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Newbie Mini Mafia LVI - Page 18

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
June 21 2014 14:56 GMT
#341
On June 21 2014 23:55 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:54 NydusHerMain wrote:
On June 21 2014 22:48 Solar424 wrote:
Hello. I am new to TL, and this is the first time playing Mafia online, bu I know the rules.


Feeling a bit rushed,
spelling error, no details,
I think you are scum

Do you often talk
And make all of your scum reads
In haiku format?

That could get very annoying very quickly.

edit: You don't actually think he's scum do you?
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
jabberwockzerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States294 Posts
June 21 2014 14:57 GMT
#342
On June 21 2014 22:48 Solar424 wrote:
Hello. I am new to TL, and this is the first time playing Mafia online, bu I know the rules.

you know the rules, and so do I
I put the money in the jacket, and the jacket on the kangaroo, and now he's hopping away!
Teemursu
Profile Joined June 2014
Finland839 Posts
June 21 2014 14:58 GMT
#343
On June 21 2014 23:54 NydusHerMain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 22:48 Solar424 wrote:
Hello. I am new to TL, and this is the first time playing Mafia online, bu I know the rules.


Feeling a bit rushed,
spelling error, no details,
I think you are scum

Hi, Nydus.

It's going to be an interesting challenge to try to read you.

I expect a lot from your haiku mastery. May they be plentiful and insightful. 8O)
Hobbitus
Profile Joined June 2014
222 Posts
June 21 2014 14:59 GMT
#344
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:

But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.
Teemursu
Profile Joined June 2014
Finland839 Posts
June 21 2014 15:01 GMT
#345
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:

But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?
NydusHerMain
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada492 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-21 15:08:52
June 21 2014 15:02 GMT
#346
On June 21 2014 23:56 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:55 The_Templar wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:54 NydusHerMain wrote:
On June 21 2014 22:48 Solar424 wrote:
Hello. I am new to TL, and this is the first time playing Mafia online, bu I know the rules.


Feeling a bit rushed,
spelling error, no details,
I think you are scum

Do you often talk
And make all of your scum reads
In haiku format?

That could get very annoying very quickly.

edit: You don't actually think he's scum do you?


Scummiest so far,
he has yet to earn my vote,
I still need more time



On June 21 2014 23:58 Teemursu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:54 NydusHerMain wrote:
On June 21 2014 22:48 Solar424 wrote:
Hello. I am new to TL, and this is the first time playing Mafia online, bu I know the rules.


Feeling a bit rushed,
spelling error, no details,
I think you are scum

Hi, Nydus.

It's going to be an interesting challenge to try to read you.

I expect a lot from your haiku mastery. May they be plentiful and insightful. 8O)


Challenge accepted,
I wish you the best my friend,
if you're scum, you'll lose
Teemursu
Profile Joined June 2014
Finland839 Posts
June 21 2014 15:03 GMT
#347
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:

But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Sorry, I misread you. You did say that you don't think it was a play. Would like to hear your thoughts anyway!
Hobbitus
Profile Joined June 2014
222 Posts
June 21 2014 15:14 GMT
#348
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:

But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Well like I said, it seems very obvious/early for a play? One "hey I think you're towny" post does not a scumteam make. It's more like you're sniffing out reads to me.

That being said, if it is a play I'd say you're more likely than Templar to be scum just because you do have such polarized reactions to people.
meatpudding
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia520 Posts
June 21 2014 15:14 GMT
#349
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:

But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


Would like to hear your thoughts as well. Do you have any reasoning to think that either would be scum?

On June 21 2014 22:59 Teemursu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 22:53 The_Templar wrote:
On June 21 2014 22:48 Teemursu wrote:
On June 21 2014 20:57 TheKingOfTheCats wrote:
On June 21 2014 20:48 HaruRH wrote:
On June 21 2014 20:41 TheKingOfTheCats wrote:
Hello people, i have a stupid username.

I've been playing mafia on OMGUS (TL's evil twin that's locked in the basement and fed a bucket of fish heads every night) since last october. Between then and now i was somehow voted season 2 best town so if my play is terrible it's pretty much a certainty that i'm scum.


Yea your scum play is horrible, to the extent of nearly being modkilled. I hope you aren't going to afk :/

I should be more active this game because i actually know how to play town. I was quiet in my last game because i have no idea what i'm doing as scum.

How was i nearly modkilled in that game?


How DO you play town? Let's talk!

Do you read into tone perhaps? Who do you like/dislike?

There's this guy named Teemursu who's taking things really seriously at the beginning of day 1.

In all seriousness, no reads for me yet as we've just introduced each other. Meatpudding's joke seemed a bit… random, (trying to get things friendly between everyone perhaps?) but I don't think it really means anything.


Yeah, I'm probably the most serious person you'll meet on this forum.

I actually kinda like this read. Feels like it's coming from a towny perspective. We -are- all new here and some are playing for the first time, and your read has that ring to it.




This post specifically makes me wonder. If Teemu is scum then I would say Templar is as well. Yeah, it's an obvious play, but if it's not a play then is there any reason to suspect either of them?
Be excellent to each other.
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
June 21 2014 15:36 GMT
#350
Too early for scumtell in my opinion. Let everyone post first. I would like to hear an introduction from everyone :D
It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
June 21 2014 15:41 GMT
#351
On June 22 2014 00:14 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:

But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Well like I said, it seems very obvious/early for a play? One "hey I think you're towny" post does not a scumteam make. It's more like you're sniffing out reads to me.

That being said, if it is a play I'd say you're more likely than Templar to be scum just because you do have such polarized reactions to people.


Now, you're raising flags here. I don't want to spoil your mood but once the day goes into full gear, you will only see one-sided polarised arguments filled with tunnel vision of each other. Also, by calling out the 'play', and yet saying you think it's too obvious/early for plays you're contradicting yourself.

+ Show Spoiler +

On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:19 TheKingOfTheCats wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:09 meatpudding wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 21 2014 20:41 The_Templar wrote:
Hi, I'm The_Templar. I'm from the sc2 section. I am a mapmaker and I live report sometimes.
I play a lot of sc2 mafia (the mod) but it's filled with idiots and trolls so I decided I wanted a challenge here. I played a game in TL+ where I was a mafia goon but I don't think anyone else here has TL+ to compare it so w/e.
I know Epishade and MM1 because they are pretty good at blogs, as well as meatpudding (not that well though).
My name story is that I wanted a 'normal' name when I was 13 so I decided to pick a unit, but I didn't want to pick just one so I decided to be ambiguous with templar.
I… am not a star trek fan, but I'll bear the flavor as if it's normal flavor.

Good luck everyone!


Since you're wondering, it was a direct response to this post. I usually browse custom maps but don't often post there.

What was a direct response to that post?


This post was a response to Templar:

On June 21 2014 21:56 meatpudding wrote:
Yeah I don't post that much. I lurk more than I post. Maybe I should be called The_Lurker.


But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.

It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
Hobbitus
Profile Joined June 2014
222 Posts
June 21 2014 16:03 GMT
#352
On June 22 2014 00:41 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2014 00:14 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:

Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Well like I said, it seems very obvious/early for a play? One "hey I think you're towny" post does not a scumteam make. It's more like you're sniffing out reads to me.

That being said, if it is a play I'd say you're more likely than Templar to be scum just because you do have such polarized reactions to people.


Now, you're raising flags here. I don't want to spoil your mood but once the day goes into full gear, you will only see one-sided polarised arguments filled with tunnel vision of each other. Also, by calling out the 'play', and yet saying you think it's too obvious/early for plays you're contradicting yourself.



I know it's going to go into tunnel vision, but I don't think there is enough info out there for that to have happened so far, and yet you have a pretty strong opinion on most people already. To me that suggests a strategy of some kind. What that strategy is, I don't know.

To clarify, I don't think you and Templar were buddying up like meatpudding (not I) suggested. The idea of THAT play seems too obvious and early.
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
June 21 2014 16:06 GMT
#353
On June 22 2014 01:03 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2014 00:41 HaruRH wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:14 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:

Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Well like I said, it seems very obvious/early for a play? One "hey I think you're towny" post does not a scumteam make. It's more like you're sniffing out reads to me.

That being said, if it is a play I'd say you're more likely than Templar to be scum just because you do have such polarized reactions to people.


Now, you're raising flags here. I don't want to spoil your mood but once the day goes into full gear, you will only see one-sided polarised arguments filled with tunnel vision of each other. Also, by calling out the 'play', and yet saying you think it's too obvious/early for plays you're contradicting yourself.



I know it's going to go into tunnel vision, but I don't think there is enough info out there for that to have happened so far, and yet you have a pretty strong opinion on most people already. To me that suggests a strategy of some kind. What that strategy is, I don't know.

To clarify, I don't think you and Templar were buddying up like meatpudding (not I) suggested. The idea of THAT play seems too obvious and early.


I'm pretty sure you meant this for teemu and Templar.
It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
June 21 2014 16:10 GMT
#354
On June 22 2014 00:41 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2014 00:14 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:

But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Well like I said, it seems very obvious/early for a play? One "hey I think you're towny" post does not a scumteam make. It's more like you're sniffing out reads to me.

That being said, if it is a play I'd say you're more likely than Templar to be scum just because you do have such polarized reactions to people.


Now, you're raising flags here. I don't want to spoil your mood but once the day goes into full gear, you will only see one-sided polarised arguments filled with tunnel vision of each other. Also, by calling out the 'play', and yet saying you think it's too obvious/early for plays you're contradicting yourself.

+ Show Spoiler +

On June 21 2014 23:44 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2014 23:31 meatpudding wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:19 TheKingOfTheCats wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:09 meatpudding wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 21 2014 20:41 The_Templar wrote:
Hi, I'm The_Templar. I'm from the sc2 section. I am a mapmaker and I live report sometimes.
I play a lot of sc2 mafia (the mod) but it's filled with idiots and trolls so I decided I wanted a challenge here. I played a game in TL+ where I was a mafia goon but I don't think anyone else here has TL+ to compare it so w/e.
I know Epishade and MM1 because they are pretty good at blogs, as well as meatpudding (not that well though).
My name story is that I wanted a 'normal' name when I was 13 so I decided to pick a unit, but I didn't want to pick just one so I decided to be ambiguous with templar.
I… am not a star trek fan, but I'll bear the flavor as if it's normal flavor.

Good luck everyone!


Since you're wondering, it was a direct response to this post. I usually browse custom maps but don't often post there.

What was a direct response to that post?


This post was a response to Templar:

On June 21 2014 21:56 meatpudding wrote:
Yeah I don't post that much. I lurk more than I post. Maybe I should be called The_Lurker.


But I was just describing my general forum attitude. Since I signed up to play I intend to contribute of course.

Teemu was quick to call me out though, but he backed up Templar straight away. Two scum trying to blend in with town?

TheKingOfCats tries to lynch me as well, but I think he's town trying to prod me if I'm mafia.


That seems like too obvious a play to me? I could see one or the other being scum but not both.


He actually left room open for both possibilities in his post- "If it is a play [even though it seems very obvious/early for a play], I think you're more likely to be scum"
The part in the spoiler is more interesting. He is not quite saying that it is a play, more like "it's too obvious to be a play". It fits with the rest of his posts IMO.
On June 22 2014 01:03 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2014 00:41 HaruRH wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:14 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:

Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Well like I said, it seems very obvious/early for a play? One "hey I think you're towny" post does not a scumteam make. It's more like you're sniffing out reads to me.

That being said, if it is a play I'd say you're more likely than Templar to be scum just because you do have such polarized reactions to people.


Now, you're raising flags here. I don't want to spoil your mood but once the day goes into full gear, you will only see one-sided polarised arguments filled with tunnel vision of each other. Also, by calling out the 'play', and yet saying you think it's too obvious/early for plays you're contradicting yourself.



I know it's going to go into tunnel vision, but I don't think there is enough info out there for that to have happened so far, and yet you have a pretty strong opinion on most people already. To me that suggests a strategy of some kind. What that strategy is, I don't know.

To clarify, I don't think you and Templar were buddying up like meatpudding (not I) suggested. The idea of THAT play seems too obvious and early.

Haru wasn't involved in this…? He jumped in with his opinion at some point.
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
NydusHerMain
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada492 Posts
June 21 2014 16:11 GMT
#355
On June 22 2014 01:03 Hobbitus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2014 00:41 HaruRH wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:14 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 22 2014 00:01 Teemursu wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:59 Hobbitus wrote:
On June 21 2014 23:51 HaruRH wrote:

Uh, do you really think this is a play?


No, that's my point. Meatpudding is saying that's a play, but I don't think so. IF it is though, I think it'd be more likely that one is town and one is scum than both being scum.


If you don't think it's a play, do you have a specific reasoning for that? Who do you think is the town/scum?


Well like I said, it seems very obvious/early for a play? One "hey I think you're towny" post does not a scumteam make. It's more like you're sniffing out reads to me.

That being said, if it is a play I'd say you're more likely than Templar to be scum just because you do have such polarized reactions to people.


Now, you're raising flags here. I don't want to spoil your mood but once the day goes into full gear, you will only see one-sided polarised arguments filled with tunnel vision of each other. Also, by calling out the 'play', and yet saying you think it's too obvious/early for plays you're contradicting yourself.



I know it's going to go into tunnel vision, but I don't think there is enough info out there for that to have happened so far, and yet you have a pretty strong opinion on most people already. To me that suggests a strategy of some kind. What that strategy is, I don't know.

To clarify, I don't think you and Templar were buddying up like meatpudding (not I) suggested. The idea of THAT play seems too obvious and early.


Reaction testing,
he does this in video,
neither town nor scum
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
June 21 2014 16:11 GMT
#356
I am going to play bridge. I'll be back in about 4 and a half hours and I'll see if some reads have developed for me.
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
June 21 2014 16:11 GMT
#357
On June 22 2014 01:11 The_Templar wrote:
I am going to play bridge. I'll be back in about 4 and a half hours and I'll see if some reads have developed for me.

Edit: I'm about to go play bridge
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
Hobbitus
Profile Joined June 2014
222 Posts
June 21 2014 16:15 GMT
#358
Sorry, like I said I'm new and might screw up the quoting stuff

Thank u, Templar, very wise.

(FYI I am a girl)
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
June 21 2014 16:16 GMT
#359
On June 22 2014 01:15 Hobbitus wrote:
Sorry, like I said I'm new and might screw up the quoting stuff

Thank u, Templar, very wise.

(FYI I am a girl)

Oh, whoops. Will refer to you as such from now on
(I'm leaving now)
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
Amiko
Profile Joined February 2014
United States1725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-21 16:28:44
June 21 2014 16:19 GMT
#360

@Nydus - Warning for editing posts (link)

As a reminder, do not edit posts in the thread. You can make a second post which corrects the first.


Editing:
Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a public warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of TL where it is okay to double post or even triple-post. While you should try to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.


Among other reasons, this is a rule so that people don't have different information depending on when they enter a thread and so you do not change/remove information you wrote earlier in the game
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