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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
I've been browsing TL since 2010, rarely post. I've never played mafia before in any form, but I just watched all the VoDs of the dota-2 mafia LAN, so I have a very basic understanding of the game. I have work tomorrow and the day after, but should be very active during my non-work hours. I'd love to get a coach, but I'm confident to play without one | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 27 2016 08:49 Alur wrote: Hi boys! First mafia game anywhere ever for me, should be fun. Got interested from watching the Dota 2 community mafia streams. Also casually ghosted a few of the recent games on TL. My observations as of right now: 1. Shapelog is the most scummy player to me. Reason A: Announcing you have some sort of tell on a player(noon), before he has even posted seems like a really bad idea. If hes mafia he can now attempt to replicate his his VT play from "the last two games", and even if he doesn't do "the tell" he'll be more prepared to defend himself from Shapelog. Reason B: He was the first to bring up the possible setups. Before the game started I considered if there would be any merit for town to discuss setups on D1, and I concluded that talking about it before anyone had claimed anything would be probably be useless. Bringing up useless stuff doesn't further the town agenda. Although the fact that he's done all this so fast is a little confusing. 2. Slight townread on _MexicanAlien. He seems to have a genuine interest in solving the game. Didn't know that mafia knows the setup (could be WIFOM I guess, but whatevs). 3. Slight mafiaread on Darthfoley I would've expected him to be more excited about rolling town considering his previous game. His posting also feels a little casual and uninvested at times: Going forward: Talk about other players. Not sure what you're referring to, very curious to hear what you've noticed. Nice dude, this is my first ever game as well, I also got super interested after binge watching "The Town" with dota personalities. Anyway, relative to the game, Sorry for not posting until now, I was out socializing for Australia Day, then had a graveyard shift at work, and only just got back / read through everything. I don't have any major reads, mostly since I haven't slept in about 36 hours and can't put a coherent thought together. I'll definitely re-read the thread more carefully after I've had a decent sleep and post some more transparent observations, but for now I'll just be lurking. If anyone wants to direct some questions at me feel free. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 27 2016 22:42 Shapelog wrote: I don't like how this guy only post says that he has reasons to lurk and asking other people to give him questions. Idk, It might be town hearted because he seems to have good reasons to lurk for right now. Still if this guy doesn't post anything make sure you keep a eye on him, as i will be. As I said, I got very little sleep for a long time, and was very busy. I'm here now, I'm fresh, and I'm going to re-read the whole thread. Expect me to post my reads within 2-3 hours | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
Sorry for any weird formatting issues, the lack of direct quotes, and general rambly-ness of my post, I'm writing from a phone and having a hell of a time getting it all done. READS with explanations (mostly): + Show Spoiler + PepperMintTea Never played forum, but has played in real-life / online, so at least somewhat experienced. Points out a lot of flaws in people's arguments, times that they've said things that are weak / make little sense. Constantly asking for more information, where people got certain ideas, and asks hard-hitting questions. PMT is one of my top town reads, either that or very good mafia, and I'm being taken for a ride, but based on their lack of forum experience, I'd say PMT is just good town. Tumbleweed looks like this is his first game, or one of his first, went very pro-active early, maybe a bit over-aggressive on the scum calls, but started making more town reads later on. I don't know, comes off as bad town trying too hard, or bad mafia to me, i'm not experienced enough to tell the difference. If I had to give a solid answer, I'd say he's bad town who changed his mind a bit too often in an attempt to get reactions out of people, falling over himself trying to avoid being mis-lynched. JesusIncarnate Very few posts (I know, he still has more than I do) Posts he has made haven't been very constructive at all. He's coming off as extremely arrogant, enough so that it's got to be some sort of act, because there's no way someone's going to say "I am a Mafia Grandmaster", "speak to me with respect, I deserve it, i am above you" unless they're putting it on, and I mean, look at that name. Only constructive information he's given to town is calling out Eden for supposedly falling for a simple strat. My read is that jesus is an unhelpful town, who has annoying posts to read- 'sick meme' 'residentsleeper' Jesus, why are you putting such a big target on your back for someone to attack you? what do you gain? Alur Seems like good town to me. He's intent on solving the game, asks questions, answers questions asked of him, Isn't going crazy trying to turn people on one another, or attacking anyone too hard. He seems to be frustrated at my lack of posting, understandable, I would be too. Sorry about that. I like Alurs posts, He's towney, he's not obnoxious, he doesn't seem like he's putting on any sort of act. He also posted "Gonna play some dota or cs to relax". You KNOW someone's taking the game seriously when they swap to dota of all games to chill out. Kuragari Reationary to other people's posts, hasn't posted much in the way of solving the game, just spoke to other players. He did say he wouldn't go into reads until later in the first day, but for someone with quite a few posts, not much has been said. Not enough information on the guy to make a proper judgement. Slightly scummy, not enough to vote on. darthfoley Very town, posted a lot of constructive things, good attitude. I'm on a phone so it's hard to quote everything I want to touch on, but my number 1 town spot goes to this guy. He posts a lot and is vocal about his reads, and backs them up with other posts. I think he'll be useful to town later on, and if we have a doctor, you should consider putting this guy on your save list. nooniansoong My read is good-town, asks some good questions, spots inconsistencies, doesn't hop on other people's scum reads and back them up, tries to dissect them and point out any flaws, good for getting more information. Trfel Scum read, has a whole lot of posts just asking questions without contributing any information, a whole lot of words with not much to say. Jumped on the voting for tumbleweed bandwagon simply because it's embarrassing the newbies caught tumble, and not Trfel himself? (Am I missing something here?) My biggest reason for thinking Trfel is scum is #607 where he says he's trying very hard not to direct the thread, then proceeds to direct the hell out of the thread dissecting tumbleweed's filter, this results in tumbleweed being the current lynch target. Maybe this is a sick town play and we're going to get rid of mafia on the first night, but I think, judging from his experience, Trfel is an experienced mafia player, and is scum trying to get a townie lynched on day 1. from here on out my posts are going to be shorter, I'm getting a headache going over everything, this is my own fault for being so inactive at the start, there's so much content to wrap my head around. Onegu Seems scummy, lots of short very defensive answers, "Big post coming from me" was actually just a bunch of short reactions to other people's posts. that being said, I disagree with several of his reads, especially Tea being mafia. that being said I do agree with his Trfel read. I don't think he's scum enough to vote, but definitely enough to keep my eye on. _MexicanAlien Comes off as a noob at the start. I don't think he's scum, but he's not being very helpful to town, either. I disagree with his reads. Eden Seems town, nice long posts, decent contribution Shapelog Heck, man you've posted so much. Chill out a bit, think before you post. A lot of your posts are off-topic and it's not too helpful. I'm reading you as town for now but I'm going to keep a close eye on you from now on. OKAY SO My top 3 for each Scum: Onegu, JesusIncarnate, Tfel Town: PMT, Darth, Alur Keep a close eye on: Shape, Tumble, Kuragari I'm going to refrain from voting for at least a little while, if I even vote at all. + Show Spoiler + we are allowed to abstain from voting, right? For now, please feel free to AMA, call me out, whatever. I'll be reading the thread a lot for at least the next few hours. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 28 2016 14:31 _MexicanAlien wrote: Whoops, My bad. I'm going to vote on my top scum / useless town read at the moment, I'm open to changing this if people sway my opinion. ##Vote JesusIncarnate | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 28 2016 14:42 darthfoley wrote: Welcome to the thread! Hope you're getting caught up. I like your post, but I have a question. You mention that Onegu and Trfel are in your scum category. Do you think that they could be on a scum team together? If one flips mafia, will that change your opinion on the other? All of my calls were made based on the person's filter, their posting style, how constructive they were. I'm still wrapping my head around everyone's opinion of everyone else. I went back and read through all of Trfel and Onegu's filters. Based on their posts to each other, I don't think they're both scum. Both come off as scummy, but if one was proven scum, my suspicion toward the other would drop. This is because they've frequently questioned each other and have interacted quite a lot. If I was scum, I'd likely talk to my teammates in the thread, to divert suspicion, but not THIS much. I have a stronger scum read for Trfel than I do for Onegu. + Show Spoiler + On January 28 2016 14:46 Eden1892 wrote: Bingo. And not only that, I don't even see how Tumblewood's opinions about Shapelog and darthfoley are inconsistent. He pointed out early that both players made self-references to their not being mafia and had them as two of his top three suspects. His opinions of the two players diverge as the game goes on, which makes sense given that they're saying and doing different things. I'm biased and open to being talked down, but I read Trfel's case and came away feeling like I'd cornered him on his apparent flip-flop on his read on Tumblewood, and that he forced this case where it wasn't really there to look like he sincerely believed he had something there. I'm still fine lynching Trfel. Keeping my vote in place. Also okay with this wagon on Jesus. kush's point on Jesus is okay, darth's emergent case on Jesus is pretty strong for day 1, both of those players are strong town to me, and both players attacked on completely different axes from the other. Would sheep 10/10, will switch vote to push this wagon over the top if Trfel isn't going or some other wagon looks poised to overtake both. EBWOthreadrefresh: This Ikidomari guy is basically lock scum, we can lynch him too. Stealing my dude Koshi's styling and heuristic for part of this. literally "this guy is town, either that or mafia," breaking the tie on an arbitrary factor (alleged lack of forum experience) which has no impact on alignment again with the "this guy is town, either that or mafia" read, but this time with a dose of newbie johns to excuse himself from not committing to one stance or the other. Everyone go read the stickied analysis by Ver on XXX Mafia and then scroll for the part where he dissects how this one new player does the exact same thing in that game as mafia. You'll see it and you'll read this and thank me. how is this constructive Ikidomari? you go on to say that I'm town and Shapelog (the object of the strategy in question) isn't necessarily scum so how is this helping anybody? and what good is the question to Jesus there anyway? is that going to help you read him? because neither alignment is incentivized to make themselves more prone to being attacked so I'm not sure how this does... no use to this at all. doesn't explain how Kuragari is particularly scummy, says he doesn't have enough info for proper judgment, throws a scumread out anyway. yet another "this guy is town, either that or mafia" read, arbitrarily tiebroken toward Trfel being mafia based on experience. he at least commits to Onegu being scum, but again with the "suspicious but not enough to vote on" conclusions... but then he also thinks Trfel is scum? and even says he agrees with Onegu's read on Trfel. How do you have both of them as scum, Ikidomari? - so now Jesus became a top 3 scum read after calling Jesus "unhelpful town" in the actual read on Jesus - he has Onegu as "keep my eye on" but then puts him in scum instead of the literal reads group titled "keep a close eye on" and he doesn't list me and kush/noon as town reads despite calling us these. ^^i bring this up even though it's NAI in and of itself, because these arbitrary designations give him a clean "three town three scum three watch-out" list of reads; too clean to me. It just looks inorganic that he has an even split of reads, that's just not how reads naturally evolve normally. It looks more like a manufactured list to me. also there's this: excuses for not being caught up. this might as well read "disregard what I'm saying and ignore my reads," he's literally giving us multiple reasons (inactivity/falling behind, struggling to read the thread thoroughly) for discrediting his reads. what townie does this? if you just don't have anything to add then you don't post anything or post what you do have to add (strong town reads if nothing else). newbie scum do this all the time, they post a large post of reads that looks involved and invested in the game, but then seed all kinds of backdoors to escape committing to those reads with various excuses and waffling in the reads themselves. this is basically a portrait of what new scum looks like ##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Ikidomari Man I knew my town was bad but I don't think it's fair for you to go on me this hard. This is literally my first ever game of mafia, my only experience is watching "the town" LAN by beyond the summit. I know that right now I am super useless town, but I'm here to learn. I would be a fair day-1 lynch for being so inactive, and you have a pretty compelling case for me being mafia, but I ask that you leave me alive simply so I can have a chance to be more active and learn more. As for my posts being waffling and leaving backdoors, that's simply because at this point I didn't want to commit too hard to my reads, because my reads are BAD. I haven't been fully engaged in the game, I've tried to wrap my head around 30 hours of posts in the space of an hour or 2, and get my post out. as to why I had such a concise list with 3 town 3 scum 3 watch, that's because (I believe it was) Mexican asked earlier for everyone to do a 3 scum list with reasons. I merely added on the other 2 categories because I thought it would be useful. On January 28 2016 14:47 Eden1892 wrote: oh my goodness it's actual literal magic christmasland. is it really this easy? lock for scum +other posts on me voting for jesus. It took me about an hour and a half to write that post with my thoughts on everyone. My opinion of Jesus changed as I got further into it, and I didn't edit my summary on him. Again. I'm probably the weakest player in this game, so feel free to lynch me for that reason, but I'm not scum and I'd really love to hang around and learn + Show Spoiler + it was really quite hard to learn from the BTS stream, because you know who is scum and who is town going into it, so there's an inherent bias. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 28 2016 15:16 Eden1892 wrote: sigh hittin me right in the feels with "keep me alive so I can learn" I'll humor that your post took a while and you changed your mind as a result, Iki. After all, I pretty rapidly changed course on who I wanted to lynch while I was typing my post  But you got to explain to me what changed your mind. It's a bit odd to me that you claim you did, because you didn't make much mention of Jesus in-between your read on him and your list of reads. And you didn't put it back in at the end... or in the follow-up post where you voted for him... So what changed your mind about Jesus? Please be as specific as you can. Sure. It's his attitude. I admit I'm biased because I dislike the way he types, but I couldn't stop thinking about motivations as to why he'd be so arrogant, and how that arrogance could be used to his advantage. The only logical reason that I could see someone would draw so much attention to themselves is so that, if they were mafia, people would think "Man, there's no way mafia would be stupid enough to draw that much attention to themselves, he must be town" It seems suspicious as hell to me, and I can't think of a good reason a town player would paint themselves as a target. His posting style reminds me of an anonymous poster on 4chan, not of a TL user looking to solve a puzzle. Source: I spend far too much time on both websites. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 28 2016 15:23 darthfoley wrote: *hint, if you want to stay alive, I suggest you do as he says and not fall back on "i'm a noob!" excuse* We've all been there, but if you want to stick around, you need to prove that you have value. This doesn't mean that you need to solve every person in every post you write. It's perfectly fine to focus on only a couple of people, if you have legitimate reasons to do so. With that said, I am too interested in hearing about why your opinion of JesusIncarnate changed. I'm assuming you read my case against him before you posted, so why the change mid way through your post? I agree, using the "I'm a noob" excuse is cheap, and should be disregarded. Lynch me for being useless. I did read your post on jesus, and you posted it after I wrote my bit on jesus, but before I voted for him. I admit that I was a little influenced by your post, but my main reason for voting to lynch jesus, remains that I just don't like his arrogance. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
1. I start writing my first long post 2. darth writes his case against jesus 3. I read darth's case [bold] after [/bold] writing my part on jesus 4. I post 5. I realize I have to vote 6. I vote for my least favorite person in the game so far- Jesus has contributed very little, his attitude annoys me, other players have a case against him too. that last point about other players having a case against him is important to me, I don't want to mis-lynch someone, in the off chance that it's a close vote, and my vote tips the scales. Here's my last point in defense for now. If I was mafia, I'm most afraid of Eden and Darth, and people in the thread know that. If I survive being lynched today, who dies in the night will pretty much confirm whether or not I'm mafia / town, and I'm an easy vote for day 2. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
what does WIFOM mean? and NAI for that matter. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 28 2016 15:42 Eden1892 wrote: Oh he posted again. Iki, why would a mafia want to paint a target on their backs if a townie wouldn't want to do so? Townie paints a target gets attacked for it defends the attack gets towncred, and asshole cred. there's a little benefit, but would it not be far better to just be goodtown? Mafia paints a target people assume there's no way mafia would draw that much attention to themselves if they get attacked they defend it get towncred and asshole cred. the difference is that town has no motivation to gain towncred, town has motivation to solve the game. mafia need to gain towncred twice as much as town do. at least in my very limited understanding, that's the way I see it. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 28 2016 15:55 Eden1892 wrote: I am dumb, this isn't going anywhere. This guy's probably not mafia. ##UNVOTE Iki, + Show Spoiler + That's kind of alright logic, but it presupposes that if attacked, the mafia can hold off the attack and get townread. Neither side wants to get lynched, obviously, but one side actively cares about not being lynched (mafia) while the other primarily cares about lynching mafia (town). Painting a target on one's own back notably can serve a town purpose (baiting scum into pushing a bad case on them, a kind of reaction test), but it can't really serve a mafia purpose (you would then have to explain how you were baiting scum and make a case on people, or just get mislynched -- with people heavily scrutinizing your post for errors or reasons to lynch you). In essence I think you have it backwards. Townies have some motivation to bait attacks on themselves, since they're trying to find mafia, not necessarily survive. Mafia, on the other hand, win only by surviving and thus have next to no incentive to bait attacks on themselves. But I believe you sincerely believe what you say, and if I believe this, then your explanation makes sense to me from your POV. Thanks. The only time I've seen someone paint a target on themselves was SirActionSlacks in The Town, and he typically ended up wasting a lot of time and not helping the town as much as he thought he would. Hopefully this is the first and last time I'll ever have to say "I'm a fucking idiot" to not get lynched, I'll try and play better / be more constructive and insightful from here on out (assuming I still don't get lynched) | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
The next time I'll be active is my lunch break tomorrow (probably about 13-14 hours from the time of this post), and then after that will be when I get home from work (18-20 hours from this post). I'll be as transparent as possible in my answers. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 29 2016 00:26 _MexicanAlien wrote: You might want to show how darthfoley and eden1982 were not bailing you out or giving you backdoors. if you guys were a scum team you would ignore this point. Sure, Here's why we aren't a scum team. If I was mafia, I fucked up bad, real bad. What I did was a horrendous play for mafia, and if eden and darth were my teammates, if they had two brain cells to rub together they'd immediately throw me under the bus and distance themselves from me, not try and rescue me. Sure, they'd be playing from behind 1 man down, but it's a far better option than losing the game then and there. Put yourself in Mafia's shoes, if your ally shits the bed, do you help him clean it up, getting dirty in the process, or do you pretend you don't know the guy? | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 29 2016 00:49 _MexicanAlien wrote: Haha. Turns out I was WIFOMing you. Mafia would never ignore the accusation in question+ Show Spoiler + Shape log says darthfoley and eden1892 gave Ikidomari a back door or of the situation. Seeing as Darth and eden1892 completely dropped all accusation almost immediately, this is not as wild a point as it seems. A Mafia would try to bail out scummates from being associated with himself, like you just did. Or tried to do Also think of it this way. If darthfoley and eden1892 were successful, you would get off scot-free. No one would suspect you. High- risk, high reward. Let's take this a step further then. In the hypothetical situation where I'm mafia: either Eden or Darth aren't my Teammates, I've been caught as obvious scum. My best play to help my team at this point is to put a strong townie under suspicion. I "fall" for your obvious WIFOM, and either A) You believe my response and drop suspicion on me, or B) "you got me", and you now suspect a good town to be mafia. Don't tell me how WIFOM works, then expect me to immediately fall for it jesus. I made a bad play in my first ever game, but I'm not a moron. As to why I responded, Either I ignore the post, other people read your "if you don't respond to this you're scum", and conclude that I am, indeed scum If I do reply you pull this WIFOM shit on me, and I at least have a chance to retort it. If I'm still alive come tomorrow I'm going to be riding you hard | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
On January 29 2016 00:48 Kuragari42 wrote: But.. I think that any mafia would consider NK'ing Eden, probably Darth as well. This really has little indication of your alignment. Not to mention that the doc in this game might change up the NK a bit. I was hoping to be the first one to call you out on Seeming certain there's a doctor in the game, when we don't know that, but I got pissed off at mexican's post and missed my chance, still. Maybe you mistyped or your english is bad, or this is bait to get a stupid mafia to respond and say "Hey how do you know there's a doctor", instantly redflagging them. On January 29 2016 00:41 Eden1892 wrote: I am far too easily swayed in these games. Was kind of hoping one of the vet players would unambiguously say that my Iki case was good or bad, but I guess I can't bank on always having somebody to get in my ear and tell me I'm playing badly. lol I think I'm just gonna vote for Iki after all. I don't think I want Trfel to go today. Still not feeling this Jesus train -- still too many people on him for things that don't make him mafia to make me comfortable with it. Really nothing changed to make me think that Iki couldn't be mafia. Might be letting him off the hook too easily, idk. I reread my case and I feel like Iki didn't really rebut what I was saying, so probably I should just lynch him. ##VOTE: Ikidomari I feel like Onegu also hasn't done anything in a hot minute. That's probably a good reason to kill him too. I don't really have time before sleep to put together a proper defence, and the vote is in 5 hours, so I guess I'll go to bed and wake up to find out if I'm still in the game or not. I hope you change your mind, but town or mafia, logically speaking I'm a good day 1 kill. Good luck. | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
Sorry for such a poor showing in my first game, I was super busy with life right when we started, and now well, it is what it is. Peace~ | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
I don't have time to make a detailed post but I'm reading your posts in my free time. I'll try and get out my thoughts on the current discussions during my lunch break (about 2-3 hours from now), if not, when I get home (anywhere from 7-10 hours) If anyone has any questions for me I'll answer them as soon as I get a chance. Usually I'd be able to post more during work hours but my staff really shit the bed while I was away for a day and a half | ||
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Ikidomari
Australia485 Posts
Expect a solid post from me ~2-3 hours from now, I've had a lot of time to think over what's been said and draw some conclusions. | ||
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