SL is scum ... We need to find a second one. And unless it is Onegu, this means there is at least one active scum...
I guess it is time for filter dives... after sleeping.
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On December 04 2016 07:17 sicklucker wrote:
Alright from now on im playing solo
I thought there are 2 scum
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On December 04 2016 07:27 sicklucker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 07:26 darthfoley wrote:On December 04 2016 07:16 sicklucker wrote:
"sicklucker spent all day trying to convince everyone im mafia but he never tried to change the vote"
Darthfoley -2016 You spent all day trying to claim I was mafia, only to backtrack on that claim like an hour before EoD. Your accusation of me was basically OMGUS to everyone who asked about it and said that it was "sooooo obvious" So no, that's not actually trying to change the vote. Why the fuck would I backtrack as mafia onto a town that was obv getting modkilled... wut
Why the hell would you do that as town?
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On December 04 2016 07:30 sicklucker wrote:
why would I backtrack at all. Did you not see how i looked into nm;s filter and saw he may have spewed you town.
Im fucking mafia if shapelog flips town or mafia.
im fucking mafia if my reads stay the same or change
Like screw this im jailkeeper mafia kill me town does not deserve to win
The point was, that it does not make any sense at all to ever do this, as town or as mafia. Which leads to the conclusion you were just shitting up instead of "seriously trying to change the vote".
And well... You may wanna tell us who you JK'ed then N1. Because this would be a locktown...
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On December 04 2016 07:35 Holyflare wrote:
Hw jkd me obviously. Hey it's me your lockk twon
Yeah, I already noticed you two have something for each other
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But back to more serious business though... We probably should not spend the next 72 hours with this troll discussion only... It is serious filter diving time.
This should not change the lynch, but we really need to find the second one. And we need Onegu to come back... having him as wildcard is kinda scary...
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EPT![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Hlvwab19vuth4Sk/giphy.gif)
