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On March 10 2015 01:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:34 GlowingBear wrote:On March 10 2015 00:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On March 10 2015 00:47 marvellosity wrote:
you played really excellently rayn. I actually considered most of my posts and reads many times before posting them. While not being wordy i didn't end up being Glowingbear (no offence).  None taken, I've already admitted I put every kind of thought in the thread, even when I always recommend coachees to take a step back before posting it's just that I have more fun this way You probably shouldn't. There is a chance you distract people from solving the game, or the lesser bad outcome is you just get ignored for the rest of the game (which at least i kinda started doing at some point). While yes, in this game it made you obvious town that's not really the most effective way of playing mafia as if everyone played that way the thread would be a total chaos. Also you are not really helping when you don't think things through. Like look at Damdred's read on you. He ignored your (obivous) town tells because the pretty much all the other stuff you posted he considered nonsense.
I get it. I understand the problems of doing what I do. It's just I have too much fun doing this shit 
My ability to read haven't developed enough. I can read townies with more accuracy but not Mafia. Although if I call a townie Mafia, it means my ability to read townies isn't that accurate.
In the other hand, I won't be playing again anytime soon. I'll use that time to reevaluate what I'm doing wrong and I'll be around discussing things, hosting themed games, but certainly, CERTAINLY not playing.
As marv said and also as I said before, very impressive play Rayn. I think you deserve to be nominated
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no he doesn't really. he did play excellently but the opposition was close to non-existent. There needs to be a proper challenge.
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Although I still don't understand entirely how you found out Kelsier is Mafia.
It looked just semantics to me.
As in Damdred's thing. I was willing to give him leeway because it felt like his slip were only semantics
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yeah tbh this game was really easy.
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On March 10 2015 02:15 marvellosity wrote:
no he doesn't really. he did play excellently but the opposition was close to non-existent. There needs to be a proper challenge.
Hm.
Don't you think his read on Kelsier was superb, and that his insta town reads were too accurate?
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On March 10 2015 02:17 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:15 marvellosity wrote:
no he doesn't really. he did play excellently but the opposition was close to non-existent. There needs to be a proper challenge. Hm. Don't you think his read on Kelsier was superb, and that his insta town reads were too accurate?
no. this was a game where townies played like town and scum played like scum.
i don't even quite understand myself the wording/semantics that rayn caught kelsier in, but kels' filter was pathetic, which it just isn't as town, and that's enough on its own
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The thing is Kelsier made a case that didn't make any sense.
Like i could get what he said from towbn perspective in case he is considering possibilities. But one of his reasons was "VE is trying to pocket rayn - that's why VE is mafia". That's what he said in his case.
He can't possibly think VE is mafia for pocketing me if he does not think i am town, because then there is no pocketing.
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On March 10 2015 02:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The thing is Kelsier made a case that didn't make any sense.
Like i could get what he said from towbn perspective in case he is considering possibilities. But one of his reasons was "VE is trying to pocket rayn - that's why VE is mafia". That's what he said in his case.
He can't possibly think VE is mafia for pocketing me if he does not think i am town, because then there is no pocketing.
The problem is: what if he simply thought you were actually town?
Anyway, the problem I had here is that he defended me and went against VE, strong and vocal player. Sounded like too suicidal to be Mafia.
On the other hand, filters like tormented, mm1 and a little of Soren sounded more plausible
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On March 10 2015 02:25 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The thing is Kelsier made a case that didn't make any sense.
Like i could get what he said from towbn perspective in case he is considering possibilities. But one of his reasons was "VE is trying to pocket rayn - that's why VE is mafia". That's what he said in his case.
He can't possibly think VE is mafia for pocketing me if he does not think i am town, because then there is no pocketing. The problem is: what if he simply thought you were actually town?
It is not the problem because i asked him if he has a town read on me and the answer was "no".
Then i voted for him.
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On March 10 2015 02:27 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:25 GlowingBear wrote:On March 10 2015 02:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The thing is Kelsier made a case that didn't make any sense.
Like i could get what he said from towbn perspective in case he is considering possibilities. But one of his reasons was "VE is trying to pocket rayn - that's why VE is mafia". That's what he said in his case.
He can't possibly think VE is mafia for pocketing me if he does not think i am town, because then there is no pocketing. The problem is: what if he simply thought you were actually town? It is not the problem because i asked him if he has a town read on me and the answer was "no". Then i voted for him.
Oh!!!
Got it.
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On March 10 2015 02:25 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The thing is Kelsier made a case that didn't make any sense.
Like i could get what he said from towbn perspective in case he is considering possibilities. But one of his reasons was "VE is trying to pocket rayn - that's why VE is mafia". That's what he said in his case.
He can't possibly think VE is mafia for pocketing me if he does not think i am town, because then there is no pocketing. The problem is: what if he simply thought you were actually town? Anyway, the problem I had here is that he defended me and went against VE, strong and vocal player. Sounded like too suicidal to be Mafia.On the other hand, filters like tormented, mm1 and a little of Soren sounded more plausible
Why? I love VE dearly but he's not known for relentlessly getting his targets lynched.
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On March 10 2015 02:29 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:25 GlowingBear wrote:On March 10 2015 02:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The thing is Kelsier made a case that didn't make any sense.
Like i could get what he said from towbn perspective in case he is considering possibilities. But one of his reasons was "VE is trying to pocket rayn - that's why VE is mafia". That's what he said in his case.
He can't possibly think VE is mafia for pocketing me if he does not think i am town, because then there is no pocketing. The problem is: what if he simply thought you were actually town? Anyway, the problem I had here is that he defended me and went against VE, strong and vocal player. Sounded like too suicidal to be Mafia.On the other hand, filters like tormented, mm1 and a little of Soren sounded more plausible Why? I love VE dearly but he's not known for relentlessly getting his targets lynched.
I've seen VE locking on targets before. I believe he was very vocal on... Avogadro's Mafia?
Anyway, it sounded more plausible to me that scum Kelsier would come to the thread and try to form a second wagon on a player that could be ML, like mm1, Soren, etc.
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I don't think he would be able to get a VE wagon rolling
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On March 10 2015 02:29 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:25 GlowingBear wrote:On March 10 2015 02:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The thing is Kelsier made a case that didn't make any sense.
Like i could get what he said from towbn perspective in case he is considering possibilities. But one of his reasons was "VE is trying to pocket rayn - that's why VE is mafia". That's what he said in his case.
He can't possibly think VE is mafia for pocketing me if he does not think i am town, because then there is no pocketing. The problem is: what if he simply thought you were actually town? Anyway, the problem I had here is that he defended me and went against VE, strong and vocal player. Sounded like too suicidal to be Mafia.On the other hand, filters like tormented, mm1 and a little of Soren sounded more plausible Why? I love VE dearly but he's not known for relentlessly getting his targets lynched.
VE was really fucking townie in this game from the beginning (and has been lately).
In fact Kelsier's read on VE should have been the opposite. He was my first strong townread. An easy one.
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Locking on and being vocal are very different from being able to push a target through though.
On March 10 2015 02:32 GlowingBear wrote:
I don't think he would be able to get a VE wagon rolling
he doesn't need to (theoretically), he just needs to look like he's doing things
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I see, but my point is: if Rayn hadn't caught him on his slip, I think he would have better chances on staying alive than MM1 or Tormented.
I found those filters worse than Kelsier's for this sole thing.
By going against VE he drew his attention. If he went WITH VE against MM1, it would fit better the Mafia perspective.
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On March 10 2015 02:40 GlowingBear wrote:
I see, but my point is: if Rayn hadn't caught him on his slip, I think he would have better chances on staying alive than MM1 or Tormented.
I found those filters worse than Kelsier's for this sole thing.
By going against VE he drew his attention. If he went WITH VE against MM1, it would fit better the Mafia perspective.
You've just gotta be really careful about this heuristic. Mafia do things so they don't look like they're doing mafia things.
I still never forgot a game years ago where a trolly/weird player went *really hard* against me at start of d2 after I caught him in some sort of slip. I ended up rationalising that he was town because it was absolutely suicidal for him to go against someone who couldn't possibly be lynched, and he was just signing his own death warrant (as i was pushing him already).
Alas...
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Hell i even gave him an out (which was also a trap but i kinda went all-in ^^ ):
On March 06 2015 22:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2015 22:15 KelsierSC wrote:
Yeh he shouldn't have read you town for the reason he did. How does this make sense given these are the facts: - VE townreads me - You townread me - VE thinks my case is good - You think my case is good how?
Now he has two things to do. I intentionally didn't speak about the other part ("VE pocketing me" - argument), so:
1) Kelsier says "i don't read you as town" -> he is mafia
2) Kelsier says "while you can be wrong on your read and VE agreeing with you is scummy because [insert some reasons]" -> if the reasons are okay(ish) he is probably town.
He took the easy, no-need-to-think-way out.
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GlowingBear, the thing is whoever he makes his case on does not matter.
The case wasn't a townie case because (1) VE was really obviously town, (2) the pocketing shit and (3) to me it looked like he wasn't really reading VE mafia but still ended up on a "conclusion" (i can't really explain this, but that's how i felt when i read his posts about VE).
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On March 10 2015 02:44 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:40 GlowingBear wrote:
I see, but my point is: if Rayn hadn't caught him on his slip, I think he would have better chances on staying alive than MM1 or Tormented.
I found those filters worse than Kelsier's for this sole thing.
By going against VE he drew his attention. If he went WITH VE against MM1, it would fit better the Mafia perspective. You've just gotta be really careful about this heuristic. Mafia do things so they don't look like they're doing mafia things. I still never forgot a game years ago where a trolly/weird player went *really hard* against me at start of d2 after I caught him in some sort of slip. I ended up rationalising that he was town because it was absolutely suicidal for him to go against someone who couldn't possibly be lynched, and he was just signing his own death warrant (as i was pushing him already). Alas...
And he ended up being Mafia I suppose.
But you at least caught his slip. Discrediting you fits scum perspective. Here, Kelsier joins the thread without ever being mentioned.
Anyway, I understand what you're saying. Gonna take care next time.
Also, Rayn, the thing about calling VE Mafia but not showing a better understanding of VE's filter is completely understandable and that should have been more explicit to me.
Awesome. Very good post-game discussion. Thank you guys.
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EPT
