EPTmost of the time.
[D] Activity and Town-Play - Page 9
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
most of the time. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
edit: my sometimes very brief presence that is | ||
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justanothertownie
16320 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:31 marvellosity wrote: obviously my very presence inspires my scumteams to greatness. edit: my sometimes very brief presence that is Very brief. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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justanothertownie
16320 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote: I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games. This a 1000 times. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote: I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote: I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games. I think Artanis and BH have minimal activity standards in their rulesets - and BH said in the Horn obs qt that lurking can be a legitimate strategy. That's what I've heard. I think that can be solved personally through increased use of vigilantes in games or town being willing to policy vote people more. EDIT: I realise policy voting may result in mostly townies getting lynched, but I think people need to weigh the consequences of lurker scum being around in lylo. I don't think enough people do that. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
mainly because of the moron towns who sign up and don't play if all townies tried, lurking wouldn't be a legit strat | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:35 Half the Sky wrote: I think Artanis and BH have minimal activity standards in their rulesets - and BH said in the Horn obs qt that lurking can be a legitimate strategy. That's what I've heard. I think that can be solved personally through increased use of vigilantes in games or town being willing to policy vote people more. So what you're saying is that people who don't play the way that you feel is right should be policy lynched or shot? Why are we even having a discussion about the opposite having a RULE change or being capped then??? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:38 Holyflare wrote: So what you're saying is that people who don't play the way that you feel is right should be policy lynched or shot? Why are we even having a discussion about the opposite having a RULE change or being capped then??? 100% inconsistent ##Vote: HtS slamdunk | ||
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justanothertownie
16320 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
So here's some history. Did you guys know that back in the day, the top town players generally did not have the longest filters? You can get some insight in what was considered the norm on TL by reading Ver's guide, but the gist of what was considered strong town play, but people like qatol, ver, foolishness and many more from the very early era of TL Mafia were generally good at reading the thread, detecting things that seem off and making cases based on those. You've all seen it, it still happens every game. Someone summarizes a bunch of points and concludes something about the alignment of whoever he is analyzing. It's a pretty cool way of doing things. However as people tried to adopt this style there was kind of a switch that happened. I don't know exactly when, or how, and it probably happened gradually, but at some point the conversation started replacing the case. You see the cases almost became too much to deal with, I remember there being multiple cases, even by the same people in the same day. I think I once caught a guy being mafia for making like 4 cases in a single day (I only made 3, so I was town). And so as the old guard of players started playing less and less there was space for a new generation of players to change the style of play. The old guard has an entire chapter of history that would be very fun to read about, but generally the protactinium incident and the influx of new players over the following months ended an era. This new generation of players created it's own mythos of players, and just like how you sometimes hear old guard players mentioned in games today (Ace, Ver, Qatol, Foolishness, BC etc etc etc) you also hear the name of the 1st generation players (Palmar, Sandroba, Syllogism, mig, Curu, VisceraEyes etc). However, this also created a style change on TL. Due to how well this 1st generation knew each other, we started adopting a conversational based style that had previously generally been looked down upon on TL. The conversation style was effective, but it wasn't until marv came in that it got perfected. The 1st generation players were some kind of a hybrid in a transitional stage. When marv rolled around that all changed. The conversation style became the dominant playstyle on TL mafia, and it made the games longer than what we'd seen before. It's a fun fact that the 1st generation players were often considered spammers back in the day, but it's nothing compared to what marv and the following generations did. An important difference in styles, is that the 1st generation players mostly used conversation to investigate the insider group, whereas by the 3rd generation (defined below) everyone was being dragged into conversations by the leaders of town. The 1st generation would usually make cases outside of the core group. Syllogism is probably the most dominant town player from this era, and you can still see remnants of his play in how marv plays today. Marv is probably the most influential player on TL since Ver. And soon he had coached up a bunch of other players who could keep up with this style. iamp, DP, hapa, prome were part of what I'm going to call the 3rd generation of players and the conversational style has ever since dominated TL mafia. It is a very effective style for many reasons, but it also requires more intimacy between the players than the case based style. The thing is, the conversational style sort of improves itself, which is why it is so hard to break out of. By the rise of the modern generation of players the cases had basically disappeared, or become so rare as the primary pushing and hunting mechanic that they were irrelevant. Players like Koshi, JAT, HF, rayn very rarely use some kind of a case as a central method to their scumhunting methods. Despite being chatty, Hapa was very much a player who still built cases regularly to push things. I don't think there have been any major developments since then in playstyle, or at least we're not far enough from it to notice trends on a longer scale. But it's quite clear that gradually, over the last 5 years, the casemakers have been replaced by the conversationalists. But why is that? Let's look at the style a bit. Being conversational requires extreme activity, and all that activity leads to better knowing the people you play with. Better knowing the people you play with leads to being able to read them based on things like mood, posting style much better. If you tried to employ the conversation style in a forum full of people you do not know, the results will never be as good as with people you do know, and the drop off is higher than the case style. Notice how almost all of the heaviest spammers on TL, at least since marv, are also considered some of the best players on TL. This is simply because all this spam requires an extreme amount of time invested in the game, and I've said it multiple times before that I believe the biggest factor in mafia is how much time you put in. Of course it helps that these players are generally very visible in games and tend to be leaders of their faction. As more and more people adopt the conversational style it becomes harder to change the norm as a player that doesn't want to use it as their primary style. And the more conversational style players there are, the harder it becomes to break into the circle, because of the sheer amount of posts being written. It's just a hard circle to break out of, and why should we? It's fairly effective and quite enjoyable to the people who can keep up, who also happen to be the people controlling the thread. The conversational style is extremely hard to mimic for inexperienced mafia players. This is another reason as to why it is so effective. It's just hard to hold a fast paced conversation when you're weighing every word, thinking about what your read should be on this guy, whereas the town on the other side is hardly thinking. But I think mafia players are catching up to the style, and have possibly started abusing it. It's possible that the style becomes unsustainable. It may even be that right now. Imperial mafia shattered records and ended up being a terrible game for town. I don't know what the future is, but I know things won't change overnight. Whatever trend shows up is not going to be immediately recognizable by us, it's only in the longer term that we will recognize a change has happened. That's not to say the case style is better, far from it. I believe both styles have their merit. I was part of the group that initially started moving away from the case style. And we have indeed seen some recent success with the case style, I recall Damdred wrecking mafia on day 1 with a classic case and a non-spammy style of play. The old guard did have conversations and the modern generation does make cases. The emphasis has simply shifted noticably. Of course generational and trend studies based on very little facts and more just feeling about what has happened over the years are very inaccurate. And I also believe there have been mini-trends aside from this larger one. There's also a bunch of players who don't quite fit the generations as I've defined them. Think of Gmarshal and Kita somewhere between the old guard and the 1st generation. Bugs and Blazinghand are both pre-marv but probably not quite part of the 1st generation. In fact maybe they deserve their own section with an experimental extremely tunnely and at times hostile style of early conversation. There are plenty of other interesting mini trends. The modern generation has started searching extremely aggressively for contradictions (raise hands if you've seen hf or rayn paint one sentence in green and another in red and try to show that they contradict each other). I think the latest mini-trend may be tone reads? Heavily influenced by robik and various other players from voice mafia, but nothing under the sun is new. Sandroba was quite good at recognizing tone many years ago. So what's next? We have a bunch of rising players on TL mafia and they aren't all the same. Damdred leans towards cases, Eden is more spammy and GB and Robik kind of fit neither category. Who knows? Some may quit, some may hang around. Maybe there's a player in the newbies right now that is going to revolutionize how we play mafia? It's a fascinating history and it's a privilege to be able to watch it unfold. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:45 Holyflare wrote: I used to make cases and found that nobody every fucking read them so I ditched cases and chatted to people to prove my point instead. It's the nature of the conversation style. If you can't keep up, you're screwed  | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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justanothertownie
16320 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:48 marvellosity wrote: I love reading stuff like that. Yeah, because it says you are influential. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:49 justanothertownie wrote: Yeah, because it says you are influential. Well, that's always nice :p but it's interesting in any case ^^ | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:49 Holyflare wrote: I dunno my first like 10ish games? were all long posts and then I started rolling mafia a shit tonne and found that I couldn't keep up with my town sized posts and content and switched my town game to better my mafia game too. I think that's why I won a bunch of mafia games in that period because of the amount of stuff I just churned out. yeah you conformed to my style, bitch | ||
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