(Just in case you're being pedantic...) could you do something similar here to what you did in the post I linked, and list your reads/thoughts on everyone, please.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 15:20 GMT

#1574

(... and will you?)

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 17:11 GMT

#1581

Can people start posting where their votes are going to fall at the moment? I think it's probably best to get those now, so we can discuss them, since we seem pretty fractured.

##VOTE: Ticktock

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 18:13 GMT

#1584

We 100% should have lynched Onegu on day 1. We're now in a situation where he's the obvious lynch victim, but it's just as easy for mafia to push to lynch him as an easy ML. Hell, I just riddled out why it's an easy thing for the mafia to push, and I'd still probably support it. There's a lesson here kids - LYNCH ALL LURKERS, but do it early, before you end up in this shitty situation.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 18:20 GMT

#1585

Actually, I'm starting to think that even if we lynch elsewhere, the mafia will still NK Onegu. At least eliminating someone else might conceivably give us useful information. Lynching Onegu just suggests that the mafia are as tired of him as townies are.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 18:20 GMT

#1586

Sorry, that should be "NKing Onegu just suggests..."

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 19:28 GMT

#1596

I think it's a pretty enormous stretch to say he "picked it up". He posted a couple of posts that were more than a line long, mostly all in defence of his rule. His rule that was, by the way, pretty much totally discredited when Shen flipped town. None of this is to say that he is mafia. In fact, I think any half-way competent town would have lynched him on Day 1, and it would have been a worthy mislynch. I can't fault you TT, or even scott, for lurking. I think that NHM, Onegu and Chocolate have all been lurk-y, as has VE. But at least all but Onegu have actually said things or in any way meaningfully contributed to this game.

All of that comes to why I honestly believe Chocolate is town. Chocolate was getting very heavily tunnelled on Day 1, but he was still willing to throw his vote onto Onegu with me. I see voting Onegu day 1 as the most pro-town thing it was possible to do. We definitely should not have lynched KS, not only because he ended up being blue, but because he was actually reading and contributing and pushing things.

Also, Chocolate is only 18 and he hasn't played much mafia. I see his playstyle more as inexperience and a small amount of immaturity, not scumminess. He posted a couple of stupid things and, as a result, got really heavily tunnelled by VE. He also got abused by Scott (who said "you'd better start shitting townie rainbows"). I'd be pissed too. In fact, Chocolate's reaction was similar (albeit more whiny and less righteous indignation) than GGT's.

If he's mafia and he's totally hoodwinked me, I'll feel like a prize chump. But those are my reasons and I'm going to stick by them, for now at least.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 19:34 GMT

#1597

@TT I will admit, I'm struggling to get out of the tunnel. Everything you and scott say screams mafia to me, and I can readily find excuses for Chocolate and milo, who I thought were town. I'm trying to shake those reads, but I think I'm better off reading other people's filters.

Let me go have a flick through VE's filter, because I think he and Damdred have played very similar games. If one of them is town and the other is mafia, that would be very surprising to me. In fact, I can't recall a time when either of them has actually read the other one. Hmmm. I'm going to go and look now.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 19:34 GMT

#1598

Edit: *I "think" milo and Chocolate are town, not "thought".

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 20:52 GMT

#1618

@Ticktock

Can you rehearse your arguments for a VE town read? I've just been over his filter fully for the first time, and it's actually completely useless. The only reads he makes all game are town on Scott and Nydus and scum on Chocolate and GGT. Almost every other post is him congratulating himself on being such a great townie, or responding in a "he-says she-says" ephemera type way. I had thought that he had tunnelled Chocolate pretty hard, but it wasn't even really a tunnel, it was more of a lynch mob. As soon as Chocolate made his (admittedly weird) first post, VE started on him and essentially didn't let go, but he kept his arguments almost exclusively to one-liners and angry rebuttals.

All in all, I found it EXTREMELY unenlightening and unedifying. Also he hasn't posted anything for over a day - at this rate he's on track to be mod-killed.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 20:54 GMT

#1619

@TT put another way, I still think you're mafia, but you're the only one actually trying to make reasoned arguments on this thread at the moment, so I should really ask what you have to say. I also really, really want to hear what Damdred has to say as well. Damdred and VE have barely exchanged any reads or chat at all this entire game, and that's strange for two people who have been so outspoken on other issues.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 20:57 GMT

#1621

Also @TT I put my vote on you because I was hoping other people might start laying out their votes as well, and for the plethora of reasons I have laid out before, and will lay out again if anyone has the enthusiasm to read them. I had thought that everyone putting their votes out early was good for town, because we could finally start nailing down where everyone stands on the next vote, which is going to be the most crucial. I can't think of any obvious townie arguments for everyone hiding their votes until the last moment, but if there are any then please let me know.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 22:54 GMT

#1633

I vote laundry list.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 09 2015 23:14 GMT

#1634

Another reason why I think Chocolate is probably town is that literally nobody in the thread has spoken up for him at all, except me and milo. Nobody has said anything positive about him.

That is even after the Day 1, where the people voting on KS were me, him, ritoky, Damdred and milo. Ritoky is confirmed town, and most people have milo confirmed town too. On the assumption that you believe I'm town, that leaves only Damdred voting on KS (other than Choco himself), and I'm pretty sure Damdred was on the Chocolate "wagon" before it even started. This analysis rings especially true because the vote was so close, one more mafia vote on KS would have swung it.

Obviously this whole thing rests on the premise that milo isn't scum. We've all been over several times why we generally think milo is town. Therefore I think the only reasonable conclusion is that either Damdred and Chocolate are both mafia, or neither of them are. Has anyone noticed Damdred deflecting off Chocolate at all?

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 10 2015 00:05 GMT

#1636

Okay, so literally nobody has been defending Chocolate at all (except milo and I). I really think that says a lot, because if he were mafia I would have expected someone to at least lightly deflect off him, or to vote to save him.

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 10 2015 12:25 GMT

#1647

Hey Damdred and NHM. You've both said before quite a few times that you thought TT was Mafia. If you both, along with Chocolate, me and milo vote for him, he's done. I've given the reasons before why I think Chocolate is town and is definitely the wrong lynch today. If you look back over the fall out from EOD 1 then you'll see ritoky was also convinced (or thought GGT and Choco were scum together, which they obviously weren't. Neither of you have, as far as I can see, rescinded your scum reads on him (well, my re-read of the thread is only at page 47, so maybe you do later, but I don't think so).

What do you say?

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 10 2015 12:27 GMT

#1648

EBWOP

Hey Damdred and NHM. You've both said before quite a few times that you thought TT was Mafia. If you both, along with Chocolate, me and milo vote for him, he's done. I've given the reasons before why I think Chocolate is town and is definitely the wrong lynch today. If you look back over the fall out from EOD 1 then you'll see ritoky was also convinced (or thought GGT and Choco were scum together, which they obviously weren't). Neither of you have, as far as I can see, rescinded your scum reads on TT (well, my re-read of the thread is only at page 47, so maybe you do later, but I don't think so).

What do you say?

Fidei86

United Kingdom2116 Posts

June 10 2015 13:14 GMT

#1649

BTW I want to call it here and now, I think the mafia team is Ticktock, Scott and VE.

One thing really struck me about the GGT wagon - it was basically entirely started by VE, but only after GGT had raised utter hell about Ticktock already. And that was on top of VE having previously had a mortal lock scum read on Chocolate. There was literally no reason not to continue to push for the Chocolate lynch, especially because plenty of other townies were crowing for him to be lynched as well (indeed, Shen continued to advocate it for a while). I don't see why VE would move off one of his "confirmed mafia" onto another, particularly as GGT was literally tunnel-visioned on Ticktock. I see no reason why a townie VE ships his vote from Chocolate to GGT, except to try and "bury" the Ticktock train that might have started to form.

I'm very happy to be talked down from this, but that's how I see things.